[Primer] Eldrazi Stompy

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Originally Posted by Barook

So how exactly does Eldrazi manage to have problems against Storm? IIRC, it was one of my best match-ups. Edit: Looked it up again - went 10-0 against ANT and 1-0 vs TES with my old White Eldrazi list. What the hell are you guys doing? :really:

I'm still pondering what deck to choose to come back playing Legacy. I'm leaning towards a variant of my White Eldrazi list, but I'll first wait and see how the meta shakes out.

The white list is still good enough vs Storm, while also having a very strong game Sneak & Show (which is coming back big time) and some other stuff like UB Reanimator.

Other thoughts on the meta:
- Delver was always a problem, so we need better ways to deal with it.
- TNN is coming back big time (both in BUG variants and Stoneblade), so unless we can add ways to handle it, we're toast.
- Since Elves got alot more relevant, I'd to see ways to improve the match-up (it was somewhat even to very slightly favored IIRC and looking at my old data).
- With Miracles and Shardless BUG disappearing due to other BUG decks, I'm not too sure how necessary Mishra's Factory is, especially with more TNN roadblocks on the way.

My initial plan to adapt my old white deck would be:
- Keep the white splash for Karakas and Displacer.
- Add Bearer of Silence as a way to deal with TNN and having more removal. A shame it can't block Delver.
- Add Walking Ballistas to deal with Elves and Swarm decks.
- Wasteland Strangler might be a good SB card with all DRS shenanigans going on.
- Replace the Factories for more colored lands to support the new W/B plan better.

Not sure what to cut, but I'll figure out that one later.

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The short answer, without Counterbalance to worry about, Storm has gotten faster and more efficient. They can easily go off on turn 1 or 2. And now they can streamline their sideboard options to Echoing Truth, which can also bounce TKS and Smasher in a pinch. They also play Hurkyl's Recall, answering multiple or combinations of Chalices and Thorns, whereas before it was just abrupt decay.

In addition, now they splash for red and multiply their options by running Rite of Flames and Burning Wish.

Ballista is a great option, but I'm afraid Bearer may be too slow for the current meta.

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Originally Posted by Qernavak

The short answer, without Counterbalance to worry about, Storm has gotten faster and more efficient. They can easily go off on turn 1 or 2. And now they can streamline their sideboard options to Echoing Truth, which can also bounce TKS and Smasher in a pinch. They also play Hurkyl's Recall, answering multiple or combinations of Chalices and Thorns, whereas before it was just abrupt decay.

In addition, now they splash for red and multiply their options by running Rite of Flames and Burning Wish.

Ballista is a great option, but I'm afraid Bearer may be too slow for the current meta.

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Thanks for the explanation. Looking at Bryant Cook's latest list, it makes a ton of sense: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/632863#online

Bearer could definitely be too slow due to how the mana cost is split (which can't be paid with Temple/Eye). That doesn't change our need for better TNN answers. Looking at our splashable options (that also hit weenie masses), we have:

Holy Light
Engineered Plague
Shrivel
Nausea
Toxic Deluge

Holy Light would probably the most "splashable" one, although I still think it would be really hard to pull off (and it can't hit D&T, although that one could be handled with Ballistas). Other options could be pinpoint solutions like SoFaI, but I doubt that would be too hot vs BUG decks with Abrupt Decay.

Edit: There's also Llawan, Cephalid Empress, although that one is extremely narrow.

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Originally Posted by Barook

So how exactly does Eldrazi manage to have problems against Storm? IIRC, it was one of my best match-ups. Edit:I'm still pondering what deck to choose to come back playing Legacy. I'm leaning towards a variant of my White Eldrazi list, but I'll first wait and see how the meta shakes out.

The white list is still good enough vs Storm, while also having a very strong game Sneak & Show (which is coming back big time) and some other stuff like UB Reanimator.

Other thoughts on the meta:
- Delver was always a problem, so we need better ways to deal with it.
- TNN is coming back big time (both in BUG variants and Stoneblade), so unless we can add ways to handle it, we're toast.
- Since Elves got alot more relevant, I'd to see ways to improve the match-up (it was somewhat even to very slightly favored IIRC and looking at my old data).
- With Miracles and Shardless BUG disappearing due to other BUG decks, I'm not too sure how necessary Mishra's Factory is, especially with more TNN roadblocks on the way.

