Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayman
I need some help with coming up with a sideboard plan for my current build. I am looking to beat Jund, BUG, and combo of all sorts.
Main: 60
2. Enlightened Tutor
1. Blood Moon
3. Force of Will
3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Entreat the Angels
1. Elspeth, Knight Errent
1. Moat
2. Rest in Peace
1. Energy Field
1. Helm of Obedience
4. Sensei's Divining Top
3. Swords to Plowshares
2. Spell Pierce
1. Counterspell
1. Vendilion Clique
3. Counterbalance
3. Terminus
3. Tundra
2. Volcanic Island
1. Mystic Gate
1. Karakas
4. Flooded Strand
3. Scalding Tarn
2. Arid Mesa
2. Plains
4. Island
Actually this list makes little sense to me. If you have E tutor in hand:
1. No Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor Top
2. Has Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor RiP
3. Has Top, Has RiP, No Helm:
tutor Helm.
How often do you actually tutor for EF? You want to beat Jund/BUG, when they most often target RiP, what good is EF? It's the too clunky argument all over again.
Moat is too narrow.
Emrakul/Grieselbrand laughs at it.
Lingering Soul Spirit tokens with Jitte laugh at it.
DRS, very popular right now, doesn't even care.
Humility covers much more match-ups and has become the go-to choice in many people's list.
You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.
There are 3 forces md in his list, you just missed them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
There are 3 forces md in his list, you just missed them.
The golden posts are a pleasure to my tired soul, let him go on.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I have been following this thread for a while. Although I disagree with twndom's posts a lot of the time, I feel that his previous post contained merit.
He may be rude/obnoxious at times but that does not mean his points are invalid.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Actually this list makes little sense to me. If you have E tutor in hand:
1. No Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor Top
2. Has Top, No RiP, No Helm:
tutor RiP
3. Has Top, Has RiP, No Helm:
tutor Helm.
How often do you actually tutor for EF? You want to beat Jund/BUG, when they most often target RiP, what good is EF? It's the too clunky argument all over again.
Moat is too narrow.
Emrakul/Grieselbrand laughs at it.
Lingering Soul Spirit tokens with Jitte laugh at it.
DRS, very popular right now, doesn't even care.
Humility covers much more match-ups and has become the go-to choice in many people's list.
You say you want to beat combos, and I don't see FoW in your Main Deck list, I don't get it.
I do play Force. I am the guy who said no to shaving Forces a few posts ago. Energy Field is not for Jund or BUG but for fast aggro such as gobos who can put a time and mana restraint on you before you can reach 4 mana and they can kill you sometimes still even after terminus. Turn 2 rip into EF is a decent plan against tribal and thresh but will most likely move to the board. I gave up quite a few points against sneak and show because I believe show and tell players are going to move to the spell based strategies after the BOM but emrakul and Grislebrand decks are not a problem with a few sideboard cards. Moat in my opinion is better against Jund and BUG since it just lets you play the planeswalker game and buys more time then humility as long as you deal with deathrite which is easy. Humility is great but I prefer it when you can abuse it such as playing manlands and humility will definitely be on the side for grislebrand.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayman
I do play Force. I am the guy who said no to shaving Forces a few posts ago. Energy Field is not for Jund or BUG but for fast aggro such as gobos who can put a time and mana restraint on you before you can reach 4 mana and they can kill you sometimes still even after terminus. Turn 2 rip into EF is a decent plan against tribal and thresh but will most likely move to the board. I gave up quite a few points against sneak and show because I believe show and tell players are going to move to the spell based strategies after the BOM but emrakul and Grislebrand decks are not a problem with a few sideboard cards. Moat in my opinion is better against Jund and BUG since it just lets you play the planeswalker game and buys more time then humility as long as you deal with deathrite which is easy. Humility is great but I prefer it when you can abuse it such as playing manlands and humility will definitely be on the side for grislebrand.
So you want to focus on fast aggro now? Goblin game 1 is probably the one good use of EF. Even Goblin game 2 has pyro/REB, too narrow again. Without RiP in play, it's just a dead card.
You want to beat BUG/Jund/Combo/Fast aggro, sounds like a lack of focus to me. My understanding is that there're 2 proven versions: Joe's spell-focus Angel version and other people's Rip-Helm version. spell-focus Angel version appears to be doing better against Combo while Rip-Helm version does better against Aggro/Aggro-control. Of course, I've been wrong before and most likely will be wrong again some time in the future, not even newsworthy.
