Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I actually always bring in 4 chalice against affinity when on the play, I think they are absolutelly awsome. When you set them @0 they buy you that one turn without creature where lackey connets and wins you the game. they can t play mox opal, memnite and ornithopter. Without ornithopter (flying) cranial plating is less scarry and you usually have one removal for signal pest. etched champion is the real problem but I don t see what to do about it anyway and some lists don t run it. Anyway, without the 0 drops they have more difficulties getting metalcraft.
Against affinity it is a race, if you stop half of their creatures it suddenly starts to look much better. I highly recommend chalice against affinity when on the play. On the draw I wouldn t know.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Went 3-1 at a tournament last night playing the following...
4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
9x Mountain
6x Fetchlands
4x Goblin Lackey
2x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-gang Commander
1x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Stingscourger
1x Mogg Fanatic
1X Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Chieftain
1X Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Goblin Piledriver
4x Aether Vial
3x Tarfire
1X Pyrokinesis
SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Anarchy
1 Pyrokinesis
R1 ANT
G1 I was on the draw and kept an explosive Lackey hand. My opponent T1 Duresses me, gets nothing. I play Lackey. he doesn't go off T2. I attack and put a Matron and Piledriver into play. He doesn't go off T3. I attack him down to 10 and put some more stuff in. He draws for T4 and scoops.
Sideboard: +4 Leyline of the Void, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Chalice, +1 Thorn
-Pyrokinesis, Vial, Gemaplm, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, Scrappers, 2 Tarfires
G2 My openning 7 is awful against any deck, so I mull to 6 and hit 5 lands, so I mull to 5 and hit 4 lands, so I mull to 4 and keep a hand with a Fanatic and no hate. Really bad mulls considering the 12 cards I just sided in. I kept those 4, but I really should have kept mulling. Lost.
G3 I mull to 6 and finally draw some hate, but it's just a Leyline of the Void. I thought Leyline might give me time to luck into drawing a Mindbreak or Chalice/Thorn, but no dice. I T1 Mountain. He T1 Duresses me, I Tarfire him in response. I draw nothing worthwhile T2 (Trap/Chalice/Thorn would have been helpful). He goes off T2 through the Leyline. The Ad Nauseum takes him down to 1 life, but gives him everything he needs to win. Damn, that's a good deck.
0-1
We played 2 games for fun afterward, and every game I could never draw any sideboard hate besides the Leyline of the Void (which is or course the wrong leyline to draw). I lost all of those too. Moral of the Story: Leyline of the Void is not enough against Storm combo. You're going to have to mull to a hand with at least 2 pieces of combo hate, preferably Leyline of Sanctity + Trap/Chalice/Thorn, and you're alos going to want some way of putting some pressure on. This MU is just evil for us.
I wonder if choosing to be on the draw could ever be the right decision against Storm? With my build I'm really just hoping to land a T0 Leyline of Sanctity and then draw into something playable. Dunno. I've never really tested the MU and haven't had that many chances to play against it.
R2 Bant
G1 My totally awesome, game changing Pyrokinesis to clear his board gets FoW'd. And I lose. Plus, He GSZ's for that commander card that lets the controller of any creature that deals combat damage to his opponent draw a card, so he snuck a Heirarch through for a little CA there. Nice.
G2 He kinda stalls and draws too many lands. So I get there.
G3 He gets a Jitte hooked up on a Snapcaster, then GSZ's for a Rafiq, swings with Snapcaster, gets double counters, kills 2 of my 4 guys. I can't remember why I didn't block, but it didn't matter. I still had a Warchief in play somehow, and I Matroned looking for Sharpshooter since his board was 2 Heirarch, Snapcaster, and Rafiq (and Jitte with 0 counters). When I searched my Library I realized I had sided out my Sharpshooter for Anarchy this game. Ouch. It would have been a real blowout had I left him in. Instead I grabbed a Piledriver instead, since he could at least Chump the equipped Snapcaster. My opponent didn't do anything relevant his turn. I ripped a Pyrokinesis like a champ and cast it the next turn when my opponent cast a Sword of Red and White, and as he equipped it to his Snapcaster (so he could run past my Piledriver FTW) I Pyro'd his Snapcaster and Rafiq. I swung for lethal on my turn. he had to chum with his last, lonely Heirarch to stay alive as his equipment sat idly by. Then a won. Helluva game.
