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Rock has access to Thrun, the lever-action shotgun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEKN-NHg6Rk
Skip to 1 min in to get to the point.
Ash being Rock, the Witch being blue based control.
Choke is good against them, Deed, Thrun, Vindicate, Hymn, 3-drops, etc. They can't get you on ALL fronts. I think if you're packing Deeds or EE and Thrun, you should be okay. Grip is also really good.
-Matt
Two flex slots...Chains of meph or Choke?
If you're playing against a ton of SoFF, Chains. Cool factor? Chains. Not so much SoFF? Choke.
-Matt
Thrun seems good but what about in a non-zenith build? 2-of in the board?
When my meta was all landstill, I played it as a 2-of. If you're got GSZ, I'd still play 2.
But, my meta has shifted to Aggro-Control, so I'm on the more aggro plan myself. I think Deed is really good right now, and probably the best card you have against Maverick.
-Matt
Maverick has never given me trouble, though I do think deed is a must-play in the board right now in most metas.
SFM is an absolute boss against your typical aggro/midrange/control builds (Read: Bant, Rock, Deadguy, Maverick, etc.) due to the ability to bring in the swords from the board. Resolved sword usually spells scoop for those builds. Right now I'm running SoLaS and SoBaM and thinking about adding SoFaI for fish and gobs.
Hi everyone,
I've started playing the rock, and I enjoy it quite alot. I started with a non-SFM build but decided to put them in and it works better for me.
I currently run a SFM non-GSZ build, and my main issue is that I don't know how to board G2/G3. It's always close games (most of the time), but I don't seem to be able to pull the last string to win. I'm usually in situations where I die the turn before I'd win.
My meta is extremly blue-orientated (Rug, U/B control, reanimator etc).
Is a tutor board the way to go? I've thought of going something like this:
Board:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Tormonds Cryps
1 Reliq of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Choke
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
My deck:
CREATURES (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
SORCERIES (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (6)
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Mox Diamond
LANDS (24)
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Plains
If you're in a blue based meta, I suggest some of the following:
Grip> Claim: Uncounterable, kills CB easily and Equipment.
Extirpate> Crypt (sometimes). Uncounterable removal against Reanimator.
The Enlightened Tutor board is valid, don't get me wrong. But, if you're seeing a ton of blue, especially blue based aggro control (RUG Tempo, BUG Tempo, Esperblade, etc.) you'll want to have the actual copies, not the virtual E. Tutor copies.
I'd suggest:
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog (you've got Knight, why not?:tongue:)
2 Pernicious Deed (goodbye Counterbalance!)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
+4 Slots
The 4 slots could be more gravehate, extra removal, Thrun, extra discard against combo, etc. I think as of right now, the sideboard "staples" seem to be 2-4 gravehate, 1-3 Deed, 2-3 extra 1-2 CMC removal, 1-3 Grip, 0-4 Choke.
Hope this helps!
-Matt
@sdematt
Thanks for the help, although I'm still not convinced that a board with no tutors would do it for me. One of my main reasoningings is that if you have tutors, you'll never have to fear getting your answer discarded or revealed. Decks like reanimator etc often board in thoughtsieze (if they dont keep them in main), and look at your hand/potential answers before going off. Most blue control decks also run cliques, and also there the tutors hides/protects your answers.
Even for combo like TES/ANT, I think tutor is the way. Sure you can board in extra discard that will delay the opponent a turn or two, or have a tutor and play a turn 2 undiscardable Ethersworn/Chalice which pretty much wins you the game.
Understandable, especially if you're in a combo meta. I'm coming from a very aggro slanted, combo light meta, so I'm a bit biased.
-Matt
My friends and I have been debating Beast Within in the Vindicate slot. Some advantages that we have come up with are:
It's easier to cast with Wasteland heavy hands.
A 3/3 is not insignificant in the early game, but your creatures are going to be so much bigger. Given the opportunity to play a Beast Within on an opponent's turn and then untap and use mana on my turn, or wait and then decide between either playing a threat or destroying their threat, I would always pick the former.
A 3/3 beast will take 7 turns to kill you, 6 if you use 1 or 2 Thoughtseize. A sword on a Stoneforge or a Sword of Feast and Famine on Bob will completely negate the 3/3.
