[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I'm curious, did you mulligan your hands at all? And if so, do you feel they were appropriate?
. . .

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I did mull quite a few times. I will mull pretty agressively with this deck, I have no problem with that. If I don't have a dredger, a discard outlet OTHER than LeD and the land to play that out, I mull. I also do what I can to set up a Looting or a Breakthrough after the dredger is in the yard. Some times I have to use a Study or Looting to get them there, but I do what I can to set it up for after the dredger is there for the most value and quickest speed. But for what ever reason I just wasn't very fast this time. Outside of the games where I just erupted like a volcano, it felt very sluggish for some reason. There was really no in between.

I've tried to watch some of your video matches Hollywood. But it's hard to really get a sense of what you're doing without commentary. Maybe you can post some links to the good ones that might help me see the lines of play you're taking a bit better. I'm looking to try Manaless soon but I don't know that it'll be any better if I can't figure out this one first. I love this deck, it's a lot of fun to play. I just don't seem to be getting the results others are getting out of it.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

I just don't seem to be getting the results others are getting out of it.

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I went 0-3 drop with Dredge at the some what recent Grand Prix in Atlanta.

Timo, one of the creators of Quadlazer(I believe?), seemed to have ditched Dredge in favor of ANT.

Dredge hasn't made any Starcitygames top eights recently despite being played by a lot of players.

It isn't even a Deck to Beat at the moment.

Dredge is not an easy deck to play. The deck punishes you when you don't mulligan enough and sometimes punishes you when mulligan too much. It can sometimes lose to a topdecked Scavenging Ooze or Tormod's Crypt despite perfect play. It can poop on you when all you need to dredge is a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below. Sometimes it mulls to oblivion no matter how you have built the deck.

Being 2-2 while having to play a RiP deck isn't that bad. You will only get better with deck the more you play it. I have been playing dredge since it was a deck in Standard and I still make mistakes with it. I always learn something new about the deck everytime I play it.

Well, I appreciate that. Thanks for the comment Joe. The RiP deck plus the Ooze deck was a bit of a challenge. I was happy to win through Ooze, but then facing Shaman and RiP in the next two rounds was a bit taxing on my mental state and abilities with the deck.

I might make a couple last minuet changes but as of right now I'm gonna stick to my guns and play this Saturday for some duals.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered paradise

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Putrid Imp
2 Dread Return
1 flame kin zelot
1 Gristlebane

sb

4 leyline of the void
3 firestorm
3 natures claim
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ichori

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Originally Posted by joemauer

I went 0-3 drop with Dredge at the some what recent Grand Prix in Atlanta.

Timo, one of the creators of Quadlazer(I believe?), seemed to have ditched Dredge in favor of ANT.

Dredge hasn't made any Starcitygames top eights recently despite being played by a lot of players.

It isn't even a Deck to Beat at the moment.

Dredge is not an easy deck to play. The deck punishes you when you don't mulligan enough and sometimes punishes you when mulligan too much. It can sometimes lose to a topdecked Scavenging Ooze or Tormod's Crypt despite perfect play. It can poop on you when all you need to dredge is a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below. Sometimes it mulls to oblivion no matter how you have built the deck.

Being 2-2 while having to play a RiP deck isn't that bad. You will only get better with deck the more you play it. I have been playing dredge since it was a deck in Standard and I still make mistakes with it. I always learn something new about the deck everytime I play it.

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+1000 to this! Sure, the deck can go autopilot at times and win in the hands of even the beginners. But it takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge of the format to start top 8-ing with it consistently. Sure, you can luck out and get the best matchups. But relying on that can only take you so far. Post board play with the deck takes some time to really get the hang of. Decisions made post board (not during boarding, as I now find it pretty straight forward) is very crucial. The deck may not be the hardest deck to play in the format, but it definitely isn't an easy one.

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

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Definetely needs more lands in the sideboard. You'll be able to cast Grudge and Nature's Claim with 8-gold lands once in a lifetime. Add 3 Tarnished Citadels in the place of 1 Ray of Revelation and 2 Ancient Grudge.

I was wondering if I should play my own grave-hate in the SB? I have a bunch of anti-hate, but should I run my own? Funny aside, I just got rid of most of my own Citadels lol...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

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I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).

I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)

What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.

4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.

Hope that helps
Mindlash

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

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I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).

I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)

What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.

4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.

Hope that helps
Mindlash

In all honesty, my SB is a mish-mash of what I've seen online, I just added more than normal, lol. It's just because I haven't tested post-board games as much as I should, so I told myself if I add a lot of cards, I can just chip away and sculpt the SB how I want it.

I was actually thinking about putting the 4th Study back in, but I love Breakthrough... Might need to try it out though.

I would run the 4th Careful Study before I run the 4th Breakthrough. You can keep Careful Study + Careful Study hands but you can't keep Breakthrough + Breakthrough hands; the ones with 4 Careful Study 4 Breakthrough will mulligan less.