1-1
R3 UR Delver
G1 I win the roll and keep a hand with Lackey, 2x Winstigator, gas, and 1 Mountain. Well shit, I have a T1 play and just need to rip a Mountain to have an awesome 2 drop. Keep. He has the Bolt for my Lackey. I don't draw another moutnain for like 4 turns. There was one point in the game where I could have gotten back in it. He had a Delver and Lavamancer on board. I Tarfired the Delver to reduce his clock and Stingscourgered the Lavamancer to keep it offline and give me a turn to draw some removal and get back in it. No dice. Lost.
G2 I sided in and drew a Chalice of the Void. I played a T1 Lackey that got bolted, then a T2 Chalice @ 1 that wasn't countered. My opponent scooped with a hand full of 1drops.
G3 I landed a T1 Vial and things just went well for me from there. I was able to burn out his creatures and play/draw more of mine. Vial @3 into Matron into Ringleader is such a beating against UR.
2-1
R4 Punishing Maverick
G1 I Keep a 1 land hand that has 2 Lackeys and 2 Vials on the play. I know he's playing Maverick and has removal a-plenty, and I don't have much for mana resources, so i go the Vial route. I play Vial, he plays a land. I play a Lackey, he Swordseses it. he plays an Ooze. I wind up drawing another Vial and my board is soon Vial @1, Vial @2, Vial @3. I Vial in a Matron and grab a Tarfire, with which I kill his Ooze since there are no creatures in the graveyard for him to remove to pump it. I start hitting Ringleaders soon thereafter. Good times. Even with his recurring Punishing Fires I'm putting way too many green dudes on the tables. I win.
G2 This one's pretty intense too. The biggest play on the game for me was when he cast a KotR with a Scryb Ranger in play too. He had 3 cards in hand, but the way the previous turns had gone it was safe to assume he was holding removal, not creatures. I had 2 Pyrokinesis and 2 Goblins in hand (Ringleader and Warchief). I didn't have the lands to cast the Ringleader, so I pitched my hand to cast both Pyros and clear his board. The game was essentially reset and i just hoped to draw a Ringleader or answers before he landed another fatty. He eventually drew and played a KotR, I had drawn and was sandbagging an Anarchy which I cast to kill the Knight. He had a third KotR to follow up the Anarchy, but I had started to draw gas and his life total was low enough that he couldn't attack. I used Wasteland to keep his Groves of the Burnwillows off the board, and managed to grind out the W.
3-1
The deck worked great. It drew well. I didn't feel I needed any more SB cards than Pyro in most MUs. I think the overwhelmingly anti-combo SB is a good way to go right now, with a few Anarchys thrown in there. I got very unlucky in the ANT MU when I didn't draw my most relevant hate. Still, it was my decision not to mull further. That's a MU where it really is acceptable to Mull into oblivion, cause you just won't win without doing so.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Obviously, Chalice is a better on almost all levels but thorn allows you to still play your normal game with vials. With Chalice, you have to side out tarfires, vials and lackey to set at 1.
Personally, chalice against affinity is a gamble that you can take if you are on play. If you managed to mull into it and set as 0, you have most likely won the game. But you if don't, you can't race them very well without vial and it is a totally dead card on further draws.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wert
Obviously, Chalice is a better on almost all levels but thorn allows you to still play your normal game with vials. With Chalice, you have to side out tarfires, vials and lackey to set at 1.
Personally, chalice against affinity is a gamble that you can take if you are on play. If you managed to mull into it and set as 0, you have most likely won the game. But you if don't, you can't race them very well without vial and it is a totally dead card on further draws.
I don t agree. You don t have to side out all your one drops when you play chalice, even in those MU where you would set it @1. You can open with T1 lackey/vial and T2 chalice @1, that is pretty broken. Anyway, I often side out vials when I bring in chalice because vial is bad in those MU no matter what. If you then play pyrokinesis you can use your topdeck lackey to pay the alternative cost. In MU where you need chalice @1 having a dead lackey in hand it doesn t really matter, chalice @1 can win you the game by itself.
Chalice @0 won me so many games vr affinity I wouldn t call it a gamble at all. I think chalice and pyrokinesis are among the best (reasonable) answers to affinity for a goblin SB. However, against affinity I never mull into oblivion to find chalice at any cost... Nevertheless, it justify to keep even a hand without T1 drop IMO.