My initial plan to adapt my old white deck would be:
- Keep the white splash for Karakas and Displacer.
- Add Bearer of Silence as a way to deal with TNN and having more removal. A shame it can't block Delver.
- Add Walking Ballistas to deal with Elves and Swarm decks.
- Wasteland Strangler might be a good SB card with all DRS shenanigans going on.
- Replace the Factories for more colored lands to support the new W/B plan better.

Not sure what to cut, but I'll figure out that one later.

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Welcome back Barook! I'm getting back into playing legacy as well.

I'm drawn towards Thalias and Eldrazi white build from playing your white version before I left. For TNN, I'm thinking Blessed Alliance for a list with more white source. For Elves, Thalia 2.0 and/or Containment Priest.

Regarding Bearer of Silence as a tech vs TNN i often found my opponents to sac a dork, since TNN decks most likely happen to have 2 or more creatures on the board. Im not sure if Bearer really is the correct answer here (regarding Blade and Leo-Bug). Leo BUG is a special case, since your opp will draw a card with leo on board and then just sac a dork... feels even worse then ....
VS Delver decks, his manacost can be a problem, but if you are able to cast him "kicked" he does a really nice job, since those deck often have only 1 creature on board.
So far i think cutting all the 6 mana eldrazi while playing more cmc2/3 eldrazi seems to be a good direction since the meta seems to become faster right now.
Aside from Displacer, which i will most likely use as a 4-off again, maybe Obligator is nice again, too, since he can just steal a SNT/Reanimator threat or just present a fast hasty clock vs more combo-orientated decks. Also he is really strong in the mirror.
On the other hand, he is really bad vs Elves and DnT which is a huge downside, considering those decks will also tick up in meta share as far as i assume. A
I really like the idea of Blessed Alliance, but im not sure if we can "afford" that card regarding the manabase. I see about 6 white-slots in the manabase plus 3 petals. Seems a bit shaky to me.

I'm not too worried about S&T/Reanimator while running Karakas/Displacer, although Containment Priest would shore up the match-up even further.

I'm torn between White Eldrazi and Thalia Stompy. The problem is that White Eldrazi doesn't really support the mana base to run the (excellent) white hate cards we need, while Thalia Stompy gives me a first impression that the game plan is diluted and cards are clashing with each other (e.g. naming Human vs Eldrazi on Cavern, aggro cards like Smasher vs durdle cards like SFM).

If White Eldrazi was to run white hate cards, it would require a serious retooling of the manabase (with questionable outcome).

What white hate cards would you run, and why?
I assume Rest in Peace would be great for this deck, but aside from that.... Disenchant maybe... ?

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Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411

What white hate cards would you run, and why?
I assume Rest in Peace would be great for this deck, but aside from that.... Disenchant maybe... ?

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Containment Priest, which I also used in the past before dropping it to streamline the deck.

RIP is too slow and too hard to cast, I prefer Leyline over it, despite its disadvantages.

Other than that, Holy Light looks pretty attractive since it can kill TNN and creature swarms. But again, non-creature white mana is a total bitch to cast reliably.

If you splash heavy white than you should play "Eldrazi&Taxes"/"Thalia Stompy" having Thalia over thorn or any white creature over stuff like Mimic is way better if you already have the mana to support it - you simply have only disruptiv creatures besides Smasher (because Smasher is Smasher and he is good enough for "smash the opponent").

Blessed Alliance is an underrated card and works well against TNN, Gofy, Delver or any big dump fatty like Marit Lage.

The bad design of Bearer of Silence sadly disqualifies him to be "the guy we are looking for" (thanks Wizard for his shitty mana) - i played some games with UB Eldrazi but Mimic doesnt act well with Bearer and Skyspawner you have to many 2/1 dudes that aren't powerfull enough unless you get something like Jitte.

