[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I guess I may be the only person running non scapeshift Jund in here, but Rakdos' Return? Seems solid vs. control and maybe combo?

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I don't see a point to it to be perfectly honest.

What does it do that Blightning doesn't do? On that note, why don't Jund Fit decks play Blightning? That card shits out value, I don't care if they get to choose the cards, you're 2 for 1'ing them AND bolting them. You're playing Mind Rot and Lightning Bolt in one card for less mana than both of them. What the fuck.

Every time I tell myself it's bad I keep finding a reason to try and play Jund fit again.

Blightning, Godo, that new sorcery terminate that kills planeswalkers? Suck it Jace. Let's not deal with your bullshit today.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

The card was just spoiled, so excuse us for discussing a card that is in the deck's color that specifically hoses archetypes that historically give the deck trouble. If the card is bad, at least we got to discuss why.

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Then let's discuss why it's bad. An aggressive 1 drop is NOT what this deck is looking for. It gets blown to shit by our best card. It hoses the most relevant part of our engine (Therapy). The only deck that gives us real fits that this card is remotely good against is Stoneblade/Miracles. Dredge is no problem, nor is Delver. High Tide and Storm are winnable without it and can win with it in play anyway. The card is perfectly playable in a deck like Maverick. This one, not so much.

Rakdos return just as an endgame fireball to the dome and to empty a control players hands while also killing a walker. Better than blighting for the fact that you can scale it. I'm not saying it's a definite but it certainly seems powerful. T2 with a tower and explorer you hit them for 3 cards. I may try it as a 1 of.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Rakdos return just as an endgame fireball to the dome and to empty a control players hands while also killing a walker. Better than blighting for the fact that you can scale it. I'm not saying it's a definite but it certainly seems powerful. T2 with a tower and explorer you hit them for 3 cards. I may try it as a 1 of.

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I could see some sort of Blightning / Rakdos' Return split.

Has this sort of Jund-Fit ever been tried? I never thought about leaning towards really huge spell bombs. Blightning is -huge- value, Rakdos' Return is -huge- value when X=3 or more, even that new Dreadbore is pretty sweet. You still get deed and whatnot. Between Huntsmaster and Batterskull you'll have a good amount of lifegain.

Unfortunately for Jund: Pulse > Dreadbore, Hymn > Blightning, and Godo, well, Godo is sex :wink:.

Tonight's tournament:

2-1 vs. Sea Stompy, a single missplay in G2 got me a game loss;
1-2 vs. Esper Foundry/Walkers, a single missplay in G2 cost me the game again and I lost G3 to Painter/Stone in 3 turns;
2-0 vs. Pox, epic G2, survived a Lily ultimate on 7 lands;
2-0 vs. Maverick, an easy ride

I took 3rd or 4th, playing the following:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Grave Titan
1 Sphinx of Uthuun

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage


Sphinx came out twice and really brought the pain. He basicaly acts as a Grave Titan but offers a flying body and 2-3 cards instead of 2 tokens.

Genesis never happened, except against Maverick, which I was pretty much stomping already.

The reason that I was thinking about Return, was just because late game it can empty a control or combo players hand. Kind of like how skeletal scrying refills our hand late game. I'm not saying it is good. I'm just discussing it. I think it is better than blightning due to it being able to scale, and like qwerrios said, If you were going to play blighting, hymn is just better. It may just be a standard only star, but I am willing to give it a try as a one of.

New walker... Playable in here? I think it is a possibility. 5 mana maelstrom pulse if nothing else.

I like the high loyality and the fact that has really good synergy with deed. At least testworthy.

I -really- like her. She's a board wipe, an answer to almost any single problem, or an I-Win button.

To me she screams wanting to be in the straight up GB Fit or BUG Fit alongside Jace. They protect each other and unlike Liliana they can both win the game. The downside is that her +1 doesn't actually do anything directly, except that it does because it forces action. If you aren't hitting her you're going to lose, if you are hitting her you're losing creatures so it better be an alpha strike.

Looks fun with wolf run too.

seem's like jund/punishing nic fit is getting a new fresh card

http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/u...hter-Games.jpg

Vraska def seems good at first sight. High loyalty combined with the plus 1 ability is very nasty.

The ultimate synergizes with pernicious deed which is in the same colors. Deed synergies with the fact that it's a planeswalker too.

Vraska wins the pw battle with her -3.

