Here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-Combo/page90
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Here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-Combo/page90
I've been hesitant to post this for awhile since it's currently only been tested like ~20 times in goldfishing and won't see real play until this friday..
There's 2 consistent problems I'm having with Elves right now--granted, my deck is done, the list I posted is it's final form for generic play, but I always like changing things up and seeing what's new and what I can maybe do to try and fix things.
1.) I don't like that Emrakul is colorless and virtually unfetchable outside of Living Wish + I really, really hate living wish builds. (A slew of problems I had with the deck were solved by dropping that whole concept and outside of this one, no new problems arose)
2.) I don't like that the win conditions are generally swing oriented. Falling back on the aggro plan feels terrible and like I'm playing a really, really bad aggro deck (I'm referring to the shitty aggro plan, as I'd consider a massive warcaller or emrakul a successful combo) and that's actually somewhat frequent depending on the deck your playing. Key removal / discard effects can set you back into a never-able-to-combo state. I wanted something unique to elves that wasn't some variant of "ramp into big creature(s), win."
So to try and solve these issues I wanted a new win condition that was both fetchable, relatively easy to play, and would win the game if it resolved. Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is what I'm looking at right now. It was briefly brought up by Infinitum who played one in the sideboard, but no significant discussion seemed to pop up about the card. The reason I didn't want to post it here is it's not technically elf-combo, I removed Nettle Sentinels from the deck and upped the druid count--conveniently this adds a lot of mana production to the deck. Any elf that produces mana is a druid, even ones that don't say they are because they're too old: old Llanowar Elves don't tell you, Priests of Titania don't tell you, Fyndhorn Elves don't tell you, etc, but they've all been updated as druid creatures (much like there's a surprising number of awesome Elven warriors that aren't labelled as such).
Instead of the Elf combo it focuses more on untapping mana lords / cradles etc. It reliably steals your opponent's land on turn 3 or 4 and at that point they should concede, they'll be at 0 or 1 mana for the rest of the game, they can't win with that.
The nice thing about the Archdruid here is that every turn he's out is a combo turn without having to resolve a glimpse each time, he's larger than your average elf, and he's a win condition. So he's a tutorable win condition who is also a decent beater who is also a library-playing draw engine. It conveniently also follows the common quip about if you pay 5 mana for it you should win the game (which obviously doesn't really apply to Elves, I pay 7-8 mana for Regal Force all the time and it occasionally doesn't win me the game XD).
I was moderately worried about achieving 7 untapped druids, but it's surprisingly easy to do. Not only that, he's a lot easier to just glimpse combo into naturally than Emrakul.
I'm not saying this is the direction elves should go in, just sharing where I'm exploring with the deck. Currently I really like it, I can't tell if it's any more or less consistent than my finished list, in particular it's nice not having to rely so much on Glimpse to combo off and not really needing Regal Force. He went as well, which felt weird, but in testing it's been a non-issue. As a general statement, Regal Force is cast to save / set up another combo turn, Gilt-Leaf makes every turn a combo turn, draws way more cards for you than Regal Force does if not that turn, the next turn; and wins you the game on the spot at instant speed. It's also surprisingly convenient that he works with Heritage Druid and counts towards mana lord's tapping..
I dunno, food for thought maybe. I'll let you know how it works this friday, I can see a few problems with it but they seem relevant and in line with the problem elves has in general, so at the end they don't really feel that much like problems.. Part of this idea came from the listed issues I had above with the deck, and a lot of it came with realizing that I almost never use the Heritage / Nettle combo, so much so that removing Nettle Sentinels from the deck hasn't been noticeable. I lean a lot more towards lord + untapper.
If you're going with the full 8 big mana elves Concordant Crossroads is probably the only win condition you'll need (what with it being absurdly good with just about anything). I pair it up with Ezuri nowadays (essentially a 9 mana Overrun with GSZ) along with 4 Warcallers and just swing for the kill after generating the required card and mana advantage.