------------------------
On a separate note, we know I have been an advocate for splashing Black. Let's see how you can blow out any Blue decks via Notion thief:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193
at 12:27:30....
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The Esper Deathblade decks look troublesome. I can't say for sure until I have played against a few more of them, but it looks like a pretty solid deck. For now this is where I think I am at.
Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)
Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post
Unknown:
esper deathblade
Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher
I am content with all other matchups.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
The Esper Deathblade decks look troublesome. I can't say for sure until I have played against a few more of them, but it looks like a pretty solid deck. For now this is where I think I am at.
Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)
Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post
Unknown:
esper deathblade
Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher
I am content with all other matchups.
Time to play some Pithing Needles and a Pyroclasm (maybe you already do) in the sideboard?
Also, Omniclash is really doable after sideboard with the usual mix of Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms (and additional flashy clock, Sulfur Elemental). Preboard you're obviously slightly the underdog depending on how much white you fan in your opening and if you can assemble CB with cmc 3 and cmc5 on top, but I think games2 and 3 you should win pretty comfortably with tight play.
12-post is not even worth metagaming against given its penetration is so low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself 5 pages ago
I'd think twice before dismissing that card so quickly, a 1-ofs against Jace and Brainstorm (read: all blue midrange decks) can still catch you with pants off and basically read 4: turn upside down an entire grinding game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?
there's this guy called BDD, he played it in couple events before the release of DM.
he wrote articles here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...f-Reaping.html, did some VODs (maybe deck-tech) about it, promoted the hell out of it, and this is what has happened.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Decks with a small advantage over me:
merfolk
goblins
omniclash (I think)
Decks that are practically impossible:
12 post
Unknown:
esper deathblade
Decks that are close but that I don't want to play against anyway:
oops all spells
charbelcher
I am content with all other matchups.
I think some of this must be the difference between traditional Miracles and RIP Miracles. I haven't lost to Goblins or Fish since running RIP, in no small part because Energy Field is basically game over (many times even without RIP). Oops All Spells folds to a RIP. Charbelcher is always in that category of mostly sucking but occasionally you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (although I think that of all the decks, we have the best chance of surviving them going off).
The decks I'm most uneasy with are Jund and Shardless BUG. ANT can occasionally just get there with Abrupt Decay draws. Show and Tell decks in general are tough, but aside from their occasional cpl hands, the matchup is totally winnable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
why is deathblade dominating the SCG circuit right now? is it just because good players are playing the deck?
It's always hard to tell whether the SCG results are because the good players at that event happened to roll with it or whether the deck is actually that much better. Either way, if good players are taking notice then it's worth looking at.
The deck is basically Stoneblade minus Lingering Souls and plus Deathrite. Can't beat 'em, join 'em? Perhaps the Deathrites are also what allow this version to run Bob more easily than previous Stoneblade builds. It's a bit surprising that neither went far enough into the G splash for Abrupt Decay in the board. Between SFM, Snapcaster, and Bob, the deck is just spewing card advantage, and it does so without relying on the randomness of Cascade or the awful topdeckness of Hymns and Ancestrals.
Nolan's build looks even closer to traditional Stoneblade, with FoW MD and Clique and Notion Thief as auxiliary flash creatures. Fogle's build is a little closer to Jund, without FoWs and relying more on Liliana and discard to beat combo. I haven't watched the match yet, but aside from Notion Thief, Fogle's deck seems much stronger against the fair decks. Maybe the Disenchant in Nolan's board mattered in that sort of mirror and I could definitely see Purge being good.
I imagine that with Bob and SFM on the rise, we might see decks start favoring Spell Snare over Spell Pierce again. Meta cycles and all that jazz. The deck definitely seems like a much tougher MU than Stoneblade, but I would still rather play against Deathblade than Shardless.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I just watched the first part of the semifinal match from this weekend where Lauren Nolan demolished Justin Uppal with Notion Thief. I actually feel relieved. When I heard about the Notion Thief blowout I was a little scared. This seemed like a very unpleasant interaction for any control deck. Thief seemed so good that I spent the last couple weeks considering changing the my third color just to play it.