It can be used positively, when your opponent has to top deck a removal spell, only to have it effectively countered by a Beast Within, and you lumber in for the kill. If you have two Tarmogoyf and they use Echoing Truth, since it loses it's target it fizzles and you get a 3/3 and a goyf instead of having to recast two Tarmogoyfs. Further, if Bob is killing you, you can trade it in for a 3/3 vanilla creature that doesn't kill you, instead of just having to Vindicate or Swords it.
If Perish had a kicker that was discard a card to destroy any permanent, it would be played in every deck that has black available. That's almost what you are getting by playing Beast Within. Play Beast Within on their upkeep, so they can't attack and then play Perish (assuming that they have other green creatures, of course)... Waiting for Merfolk to use the mana to pump up Coralhelm Commander and try to fly over will be embarrasing for them when they lose the mana, the lord, and the flying.
There are so many applications when giving yourself a 3/3 could end the game, too. Have an extra Top? Make it a 3/3. You can tap it to draw a card, then Beast Within it and still draw the card. Opponent uses a Qasali Pridemage to kill your equipment? Make your equipment a 3/3 and have their Pridemage die.
The versatility of an instant speed Vindicate, IMO, is worth a 3/3 beast.
Thoughts?
Sure, Beat Within is a nice instant, don't get me wrong, but you can't just go out and say it is inconsequential. I've killed many opponents by having my crap Beasted, and then just beating in.
It's great due to its instant speed, but that's all it has got going for it. The 3/3 is of no consequence when you're already slightly ahead. If you're in Topdeck mode and need to kill a Jace, sure the 3/3 isn't as bad as an ultimate-ready Jace, but it's still not great.
If Vindicate were an instant, you'd obviously have no case whatsoever, unless you were mono green. But, as an instant, I can see your point. Surprise removal off of 2+G is decent, especially when they, say, swing with Equipment then you gank them. Test it more and tell us about it.
Right now, I'm testing a newer list with a ton of testing that I did on Saturday against Tempo and Maverick, since they will be our biggest enemies (they're pretty popular at the moment, kiddos).
I've got two builds here: One is SFM, one is GSZ. Yes, I know Ian that both are working great for you, but I was getting ganked in both ends on Saturday. First, a list of observations:
1) You're the control deck versus tempo (obv, but true). Sometimes, casting SFM is a huge liability, and the investment usually turns into tutoring something that won't affect the board state (since the SFM gets countered, Stifled, or Bolted). I found it was pretty bad in this matchup, but fine in many other matchups.
2) The reason why SFM is so good in Maverick is because of the mana backup you have. Noble means you don't get Dazed, or have an extra mana just to do something else on turn 2, or, even if they kill it, you're still at mana parity the next turn. sure, you derdled for a turn with SFM, but now you're back on track. Here, we've used up a whole turn and don't have too much to show for it.
3) Knight is the greasiest mother fuck around, at the moment. Tempo can't stop him unless they Bolt/Bolt, Dismember early, Dismember/Bolt, etc. Once he's online, the game is usually over soon. GSZ makes it even better.
My point here is, most of the time, you'll want max Goyfs/Knights.
4) Ooze is a fucking beating. Because Knight is so popular, Ooze is just that much better, same as Goyf. Murdering their Goyfs with Ooze is great, but hurts the fuck out of you. But, it's really good against the whole small creatures slant that most decks are taking. My point? Pack extra removal for Ooze. You NEED to kill it, especially against Maverick.
Because of this, without adieu, my updated list. Birds are pretty good; colour fixing and being a blocker, in my books, makes it better than the Moxen, which eat your own lands and are crap later on. At least you can chuck a Bird under the bus.
24 land manabase (the usual)
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Birds of Paradise (these were pretty good when I got them. Colour fixing=awesome)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Top
3 Vindicate
4 Swords
1 Path to Exile
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
BOARD:
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
Post board, you have 9 pieces of 1 CMC removal against Tempo along with 3 Vindicate, along with Deed. Against Maverick, same thing, expect you also get the Ruin, which hoses them more than you, plus you get Ooze and Grip. Again Combo, you get Thoughtseize, Extirpate, and Teeg. Reanimator/Dredge are similar in boarding.
Thoughts?
-Matt
doesn't everyone play SOFF now?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Hi Matt,
Long term junk player, not much posting tho
Just a quick glance at your list (an i havent tested it as im addicted to the moxes) but i have been plaing a GSZ for some time and am loving the maindeck Scavaging Ooze, so im proposing - 1 Birds of Paradise or Tarmogoyf, + Ooze, and i also think that Hymn needs to be a 4 of, and the only card i could consider cutting is Top or a Ghastly,
The biggest problem I have is against Maverick, do you have a good EV against this deck?