Sometimes the ultimate won't get there though, and the pw can be ignored (she will have to -3 to destroy) the problem here is that there is no value to attacking vraska, because if you are on the aggro plan, all you have to do is keep more creatures than there are assassins or just kill them.

The -3 is the best part of the card but deed does that quicker and more efficiently although not on pw's

Even though she looks strong, this card is absolutely screwed with 1 lightning bolt. I'm passing the one up but I like the design. It will probably pre-sale for 40 usd.

Those that were running pulse are better off running vraska I think.

Slaughter Games....uncounterable cranial extraction, hell yes.

Maelstrom Pulse has just been Upgraded... Vraska will be my new toy. That +1 and -3 are wicked... She screams CA, has awesome synergy with Deed because she eats planeswalkers (that's right, she eats them!). She can also end games quite easely when she needs to. I will definitely pack 1-2 copies at all times.

I too wanted to cut Maelstrom Pulse for Vraska, but the problem is keeping the mana-curve reasonable. I tend to lose the games where my opening hand consists of a couple of lands and a titan, a Garruk (Primal Hunter), a perniscious deed and a thragtusk. The maelstrom pulses are really good, also they are one of my few outs (along with perniscious deed) against Belcher and Storm making 12 goblins on turn 1. I cut my Wickerbough Elder for 1 copy of Vraska the Unseen. My B/G 'Fit now looks like this, or at least it will as soon as I get a copy of Vraska:

Lands (22)

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village

Creatures (11)

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (24)

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Innocent Blood
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade

Walkers (4)

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vraska the Unseen

Sideboard

1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Deathmark
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kitchen Finks

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Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu

I too wanted to cut Maelstrom Pulse for Vraska, but the problem is keeping the mana-curve reasonable. I tend to lose the games where my opening hand consists of a couple of lands and a titan, a Garruk (Primal Hunter), a perniscious deed and a thragtusk. The maelstrom pulses are really good, also they are one of my few outs (along with perniscious deed) against Belcher and Storm making 12 goblins on turn 1. I cut my Wickerbough Elder for 1 copy of Vraska the Unseen. My B/G 'Fit now looks like this, or at least it will as soon as I get a copy of Vraska:

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You snap-mulligan those hands because they have no action and do nothing O.o.

It's interesting that card was printed, because the last version (which I believe was from ravnica) was also quite good: Thought Hemorrhage. It goes in line with the Jund Fit theme of aggressively attacking hand and how the deck functions.

Slaughter Games seems like a solid addition. People often criticize these cards because they don't directly affect the game state, but they're quite powerful. Turning Stoneblade off of Jace or Maverick off of Knight etc is pretty brutal.

Vraska is a trap, I just posted my rationale in the spoiler thread. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...poilers/page15

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Originally Posted by bruizar

On the topic of Vraska, this card is really not worth the troubles. It's a big trap so trade them away to the standard folks that can use him.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1346817949

Let's analyze.

When the +1 is active, you will never attack him. Why? He is ramping to his ultimate. This means he is trying to get 3 creatures, that you have to remove. Just let him ramp and block it with the creature that would have otherwise died to Vraska.

Also, when are you going to attack into Vraska with his +1 active? with a 2/2? Nah, that's not a good idea.

3/3? Well, I rather just pressure my opponent's life total so Vraska has to spend 3 loyalty to kill my 3/3.

4/4? Well, if the +1 is active, I'm just running par on loyalty (4 damage versus the +1 and -3)

5/5? Well yeah, now we're talking. But do we rather have 5 damage to the dome AND force him to spend his -3 loyalty? Or do you want to just suicide your 5/5 clock against this 5 mana planeswalker.

The problem is that it costs 7 freaking loyalty to ult. A single lightning bolt puts Vraska out of contention because the loyalty drops so hard and you spend so long doing absolutely nothing to ramp it. This isn't Gideon that can force an opponent to attack into Gideon.

This card has really cool abilities but can too easily be ignored. 3 non-evasive, non-hexproof creatures on turn infinite really don't make this card good enough.

The pros? It's in the same colors as Pernicious Deed and some good synergy there. It can deal with Planeswalkers (But hey, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse and Dreadbore can too! Doesn't mean you should run it), and it protects itself like a king (or queen)!

What's not to like? Well, there is hardly any board impact except for a slow, 1 time vindicate.

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I actually think Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate are better, especially when considering the fact that some players play Burning Wish and can get access to it when they need it (although not sure if anyone plays burning wish and pulse/vindicate in conjunction, it is the same amount of mana, but gives you a more streamlined deck than Vraska can give you). Feel free to test Vraska, but I would advise against obtaining Vraska's immediately, because she will likely be very expensive due to the other formats.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

You snap-mulligan those hands because they have no action and do nothing O.o.