What else can deal with TNN-Walls? The lovely Sideboard-Card: All is Dust likes to eat the Merfolk and all his friends on the field, you can fly over him with Skyspawner or go bigger -> Wretched Gryff (dodges a lot of removal too), since Smasher isn't bad against TNN you can also try Phyrexian Metamorph (more Smasher/TKS, or copy TNN, opponents Equipment and bonus points for flickering it with Displacer). Or if you still stay colorless: Key to the City

Overall splashing for hate-spells we have White (see above) and Black (Toxic Deluge) and we can scroll back because we had a lot of discussion with all of it befores everyone used nearly the same colorless shell.

So I have two 4-1's over the last two days after I got fed up losing games to people drawing their deck's two basics with Dragon Stompy.

Yesterday:

0-2 Four-Color Loam (First game he had Mox into Wasteland+Loam Turn 1, Second game he had 3 Wastelands each of the first 3 Turns, and then I got 22 cards deep without drawing another land)
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-0 Four-Color Stoneblade
2-1 Grixis Delver

Today:

2-0 UWR Standstill
0-2 Shardless BUG (Why are people playing this still)
2-1 UR Blood Moon/True Name/Madcap Experiment for Platinum Emperion
2-0 TES (Bryant Cook)
2-0 Grixis Delver

Whew that was a lot of Grixis. I think the colorless version is well equipped to handle most of the currently decks. Its still hard to say where the meta will settle down. But I think we need to be prepared for lots of Delver and a decent amount of storm too.

Next step from our discussion yesterday:

Uw-Eldrazi:

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void (new police of the format)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (still best equip and it gets better with flying eldrazi)
3 Mox Diamond (permanent color and landfix)
1 Crucible of Worlds (can be another card but overall works good with mox and against manadenial)

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Eldrazi Skyspawner (fly over TNN/Gofy, combo with displacer, blocks Delver/Flyers and token mana against moon)
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer (Barook and i already wrote alot about this card, overall improves many situations from Batterskull/Gofy over S&S/Marit Lage)
3 Wretched Gryff (big flying dude, delver/bolt/decay/push-proof too, get rid of useless Reshaper/Mimics etc.)
4 Matter Reshaper (gets better now with Sorcery-Sweeper/Liliana, fodder for Gryff and maybe drops nice cc3 cards: Jitte/Displacer/Sky etc.)

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas (S&S/Reanimate/DnT/Lands)
4 Corrupted Crossroads
2 Aether Hub

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Endbringer
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Spatial Contortion
SB: 2 All Is Dust

Overall this builds contains 13 sources for Eldrazi Spells with Devoid(Color) +2 Karakas (Displacer), maybe the numbers can be tweaked a little bit more (greedy for Wastelands^^). Note that Gryff can still be hardcast with colorless mana and Reshaper can put Skyspawner/Displacer directly on the battlefield too.

The build has 6 Creatures with Flying which should improve a lot of situations that aren't easy for common Eldrazi Builds. With access to Displacer the build is also equiped to deal with other harder matchups (S&S etc.).

With Mox and Skyspawner-Tokens the build have a kind of spare wheel to fight back against Moon effects too.

Sideboard can be anything else but i thought this should work against various decks/situations.

Feel free to discuss/test it.

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Feel free to discuss/test it.

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Man.. I would make room for a singleton Rasputin Dreamweaver in there somewhere for the combo finish.Can't pass up on the infinite mana + infinite blink on thought-knot seer to deck someone and it's easy to assemble with eye of ugin.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Man.. I would make room for a singleton Rasputin Dreamweaver in there somewhere for the combo finish.Can't pass up on the infinite mana + infinite blink on thought-knot seer to deck someone and it's easy to assemble with eye of ugin.

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Yeah i have this card ready but overall it needs another shell (more a kind of uW Thalia Stompy) so not part of the story here - but you are right it is one of the cool (to cool for legacy) Displacer interactions and you can win via endless TKS or Skyspawner (since you already need U-Mana) but overall a 3 card combo...