You'll get no argument from me on this. I've had much success but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone. I could just as easily 0-2 my next one because of it. Either way, I'll stay out of judging deck types and instead just give advice if mentioned (hehe. you mentioned me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I do have a different theory here though. I say get aggressive. Swing for the fences. Drop your 3/4 Goyf (play around the bolt if you can), force them to blow stifles on mystics (those are effects later). If they can't, get a Jitte. Suddenly they have to figure it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
OH, don't fetch forests if you don't have to. Submerge is a dangerous card here. Knights should be swinging if you have a forest (or getting rid of them if you can afford). If you do need a forest, only get one, and if you're going to use knight. Use it on that forest. They can't cheat submerge in response as you no longer have a forest.
My point here, "Force them to play control." They've got reach so if you try to hide behind things, they'll shoot you. Just remember, Wasteland and Stifle exist.
I agree with the rest of "1)"
The Noble just forces them to have the bolt as well. Older players tend to kill the Noble out of habit, "Kill the first turn bird." Newer players tend to think, "I can use this on something real." Honestly, I've been in this for a while and I love having my t1 bird survive. It wins games.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
On that note, the bird fills a similar role as the Mox. Explosive starts, consistent finishes. Either way, both produce green allowing you to not get submerged.
AMEN! But, I now have Samuel Jackson screaming this in my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Fighting against Ooze can be tricky. If you can't kill it, try to force them to use it how you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Example: If you've got an Ooze, use it to eat 1 creature they'd trying to eat at the end of their turn. Fight over it using the stack. Eat the rest of the remaing things when you untap.
That will keep their Ooze's size in check and allow your ooze to dominate their Knight(s). Still hold your bogs for the Knight vs Knight fights. You have more answers to their Ooze than they do to your creatures. Especially post board.
-----
The theory changes a little when you're playing against Maverick but you can use some of the principles. The biggest difference is that YOU ARE THE CONTROL.
That does not mean that you kill everything in site, but that you understand that your countdown, is your life total. If it's not a REAL threat, leave it be. I'm sure that the experienced players will agree when I say "Mother of Ruins is ALWAYS A THREAT."
If you're not familiar with fighting MoM, I'd suggest you get a couple matches in against her. She likes to be tricky and with some lists having access to Scryb Ranger they can put a stone in your path pretty quick.
A couple quick tips
1) Kill MoM before she's active - She can't protect herself on the first turn.
2) Mass removal and Equipment kill MoM... and she is the target - Colorless sources and mass removal are out of her control.
3) 1 MoM means protection from 1 color - Keep your available creatures' color as varied as possible. That doesn't mean go play Wild Mongrel.
4) Force MoM's hand if you can - If you force them to tap her blocking damage, you can exploit the 1 less use of that MoM.
Without MoM, you're only fighting Knights and Swords, plan accordingly.
-----
Now, on to your list (and I promise I won't judge ;)
I would recommend recalculating the needs of your manabase. The color requirements may have changed since the last time.
Just wondering, why the split between the additional 1cc removal. Testing? Expectations? On that, remember that they can bog/Ooze your yard in response to a Ghastly to stop it, the spell will still resolve though.
That's all I got. No real changes outside of possibly the manabase. I will say that you should look into Liliana. She's a way to keep their creatures/hand under control as well. Usually warrants a counter or they usually lose.
@ Stealth
Maverick isn't terrible, since you have access to Deed and Grip. Just remember that they might be packing Grip too, so if you need to blow the Deed, don't wait.
@Damion
The split of removal is due to: Path against Stoneblade is awful, just awful. Ghastly is great in the sense that it doesn't accelerate them. I think they're two different removals against two different gameplans, and I really haven't decided which is better in general.
I'll definitely have to look at the manabase. Right now, it's:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Any suggestions before my tourney tomorrow?
-Matt
Your manabase looks fine to me. It doesn't need any changes to accomplish the goal.
Me being paranoid about matchups though... I'd probably cut a Scrub for another fetch (Flats) and add a Bog over a Bayou. That'd bring you up to 9 fetches (7 Black, 6 Green, 5 White) which is almost more than the number of lands you can fetch so you'd have to pay attention to that but, you'd be able to filter lands out and improve draws. You can always put the extra's to reveal to Bob. If they stifle you'll have enough lands (and selection with them) to think of it as a discard spell that costs 1 life.