Not that Archdruid isn't good - it's still the in-tribe answer to Peacekeeper and Glacial Chasm, But Emrakul + Rath's Edge is the more efficient combination to fight through damage prevention in terms of sideboard space, and having an extra unplowable mana source is pretty good overall vs the decks that side Peacekeeper should you draw it.
Fauna Shaman is a versatile tutor, is in-tribe, and can beatdown when you need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
The few non-combat alternative that are useful are:Quote:
2.) I don't like that the win conditions are generally swing oriented.
1) Mortarpod - once you combo, you can take infinite turns with Emrakul, not tutorable.
2) Grapeshot/Tendrils of Agony - require Birchlore Rangers, and still not tutorable.
3) Primal Command - can be used to lock the opponent out, handles many of the problems the deck faces, but still not tutorable.
Hey! Thanks for the ideas! I should have been a little more specific--Fauna Shaman can indeed tutor Emrakul, but it has summoning sickness and can't do it on the combo turn which I'm not comfortable with. At the moment I'm really liking Gilt-Leaf, it doesn't win the game necessarily, but the only thing I can think of is if the opponent already had a creature with prot green on the table. Primal Command is interesting, surprisingly good too. I may have to find spots for them in the sideboard..Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
@Kich867
I play a tapping/untapping Elf version myself and it is fantastic. Concordant crossroads is great in my build because I drop just enough so that an Overrun + my elves get there. Lately I have been using Eldrazi Monument and when it sticks it's game. It's great at turning the tides when you've been put into defense after a whiffed glimpse.
Also, am I in the minority for using Biorhythm? It's amazing, instantly kills most combo. Most of the time you get there with 2-3 attacking 1/1's or control hard counters it.
Also, any Shusher fans out there? Cheap GSZ target for his impact and spanks for two.
Honestly, I'd like to try Biorhythm out again. It's surprising how easy it is to just like, randomly kill someone with 3 elves on the table. I tried it out first with a really, really bad build of Elves, but getting what, 9 mana? is absurdly easy to do with only a few elves and if it's early enough and they're playing a creature-light deck, it can end them pretty quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
I could see my finished elves deck throwing 2 in and see what happens, I'm glad there's people trying things out like that, exploration is key.
SCG Nashville Quarter Finals - Riley Curran (Elves) 0 : 2 Chris VanMeter (U/W Stoneblade)
You can watch the match later here: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...le.html#Legacy
Top 16 Decklists: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...city=Nashville
Riley Curran's decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=41208
Maindeck:
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
2 Mirror Entity
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Chord of Calling
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard:
1 Mortarpod
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
Congratulations to Riley for making top8!
P.S: What's your take on this deck Ross? :)
I think the combo decks were unable to beat the hate presented this weekend, and Riley managed to dodge them. This is not a strategy I think is effective in the current metagame, as this deck is built to beat decks that play fairly. (and still has no good way to fight through sweepers) I wouldn't touch this deck.
You'd probably get better results just playing NO/Aggro Elves if you wanted to play that, and it's far more similar to that deck anyway. But, topic for a different place.
Kich, could you post this list?
Sure, I played it and it went pretty good. I beat Bant aggro 2-0, then flashless hulk combo 2-0, and lost 1-2 to merfolk to a misplay.
I was also accidentally playing with 62 cards, no idea. Somehow a full playset of something I only wanted 2 of ended up in there and I didn't realize it until midway through and couldn't remove it.
If I'm not mistaken, since it's not on me atm, the list is this:
//Creatures: 31
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Priest of Titania
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Arbor Elf
4x Heritage Druid
3x Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
3x Wirewood Symbiote
2x Quirion Ranger
2x Elvish Visionary
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Viridian Zealot
//Spells: 14
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Glimpse of Nature
2x Crop Rotation
//Lands: 15
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Wirewood Lodge
1x Pendelhaven
13x Forest
//Sideboard: 15
4x Summoning Trap
4x Elvish Champion
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Krosan Grip
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Xantid Swarm
I feel like I'm missing something obvious as I can't recall if those numbers are right but, if they aren't right that's probably what I should be running.