EDIT

last 5 matches with the build above:

2:1 Esperblade
2:1 MUD
2:1 UR Delver
2:1 DnT
2:0 Gideon Staxx

Overall having 6 flying Eldrazi seems solid as expected - ("Opponent cast moat, i transforms Smasher into a 3/4 Flyer etc." / Karakas itself works fine vs DnT and i got another testgame with T1 Grisel and Topdeck Karakas like a boss) Crucible might be too much, but it won me two Games (MUD/DnT) against multiple Wastelands. Sideboard is still flexible. Also note that Eldrazi Skyspawner can ramp nicely with his Scion into bigger stuff or if your opponent try to apply manadenial against you.

I went 4-0 last night beating Show And Tell, Re-Animator, and two Storm decks.
With this crazy list,

Tangle Wire managed to tap down my opponent's Show And Tell deck at just the right moment so that he couldn't cast anything. Karakas did heavy lifting in a previous game. Against Re-Animator, Thought-knot Seer and Karakas were a house. I'm very pleased with Tangle Wire and won't go back to Thorn Of Amethyst which I've placed in the board for Storm. The thing about Tangle Wire is that - yes, it's only a symmetrical effect some of the time unlike it is in Vintage where you have more stuff to tap down but like in Vintage you will sometimes have a Chalice or an Eye of Ugin to tap that won't effect you. The first time Tangle Wire comes around to tap you out, you only need to tap 3 things, including the Tangle Wire and a couple other things. I think losing tempo for only 1 or 2 turns is worth it if you can land a big threat on the battlefield. One thing to keep in mind about Tangle Wire is it worth it to play something like a Thought-knot Seer and then to Tangle Wire or is it better to cast a Reality Smasher?

12 Artifacts
4 Chalice Of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember

22 Creatures
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Endbringer

26 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Eye Of Ugin
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Karakas
4 Eldrazi Temple

My sideboard isn't the greatest,

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Ratchet Bomb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Next step from our discussion yesterday:

Uw-Eldrazi:

// 60 Maindeck

// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void (new police of the format)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (still best equip and it gets better with flying eldrazi)
3 Mox Diamond (permanent color and landfix)
1 Crucible of Worlds (can be another card but overall works good with mox and against manadenial)

// 25 Creature
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Eldrazi Skyspawner (fly over TNN/Gofy, combo with displacer, blocks Delver/Flyers and token mana against moon)
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Eldrazi Displacer (Barook and i already wrote alot about this card, overall improves many situations from Batterskull/Gofy over S&S/Marit Lage)
3 Wretched Gryff (big flying dude, delver/bolt/decay/push-proof too, get rid of useless Reshaper/Mimics etc.)
4 Matter Reshaper (gets better now with Sorcery-Sweeper/Liliana, fodder for Gryff and maybe drops nice cc3 cards: Jitte/Displacer/Sky etc.)

// 25 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas (S&S/Reanimate/DnT/Lands)
4 Corrupted Crossroads
2 Aether Hub

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Endbringer
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Spatial Contortion
SB: 2 All Is Dust

Overall this builds contains 13 sources for Eldrazi Spells with Devoid(Color) +2 Karakas (Displacer), maybe the numbers can be tweaked a little bit more (greedy for Wastelands^^). Note that Gryff can still be hardcast with colorless mana and Reshaper can put Skyspawner/Displacer directly on the battlefield too.

The build has 6 Creatures with Flying which should improve a lot of situations that aren't easy for common Eldrazi Builds. With access to Displacer the build is also equiped to deal with other harder matchups (S&S etc.).

With Mox and Skyspawner-Tokens the build have a kind of spare wheel to fight back against Moon effects too.

Sideboard can be anything else but i thought this should work against various decks/situations.

Feel free to discuss/test it.

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A more flyer-focused seems very interesting, at the very least, since it can block Delver and get around TNN.

Not too sure if CoW is any good, since it lacks the Wastelands to really abuse it. I'm not a fan of Mox Diamond in general, but with the higher color requirement, I don't think Petal would get the job done, either. The W/U Talisman might be an option, but it could be too slow as well.

Went 4-0 at the nightly legacy tournament.

Faced BR Reanimator, Abzan Loam, Food Chain and Sneak and Show. Got a bit lucky against the 2 last combo decks, but the match-up isn't as atrocious as I thought.