Dumb question, how does one win using Flayer? Return it the return a huge GGT? Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Dumb question, how does one win using Flayer? Return it the return a huge GGT? Am I missing something?

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Yep thats it. You return Flayer for 4 damage, sac him and two other dudes to return a GGT. Flayer returns due to undying and deals another 5. GGT enters the battlefield and does hopefully 11 :-)

Flayer turns all your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts which can be very nice sometimes :-)

Thing is...you should have one more DR as needed. For a Flayerkill it would be optimal to have 3 DR. In your case with FKZ two are enough cuz you need only 1 DR to win. I've seen people with flayer and just 2 DR but it seems a bit unreliable to me...especially to kill your opponent the turn you try to return flayer with just 2 DR in deck.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I would run the 4th Careful Study before I run the 4th Breakthrough. You can keep Careful Study + Careful Study hands but you can't keep Breakthrough + Breakthrough hands; the ones with 4 Careful Study 4 Breakthrough will mulligan less.

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What he says. I would run 12 studies if I were allowed to do so. I would never play less then the 8 allowed studies.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

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If you stick to DR I think Elesh and Iona are good targets to use. You can cover most needs with them.

Darkblast might me something for you if you encounter Peacekeeper often. But then again I would run him main over the 4th thug as I mentioned above. I don't see other uses for it as of now...at least not in my meta.

Revelation might me something against moat, propaganda, elefant grass and the like. I used it in the past because we had two regular enchantress players running around and one of my friends played it too. Other then that I never used it. It does not help against leylines obviously.

1 or 2 Grudges might also be enough. I mainly board it against Belcher, ANT and the like to kill their Cannon and LED's which they usually play to safe them from my therapies. It can also help against Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge and so on.

Greetings Mindlash

I got myself a Flayer and an extra Dread Return because I want to try out the Flayer kill.

Also, I have 3 Coffin Purges so -2 Ancient Grudge -1 Ray +3 Coffin Purges? It's just I think I might need my own graveyard hate. :)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I got myself a Flayer and an extra Dread Return because I want to try out the Flayer kill.

Also, I have 3 Coffin Purges so -2 Ancient Grudge -1 Ray +3 Coffin Purges? It's just I think I might need my own graveyard hate. :)

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If you feel as if you need graveyard hate then run the playset of Leylines. Any other graveyard hate is usually just Sideboard filler.

I'm trying to find a way to fit in my Flayer... The list seems so tight, its hard to remove and add cards...

I'm trying to fit in both a Dread Return AND a Flayer, and all I can think of is moving the FKZ, but after that... Maybe a Therapy..?

Didn't think it was going to be THIS complicated. :P

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I'm trying to find a way to fit in my Flayer... The list seems so tight, its hard to remove and add cards...

I'm trying to fit in both a Dread Return AND a Flayer, and all I can think of is moving the FKZ, but after that... Maybe a Therapy..?

Didn't think it was going to be THIS complicated. :P

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You might want to try Andos flayer list from the starting post. He finished top8 at gp indy with it. After the tournament he cut the firestorms for 1 fairy, 1 vapor and a sphinx of lost truth.

Its better to make your own board and probably maindeck but I think this one might be a good point to start :-)

Greetings Chris

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

You might want to try Andos flayer list from the starting post. He finished top8 at gp indy with it. After the tournament he cut the firestorms for 1 fairy, 1 vapor and a sphinx of lost truth.

Its better to make your own board and probably maindeck but I think this one might be a good point to start :-)

Greetings Chris

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I did just that. :P

After I told myself I'd cut a Therapy, I checked the Primer, and the numbers match up pretty good.

I goldfished the deck, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Winning without needing the combat phase is pretty awesome. I also noticed that one can sac the Flayer to Return a GGT, and here comes a question, can I stack the CIP triggers in my favour to deal damage with the GGT AND the Undying Flayer?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

I did just that. :P

After I told myself I'd cut a Therapy, I checked the Primer, and the numbers match up pretty good.

I goldfished the deck, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Winning without needing the combat phase is pretty awesome. I also noticed that one can sac the Flayer to Return a GGT, and here comes a question, can I stack the CIP triggers in my favour to deal damage with the GGT AND the Undying Flayer?

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I just rechecked out Ando's list. It does seem like a good starting point for Dredge with Dread Return in it. I personally would swap the Tarnished Citadel for a Grisselbrand but that's just me.

Also, don't use Ando's sideboard as it is quite outdated.


@Hollywood: Just skimmed through the primer and noticed the Quadlazer list needs a small update. It now runs three Ashen Ghouls and -1 Ancient Grudge, -1 Memory's Journey, and -1 Ray of Revelation. I believe.
Edit: -1 Tarnished Citadel and +1 Undiscovered Paradise.

Speaking of the Quadlazer list, I haven't heard much from the Germans that used to frequent these forums. Has there been little success with Dredge over there lately? Any new tech being tested over there?