@ Matt
I think Tower of the Magistrate could find a spot in your main. Obviously it depends on your meta, but I see a ton of Stoneforge tactics right now.
I've found Tower to be super derdly, since it gets Wastelanded a ton, and having more off-colour lands in this deck is tough. I can give it a try, but I've got Grips and Qasali to do most of my Equipment crushing. It's a card, though, so I'll give it some thought :)
-Matt
Maverick isn't that hard for us, at worst I'd say it's 50/50 but I'm usually more confident than that against it. Mother of Runes is certainly one of their primary threats, and Aven Mindcensor can be a bitch for Fetching and if you're running Mystics (I don't). 3x Pernicious Deed out of the board as well as a couple Darkblast shores up the match pretty well for me. Plow their Mom every chance you get!
I went to Jupiter Games last month with the following list and placed 12th out of 67:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Choke
2 Darkblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I don't have my notes in front of me, but I'll see if I can quickly summarize my matches:
Round 1 vs. B/W Deadguy:
This match was by far my longest and hard fought on the day. We went to 3 games, and all three were long attrition matches with very interactive plays on both sides. I pulled out a win by the skin of my teeth in game 3 on the back of several relevant topdecks (Krosan Grip, Vindicate, etc.). B/W Discard has always been a fun "mirror" match, but this was one for the books.
1-0
Round 2 vs. BUG:
I don't even know what style BUG he was on, but I'm pretty sure it was the usual suspects with Snapcaster Control as the core. This is largely because I drew 4 Wastelands in Game 1, and 2 more + a Choke in game 2. He never had a chance, and I felt bad Wasting him out of an otherwise very challenging match. I think he played a couple Ghastly Demises or something. :tongue:
2-0
Round 3 vs. Bryant Cook with TES:
(if you read his tournament report, he refers to me as "Nate from Boston", but my name is actually "Matt from Boston". No worries though Bryant.)
Game 1 he turned 2s me I think. I had him pinned on RUG for a hot second there, but it wouldn't have mattered unless I had known to mulligan aggressively for discard spells. Game 2 I had some disruption and landed 2 Goyfs, though he may have dealt with one of them. The other one got there before he could draw business. Game 3 I think he went off again on like turn 2, but check his report for more details as mine are foggy.
I went into the tourney knowing I was a little soft to Storm Decks, so I didn't feel terrible about losing to Bryant. I do need to test this matchup more to really learn it's ins and outs, but nonblue decks always have a bit of trouble with combo. At least I got him to 3 games!
2-1
Round 4 vs. RUG Tempo
I'm pretty sure he was on the Delver plan. He got some bad draws though, and I was somewhat careful about getting Stifled out of the game. I basically overwhelmed him with better card quality and pressure, can't remember if he got a game or not.
3-1
Round 5 vs. U/W/b Blade
Probably the second hardest match of the day, after Deadguy. The player was extremely nice and we got along quite well, so losing wasn't the worst experience ever, but I do think I made a few critical play mistakes. To be fair though, he probably cast Brainstorm nearly 10 times in 3 games (thanks to Snapcaster, yes), and always at the right time. I hear that card is good in Legacy.
3-2
Round 6 vs. Merfolk
I lost Game 1 pretty quickly, but I wasn't worried in the slightest. Our Merfolk matchup is pretty strongly favorable, and they usually only get 1 free win per match. I proceeded to crush him Games 2 and 3. Choke! for the win.
4-2
Round 7 vs. RUG Tempo
He conceded pretty quickly in Game 2 after I landed a Choke backed by a couple Wastelands and pressure. RUG should usually be a tough enough matchup for us, I think I just got lucky both times I played against it.
5-2
My breakers weren't good enough to catapult me into Top 8, but that was fine since we had 6 hours of driving ahead of us. I happily bought an Italian (not FBB though) Volcanic Island with my $75 cred and rolled out of there pretty happy with my purchase. Hooray for Breaking into Blue (finally), but I still love Junk.
MVP of the Day: Choke. This card was the nuts everytime I played it, except of course when the U/W/b deck landed a SoFAF.
Favorite 7-card Keep of the day: Elspeth, Liliana, Fetch, Fetch, Dual, Wasteland, Mox Diamond. I knew if I could survive the first 2 turns and draw a little more business I would be in the game. I won with 2 planeswalkers in play and he never knew what him him. Game 2 he sided out some of his removal and was surprised by my Goyfs!