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Obviously! I'm just pointing out that it can be a weakness with this deck (at least the G/B I'm running).

I am both in love with Slaughter Games and furious because I have a German foil Cranial that's sitting in Scapewish currently that was actually impossible to find. Dammit.

But yeah. I think that when I play Scapewish, if I'm worried about there being a lot of combo in the room, I'll run 3 Slaughter Games in the board. 1 for Wish, 2 to board in. Cranial effects are IMO the single best thing this deck (any flavor) can do to combo decks, especially shit like OmniTell or Sneak. They're really strong decks....until you take away Omniscience or Emrakul. Suddenly, they become steaming piles of junk that can't win anymore. Having an uncounterable Cranial is amazing for all jund-colored varieties.

Vraska.....I really want to like Vraska. I'm not sure that I do, though. The problem with replacing Pulse with her is that 1. Pulse sometimes is absurd value (killing 2x Goyf, 2x Delver, 12x Goblin token, etc); and 2. CMC problems. I think that Kich is exactly right: she'll be best in B/G, and in BUG [control variants]. Outside of those two color versions, though, I don't see her. Rector is already top-heavy enough without needing to add a 5-cmc planeswalker, and Jund just has better things to do, like actually winning the game on the spot, or piling on the Tusk/Zenithing Hunts, etc.

In control BUG Fit, though, she's a potent weapon for sure. The only issue that I have with her in straight BG is that I'm not sure that she's better than Garruk PH for the deck. BG tends to have an assload of control and not many win conditions...Garruk is a much beefier wincon than Vraska is, although Vraska is arguably more lethal once she goes off (assuming you've set up the board state correctly).

Now, all that being said, I am also agreeing with Bruizar that she has elements of being a trap. I really, really wish she had some kind of proactive ability. She protects herself probably better than any 'walker in existence, but that's all she does. She protects, protects, and protects some more until the game is locked, then she goes off and wins. This is why I think she's better in control BUG Fit. She fits the philosophy of the deck perfectly, and compliments the heck out of Jace. Curving Jace into Vraska is going to be game most of the time. Winning the PW fight is a big deal, and she's also solid vs Show and Tell, although obv. you can't put her in with it (which would be amazing). I dunno. She's hard to evaluate. She's very much unlike any planeswalker we've had before.

Bare minimum I agree with Bruizar that we need to be cautious with her. She's not a card that we pay outrageous preorder prices for (Slaughter Games). I certainly think she's testable, and I think that she will have a home in the control-oriented BUG lists, but I don't think she's actually that good beyond there. She doesn't impact the board state enough for the other lists. Shame, cause she's a total badass. Such good art.

Oh, one more thing: I don't buy into the Lightning Bolt argument. Yeah, burn's good vs her. But if they're burning her, they aren't burning you. And the only decks that play Lightning Bolt are the aggressive decks (burn, RUG, U/R delver) that want your throat, not your planeswalker. If she's healing salving for you against one of those decks, you're perfectly fine with that. Also, one Lightning Bolt isn't going to kill her most of the time, unless you've needed to kill something. But even then, if you're trading her for a nonland permanent that was worth -3ing right away and a Lightning Bolt, you're probably fine with that. Let's say RUG, and she blew up a 5/6 goyf. That's 8 points of damage that she's saved you, which is a big deal. I agree with all of your thought process except that bit. Bolt isn't a concern....or a major one at the least.

Re: Vraska

Like Vicar in a tutu said, you can't simply replace Pulses with this chick. Curve considerations have to be taken into account.

On the other hand I do disagree with bruizar. I think she's definitely good enough for the deck. Her +1 could read "Stand up and do a jig" and she would be good enough. It doesn't have to do anything but increase her loyalty. Your argument about Bolt is largely irrelevant because most decks don't play that card. So if they don't attack her and lose their dudes, you've gotten two Pulses out of her at the minimum. Which is a good deal for her mana cost. If you're on the ultimate plan, we have plenty of time to wipe the board and strip their hand of answers by the time we're ready to fire that off.

Now to be fair, I do agree that she's not worth stupid pre order prices, so do be careful there. But she is a perfectly reasonable card to run in GB and BUG versions at least.

BTW, the new Extraction card will be sweet in Jund versions!

Edit: Looks like Arianrhod beat me to the punch on this one!