It may be that good. But, Uppal had to make several terrible plays in a row in order to get trashed by it. Careful play might be enough to mitigate the effects, and four mana is a lot to hold up. If Notion Thief ends up being a card that routinely blows out some people but gets played around by others, then I am happy to have it around. And I am still tempted to play it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I just watched the first part of the semifinal match from this weekend where Lauren Nolan demolished Justin Uppal with Notion Thief. I actually feel relieved. When I heard about the Notion Thief blowout I was a little scared. This seemed like a very unpleasant interaction for any control deck. Thief seemed so good that I spent the last couple weeks considering changing the my third color just to play it.
It may be that good. But, Uppal had to make several terrible plays in a row in order to get trashed by it. Careful play might be enough to mitigate the effects, and four mana is a lot to hold up. If Notion Thief ends up being a card that routinely blows out some people but gets played around by others, then I am happy to have it around. And I am still tempted to play it.
yeah, dunno what juppal was doing there. his play was bad if Lauren had Thief _or_ Clique.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I don't understand why EsperBlade would be such a bad matchup.
Rest in Peace "kills" all of his creatures, and Pyroclasm kills them actually.
I see Batterskull as the only real danger in those lists. That and discards. For those we play Spell Pierce, CounterTop and Leyline..
I fear Show and Tell much more actually
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Legendary Miracle just got a huge boost: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248e
what about
3 Vendilion
2 Venser
3 Karakas
now?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poron
Despites the new ruling about legendary permanents, this won't mean that you have to fill your deck with cards that you usually don't need in multiples. I can see the triple Vendilion, the double Venser (a bit less honestly, I think the second one would be better as something else), but triple Karakas still seems just useless even in a legend-heavy build. You're not going to pop both if you were to draw both, but remember that one still goes, and as a control deck you don't want to pop your own resources. They would still be worse Plains.
Same applies for the creatures: now it will be less awkward to have a Clique on the board and one in hand, but still popping one of the twos is something you won't be doing very willingly unless you're put in a bad spot- e.g., opponent with Storm trying to combo out. In that case, being able to play the second Clique and still keep a clock on the ground will be a huge improvement, but that's one of the few, limited scenarios I can think of now.
---
One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.
One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.
One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.
The red splash gives access to REB / Pyroblast, though.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirTylerGalt
The red splash gives access to REB / Pyroblast, though.
That's exactly what he's saying. Red is better because you have the three vindicates (read: reb/pyroblast) to actually kill the other person's jace
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Piceli89
One thing I'd like to put the focus on is that the red splash now is even less debatable, as (simultaneous) Jace Wars will revolve around trying to find your way to destroy the other's before he does the same with yours. Suddenly having 3 Vindicates floating in your deck seems appealing.
One could argue that Notion Thief would do the same effect if not better, but I think that unless you already have Thief as soon as your opponent sticks his Jace (ala Uppal vs Nolan), his Jace brainstoming once or twice will allow to find a removal or a counterspell. And after that episode, now a black source across the table will rise awareness, it will be way more difficult to repeat such a blowout as the card is now under the radar.
I'm not sure if I understand your position. Are you in favor of red splash or black splash? As in, you sound ambiguous and I can interpret it both ways.
Regardless, the bottom line is the impact of new rules, which means Planeswalkers are harder to destroy. It's not just opponent's Jace, it's opponent's Liliana and opponent's Karakas as well. Yes, REB/Pryo is very efficient at killing opponent's Jace TMS; however, doesn't a catch-all card like Vindicate sound appealing to you guys? The fact that you posturing for Notion Thief is a nice bonus, if anything.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I'm not sure if I understand your position. Are you in favor of red splash or black splash? As in, you sound ambiguous and I can interpret it both ways.
Regardless, the bottom line is the impact of new rules, which means Planeswalkers are harder to destroy. It's not just opponent's Jace, it's opponent's Liliana and opponent's Karakas as well. Yes, REB/Pryo is very efficient at killing opponent's Jace TMS; however, doesn't a catch-all card like Vindicate sound appealing to you guys? The fact that you posturing for Notion Thief is a nice bonus, if anything.
He is saying the following:
1) Red was the best splashcolor for Miracle
2) Red is now even better
3) ...because we now have(and always had) 2-4 cc1 instant Vindicates to get rid of their jace
4) ...because you simply need an out to their Jace, as yours isn't going to do it, having a Jace while they don't is good.
Understood?