From my testing T1 chalice @0 on the play is a gg against affinity.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
@jrw1985: nice done, there is not much to do about the game vr ANT, you had great sideboard against it, unlucky draws. How about the 4 + 2 lords? I think that 6 effects "everybody has haste" is a bit too much. I mean, they loose a bit value when they are on the battlefield on multiples. On the other hand, +1/+1 effects are great and they are never too much. I would see more profitable to include goblin king after the 4 chieftain. Also, it improves the RUG MU quite a lot and RUG is pretty popular right now.
In general your list is a bit of a mix between the "new" WI+chiftain and the "old" piledriver+warchief. Do you think it plays well balanced? Do the priviledges of one conpensate the other or do you feel that sometimes you don t know how to build up your game plan (tempo vr beatdown)? I fear that sometimes you wish to topdeck the +1/+1 ability and you find "goblins cost 1 less to cast" and the other way around.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wert
Obviously, Chalice is a better on almost all levels but thorn allows you to still play your normal game with vials. With Chalice, you have to side out tarfires, vials and lackey to set at 1.
Personally, chalice against affinity is a gamble that you can take if you are on play. If you managed to mull into it and set as 0, you have most likely won the game. But you if don't, you can't race them very well without vial and it is a totally dead card on further draws.
Chalice set at 1 and Thorn are essentially the same in a lot of match-ups without some way to accelerate into the Chalice. They both come down on the same turn, and they both slow down or stop a combo deck in it's tracks. Objectively, Chalice is better because it's harder to remove from the board once you cast it...but if your only goal is to slow them down long enough to win they both get you there.
As for boarding something like Chalice in against affinity - I'm not sure I agree. Yes, they play quite a few zero drops, but it's the Cranial Plating that's the problem and Chalice does nothing there. I'm happy to let my opponent sit around with a board full of 0/2 dudes and a Mox Opal. I much prefer cards like Pyrokinesis, Shattering Spree, and Pulverize as they deal with the actual threats and not just some useless vanilla dorks. Further, I find that our match-up vs. affinity is already pretty good pre-board, and it only gets better after.
In non-combo match-ups like burn, Chalice vs. Thorn is still a toss up. Objectively, Chalice at 1 stops burn better, but a resolved Thorn is also often GG for them.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fimo
@jrw1985: nice done, there is not much to do about the game vr ANT, you had great sideboard against it, unlucky draws. How about the 4 + 2 lords? I think that 6 effects "everybody has haste" is a bit too much. I mean, they loose a bit value when they are on the battlefield on multiples. On the other hand, +1/+1 effects are great and they are never too much. I would see more profitable to include goblin king after the 4 chieftain. Also, it improves the RUG MU quite a lot and RUG is pretty popular right now.
In general your list is a bit of a mix between the "new" WI+chiftain and the "old" piledriver+warchief. Do you think it plays well balanced? Do the priviledges of one conpensate the other or do you feel that sometimes you don t know how to build up your game plan (tempo vr beatdown)? I fear that sometimes you wish to topdeck the +1/+1 ability and you find "goblins cost 1 less to cast" and the other way around.
@fimo: Haste-y goblins are happy goblins. I will take haste over mountainwalk any day of the week. The explosiveness of Goblins absolutley comes from their ability to attack first. Dumping your hand is fine and good and all, but it doesn't much matter if your opponent just Wraths the next turn. Having a board full of haste allows you to overextend and get at least one massive attack off before a board sweeper comes along. Then, after a sweep, you just drop another haste enabler and go back at it.
I think the 2/2 Piledriver/Winstigator split is awesome in the 2-drop slot. And it doesn't confuse the game plan. If anything, it opens more lines of play so you can make the adjustments you need to win the game. Same with the Chieftain/Warchief split. i don't think Warchief is outdated or irrelevant at all, he's just not a 4-of anymore. There will still be times when you need to matron into Warchief in order to cast and activate a Sharpshooter or Piledriver in hand. Chieftain doesn't enable that, but Chieftain has a much broader application in just making all your goblins bigger.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Davran
I don't think Chalice of the Void is fighting for the same SB space as Knesis, Spree and Pulverize. Obviously the latter are better against affinity in a vacum, but the deal is Chalice is (acording to him) actually a very good card, on the play, against them.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I would just punt the storm matchup, I don't believe you can make it an even matchup even with all the hate. I would take those slots and devote them to other matchups.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Ritual
I would just punt the storm matchup, I don't believe you can make it an even matchup even with all the hate. I would take those slots and devote them to other matchups.