The list runs 23 druids..uhhm. Yeah. I mean when it hits it wins, it never not won me a game when I stole their land. They either conceded or played it out being dazed and confused about what to do.
Not having Nettle Sentinels can hurt sometimes but it's largely not an issue unless you somehow have no tappable mana lord on the table and strictly must go off with the nettle combo, which in my experience, with like 6 months with the deck, has happened 5 or fewer times. When I fizzle with this deck it's because the combo fizzled and nettles wouldn't have helped me draw through those 3 lands.
I'm not convinced this list is better than my previous list if only because Emrakul ends the game when he hits and Regal Force fills your hand hard, it is however, incredibly fun.
The biggest problem with the idea of stealing their land as a win condition is what I feared it would be, but I had no idea that it would actually be relevant as often as it was. If you don't go off like turn 3 with it, then odds are they play threats, and if that threat is prot green or flies, even after you steal their land you are required to race them. This was relevant against Merfolk (I won anyways but it was close).
Also, Pendelhaven was an absolute boss. I misplayed a lot with it, but if you have pendelhaven and wirewood symbiote down, Jitte / Lavamancer can't kill anything...Merfolk beat me strictly with Jitte, but it was my fault, I lost a lot of elves I didn't have to because I wasn't thinking clearly and I had a lot of chances to remove it that I didn't take, it was bad play, and if I had to do it again, I should beat it fairly confidently.
Getting 7 untapped elves isn't necessarily difficult, but sometimes it requires waiting until next turn which can be dangerous. In the future, I'll be planning to combo off, get a critical mass of elves, and EOT pact for archdruid so they have little time to respond to it. The key is playing it right and not treating gilt-leaf like a normal elf I think.
I'm also thinking of dropping Crop Rotations out, I put 2 in with the idea that, essentially, they're a lord or an untapper--whichever I need at the moment--but this almost never came up. In fact, in 7 games I never saw them, and I've almost never seen them, and they've almost never been relevant, when I'm running this much mana production I don't exactly need it.
I like the sound of Primal Command however, I'll likely drop CR's out of my main list for 2x Primal Command's as a means to fetch emrakul...agh! Sorry I write so much XD!
--Aside: In the post mental misstep era, I'm greatly enjoying this deck. It still has issues that I rant about (being the only combo deck susceptible to every form of hate possible) but without mental misstep everything feels manageable...my Llanowar Elf turn 1 isn't being free-countered (god is that such a set back..), they don't have 8 free counters to glimpse, etc. After ditching the living wish build and finally getting my fourth glimpse / every possible card I could think of to interact with the deck, I'm actually having a ton of fun playing it whereas I previously played it because it was a competitive inexpensive deck. As I gain experience with it, I'm finding new tricks and maneuvers to put me a little further ahead here and there and the correct plays are feeling more obvious and clearer than they were before.
i played elves for a while pre misstep and now that it is banned have been looking to try and play it again.
im looking for a list that would be good against a field that is filled with stoneforge/snapcaster decks like uw, bug and junk type decks and pretty much 0 combo decks that are faster than elves
nicefirstpostdudeQuote:
Originally Posted by jrich
ive posted b4 just forgot my account so i made a new one, just looking for advice on elves cause i havent played it in a while and it seems like it would do well in my local metaQuote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
Grand Prix - Amsterdam
Top32 Decklists: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050
Congratulations to Samuel Poulain, the guy who led an Elves deck to an awesome 13rd place in this high level 1878 player event!
Here's the deck list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51155
Maindeck:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Mirror Entity
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Vengevine
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Crop Rotation
3 Chord of Calling
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Children of Korlis
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Absolute Law
On a personal note, this list looks nasty. Has the 4 Birchlore wich allows us to go off on turn 2, has the Vengevines, has a versatile sideboard and has 1 Crop Rotation along with 3 Gaea's Cradle.