This is completely fine. I've one that several times. Depends completely on your metagame though.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Ritual
I would just punt the storm matchup, I don't believe you can make it an even matchup even with all the hate. I would take those slots and devote them to other matchups.
I don t think that s so black and white, it depends what kind of combo hate you have. I agree with you if you are talking about specific combo hate like mindbreak trap. It is great against storm but it is dead otherwise. However, there are wide range non-specific combo hate that can be boarded in so many MU that I am convinced they are worth the space. I am currently devoting half of the sideboard to those cards (4 cotv + 4 leyline of the void) and I find myself boarding them in enough (especially cotv) to think they are worth the spot.
@ cranial plating is the real thread of affinity: It actually isn t if you resolve a cotv @0 on the first turn and u are on the play. One of these situations are likely to occur:
- they don t have creatures to attack
- they don t get metalcraft for etched champion (if they play it)
- they are mana crewed since their mana base rely also on mox opal and springleaf drum (no creatures = springleaf is a dead card). If they play the planeswalker version (Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) there is no way they will cast it
- if they play the glimpse of nature version the "combo" runs out of gas
- they cannot block your T1 lackey
- cotv is a better top deck than aether vial in this MU: if the game goes in top deck mode for him (which is likely for affinity) you can cast your top deck cotv for 4 mana @2 which blocks any cranial plating/etched champion he is hoping for.
I don t see any reasons for not bringing it in. If you also have pulverize in the sideboard is good for you but you can bring them in both :smile:
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Went 2-2 with goblins in the Legacy portion of the SCG Invitational yesterday. Should have been 3-1, but I made a TERRIBLE play and punted against Maverick. Here's the list I played:
4 Aether Vial
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Mogg War Marshall
3 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis
First round (actually the 5th round, but first round of Legacy) I beat Bant. Game one he forced my turn 1 Lackey and landed two knights, but I was able to get enough goblins to chump a knight and kill it with a Gempalm. Eventually I was able to make several Ringleaders with Kiki-Jiki and overwhelm his remaining knight with a critical mass of goblins. Game 2 he mulled to 5, but had a path for my lackey and a swords for my instigator. Thankfully, I was able to vial in a second instigator EOT and trigger in matron and then a Siege-Gang. Kiki-Jiki made an appearance as well, and it got ugly from there.
Round two was against Maverick. game one on the play i mull to 6 but play a turn 1 lackey. He plays a turn 1 mom which gets gempalmed on my turn and I trigger in a turn-2 siege gang. He scooped on his next turn. I don't remember much abotu game two but he was ahead the whole time and won rather comfortably.
In Game 3 I made probably the worst play of my magic life. I have a lacky and 2 mountains in play. He taps out and plays a knight with 0 lands in his graveyard. I have tarfire and a Siege-gang in hand, with a few other cards and a mountain. Immediately I know that I want to shock the knight and swing in to drop the siege-gang, which would have wrapped the game up. I draw for turn and its a wasteland. For some unknown reason, maybe just out of habit, I waste his Tundra without thinking, and then tarfire his knight. Obviously, the knight lived through my shock and I just pass the turn, completely bewildered by my mistake. Eventually he lands an Elspeth and flies over with the Knight (which should have been dead). I died with him at 3 life.
Completely tilted, I play the next round against Michael Jacob, who is on Esper Stoneblade. Both games are long and grindy, and both turn on the same play. He handles my early pressure but I am able to kill his equipment and build a decent board presence. Then, in both games, he is able to use the combination of lingering Souls and Cabal therapy to just destroy my hand and eventually win with Batterskull. In game one, he even recurred the Batterskull with Academy ruins. In Game two, he cabal therapy'd my first Sharpshooter and was able to equip a Jitte before I could find and land my second.
In the Final round, I played against Michael Flores's Cephalid Breakfast deck, which can be seen here: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...eakfast_w.html
In game one he leads with ponder on turn 1, and then stoneforge for batterskull on turn 2. I figure he's just playing stoneblade, and I build enough Board presence to kill him by turn 5, but he combos off on his turn 4. I had never seen his deck, so taking 50 damage to the face was not something I thought was coming. Game two I draw two surgical extractions, taking his one mana combo guy and then his lord of extinction. I eventually kill him with a Piledriver and Chieftain. I win Game 3 by using vial to flash in a stingscourger targeting a combo piece, and then vialing in a sharpshooter on my turn and playing a chieftain, which lets me mow down all of his guys.