The deck looks good overall and I'm looking forward to test it.
Your thoughts on it?
My thoughts are probably the same thoughts I keep thinking whenever I see an elf combo list make some high ranking. It seems to never follow what this thread is talking about and is always splashed with something.
I like the list a lot, and I'm wondering why Mirror Entity isn't the norm over Emrakul. Going infinite with Wirewood Symbiote is pretty boss, I like the look of that list a lot.
I've tried to defend Mirror entity so many times on this thread, but people don't seem to get how Broken he is.
I LOVE the list, and it opens a few new things to debate.
-Chord of Calling over Summoner's pact?
If we are going 4x Birchlore for T2 combo, Pacts are a must to be consistant, but Chord fetches Entity and opens up Korlis (crazy against ANT), but is it really worth it?
-Why is he playing only a total of 3 Llanowars* and 3 Quirion? That looks quite weird and not explosive, specially since he only has 12 first turn mana producing lands. I'll have to test how it actually works out, but I would cut 2 Fauna & Arbor in this list for 2 Llanowars and 1 Fetchland.
I don't know, the list looks fun and innovative! Straight down to the test. How come isn't everyone debating? Everyone testing? ^^
I'm still figuring out the deck a little. I'm still figuring out how to use the Fauna Shaman to her fully potential and making the right decisions with this list. I haven't played this kind of elves for a long time and I'm a little off.
p.s: where are you Ross?
I bet this plays very similar to how Mono green Survival/Vengevine played, only slower. It's pretty easy to switch from Beatdown to Combo (via Mirror Entity/Chord of Calling).
I still like casting Emrakul plan better however, since it guarantees victory when cast.
Compare the list with: (Intuition VV Elves by Matt Nass/Greg Hatch)
Creatures [30]
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Arbor Elf
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Vengevine
4 Wirewood Symbiote
Instants [8]
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
Sorceries [4]
4 Glimpse of Nature
Lands [18]
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
The first thing I notice is that he only has 3 Green Sun's Zenith, which can't be right. I also don't like the MD Vengevine plan right now, as speed is the only way you can win the ANT and Reanimator match-ups. Fauna Shaman is painfully slow and often just eats a lightning bolt/plow, putting you down 1 mana. Chord similarly seems very inefficient compared to Pact, but I guess he wants to hit non-green bullets post-sideboard. Mirror Entity is miles better than Emrakul in his list since he runs a white splash, and Entity isn't a dead draw.
I will never agree with less than 4 Gaea's Cradle. If you want to run a Crop Rotation as a fifth copy I could get behind that, but Cradle is far and away the best card in the deck. Even if you draw all 4, you're still better off than if you'd have drawn 4 forests since you'll often be making more than 4 with the single Cradle in play. With the number of Wastelands in the format I'd prefer running more, since having the backup after they use their land drop to waste your first one is backbreaking.
Overall I dislike this list a lot, and that's without mentioning the awkward number of Llanowars. (a virtual 6 with Zenith) The draws with a turn 1 mana dork are much better than those without it, especially considering his list wants to curve into Vengevine or turn 2 Zenith for Shaman to start the chain. He seems to have positioned the deck awkwardly between the two plans, selecting some slots to move towards the combo shell (notably the 4 MD Birchlore Rangers which I guess also help to cast Mirror Entity) and others to move towards a Vengevine aggro shell. (Chord of Calling over Pact, 3 MD Fauna Shaman) I also dislike his sideboard, as it's just a bunch of bullets, although he seems to have correctly recognized that the SB should just focus on the Combo and GY match-ups, since most of the others are byes. I'd probably add some answer to Grim Lavamancer, as RUG decks seem to be on the rise with Delver of Secrets giving them an upgrade on Nimble Mongoose.