Because I went 2-2 in standard, I needed to 3-1 legacy to make day two. The deck played very well and I SHOULD have made it, if not for my terrible misplay. As for the Warchief-Chieftain split, it was originally 4-1 with more Chieftans but I decided on Friday morning that I wanted a second Warcheif. After playing in the event, I think I want 3 of both, but I'm not sure what to take out. Giving your guys haste is SO important, and they even work well together and in multiples. I might take out the maindeck pyrokinesis for it. Also considering moving the stingscourger to the sideboard in favor of another War Marshall. Tarfire was great all day as well, so maybe I should have a third. I'm not sure...but I enjoyed the deck and had a great time playing this weekend, which was my first big tournament experience with the legacy format.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
@woodjt5: I can see that you have 2 sharpshooter in the 75. I think sharpshooter is a awsome in the metagame right now since lingering soul is kind of fashion
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
if one decides to play 8 leylines in the board, how about adding 2-3 serum powder to get them reliable?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
@fimo
About chalice with affinity, would you side it in if you are on draw? Personally, I think the chalice is far more effectively with builds that plays with chrome mox. A turn 1 Chalice@1 is backbreaking to alot of decks.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wert
@fimo
About chalice with affinity, would you side it in if you are on draw? Personally, I think the chalice is far more effectively with builds that plays with chrome mox. A turn 1 Chalice@1 is backbreaking to alot of decks.
I wouldn t side in the whole playset on the draw. I think I would prefer vials even though I might be wrong. On the draw, I would probably set it @1 or @2, aiming to nullify his top deck Signal Pest/glimpse of nature/Dispatch/Vault Skirge/cranial plating/Arcbound Ravager/jitte. It heavily depends on what I see they play the game before. In general, they are not a bad top deck IMO. Warren instigator is pretty hard to have it connect since they have so many creatures so I would probably do -2 WI, +2 cotv.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fimo
Warren instigator is pretty hard to have it connect since they have so many creatures so I would probably do -2 WI, +2 cotv.
Still, they have to block it, and it kills almost every creature of their deck. Sounde good to me.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Chalice is a great sideboard card against many decks but I still don't think it is best with affinity. On the draw, they would dumped almost their entire hand on the first turn with 0 and 1ccs. By the time, you put them in @1 and @2, they would have already casted what they could cast. By playing them, you are also not advancing your own gameplan. On default, we are pretty OK against with affinity anyway. Maybe we can get away without sideboard help. I used to have blood moons but I find it a bit too slow as well.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
Still, they have to block it, and it kills almost every creature of their deck. Sounde good to me.
you are right that WI is not a dead card. However, I think that it is spot removal that hurts them the most. I think that if they can decide what creature to sacrifice to block WI is not such a loss for them because they have so many creatures. they can chump block with their 0 cc creatures untill they find a cranial plating/etched champion. (Which they don t have if you play cotv @0 on the play, in this case WI gains so much more value and I wouldn t side it out). From there either they equip cranial plating to a flyer for the win of they nullify WI with their etched champion. WI cannot start attacking before the 3rd turn even if you find it in the opening hand, maybe it is too little pressure on the draw. Also, I feel like cotv is a better top deck as compared to WI.
In general I would say that the greatest weakness af affinity is that they rely on the top deck more than most other decks and since early in the game. Chalice of the void can block their top decks and therefore I think it is valuable even when you are on the draw. I play the full playset of WI main deck so a split 2+2 with chalice seems reasonable to me on the draw but I agree that when on the draw may be more a matter of taste.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wert
Chalice is a great sideboard card against many decks but I still don't think it is best with affinity. On the draw, they would dumped almost their entire hand on the first turn with 0 and 1ccs. By the time, you put them in @1 and @2, they would have already casted what they could cast. .
Affinity is not the reason to put chalice in sideboard. All I m saying here is that chalice is an amazing card to have because of the combo MU. However, it finds application outside combo which makes it even more valuable and worth the spot in the sideboard. I am totally convinced that you should board in as many as you have in SB when you are on the play against affinity. When on the draw, I still think that it deserves a couple of slots. Affinity is one of the fastest aggro in the format (faster than us) so if they are on the play and they have cranial plating + a couple of flyers they will probably win regardless if your library contains 2 more WI or 2 cotv. However, if they don t have a broken hand so they cannot close the game immediatly because they don t have cranial plating in their opening hand for instance, I think that a split 2WI + 2cotv is more reasonable than 4WI. It is not like it is an enormous difference but in those situations I think cotv can do more.