I want to try Fleetwheel Cruiser. Might be slightly too crazy, but that's my wheelhouse!

4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Oblivion Sower
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Endbringer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Warping Wail
3 Grim Monolith
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Forcefield
1 Batterskull

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Seagate Wreckage

4 Leyline of the Void
3 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Just a quick update:

The format very unpredictable, but clearly converging to fast combo. To the point where I faced 7 consecutive combo decks, a mix of storm, belcher, show and tell, mono red sneak attack, tin fins, aluren. Went 1-6 vs. those 7. I have also eschewed the factories and replaced them with Wastes (3x in main deck) to combat the very popular turn 1 blood moon decks. I also replaced my 2x wastelands for 1 city of traitors and 1 karakas.

When I have more positive results I will post a new decklist.

On another topic, I noticed that for the last two weeks, only one other Eldrazi deck has been posted. In my case, my 5-0 didn't make it, since they only take 10 per day, randomly selected. However, this is the 3rd or 4th time in a row that this happens to me (within a month's period or so). Has anyone else playing Eldrazi experienced the same? I'm not trying to imply WotC is intentionally biasing the lists, but if others are experiencing the same, maybe is worth asking them to review their methods of selecting lists. I don't care if the don't publish mine, I just want to see what others are trying and having success with.

Edit:

I just 5-0'd with this list:

2 Dismember
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Chalice of the Void
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Endless One
4 Eye of Ugin
2 Walking Ballista
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Reality Smasher
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wastes
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
2 Walking Ballista
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void
1 All Is Dust
1 Karakas

True to my word, I tested with Phyrexian Revoker and boy did it win me some games. Naming from LED to Moggcatcher to Deathrite Shaman. Karakas are there, but didn't need to use them. I big reason why I was able to win five games in a row was that i won 4 of the die rolls. I noticed that with the format as fast as it has become, winning the die roll is strongly correlated to one's chances of winning.

My current Uw Version (see discussion above)

// 60 Maindeck

// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond

// 26 Creature
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 Wretched Gryff
3 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Triskelion

// 25 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Corrupted Crossroads
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
2 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Wastes

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Walking Ballista
SB: 2 All Is Dust

Some notes:
-Flying Eldrazi are a very new thing and some players start rapidly searching for answer once you fly over TNN or are able to block Delver&Co. -Skyspawner itself can offer some nice ramp thanks to his token so you get some explosives turns with it (today i had, turn 1 skyspawner and mimic with mox+eye, following up with turn 2 TKS and Displacer) Combo with Displacer itself also one me a game against Blade because i was able to blink it two more times just for tokens and follow up with a lethal swing.
-Displacer itself is solid enough, one game i need to tutor for it with eye, because i was dying against lingerings-souls token equiped with Batterskull.
-i cutted Crucible because i have no Wastelands (but still experiment with lands/color), thought about a powerfull one off, starting with Endbringer, over World Breaker (more Blade with Equipment/more Sneak Attacks/Burn still has E.Bridge etc.) and now trying good old Triskelion. (for 6 Mana its better than Ballista because it is a 4/4 that is a) harder to kill and b) can quickly kill your opponent with displacer) so for me better as a one off target if you aren't able to win the game (bridge/moat/stalled field etc.)
-experimenting with land/color slots - i currently cutted both Aether Hubs and trying 1 Wastes and 1 more Eye (tutor/powerfull ramp/Wasteland target/and i have mox for useless copies) but it still can anything else (3rd City, manlands etc.)
-sideboard biggest change was the cut of 3 spot removal and add 3 ballista. For 2 mana you can either kill a dude or get a 1/1 Ballista, if you have the Removal you can kill bigger dudes, but in a lot of situations you also kill only a X/1 and if you have 4+ mana ballista gets better and is overall the better topdeck (you can also protected it with chalice) and i like to have creatures at side to keep a my creature count. Thanks to the flying brigade i also found out that i not need any instant solution against turn 1 delver
-i also found room for 2 Needle and i think this card should also be nice enough at the current meta chaos (stoping sneak/lands etc.)

How's the Ballista testing going?
I see many lists trying them out, but am kinda wondering about whether its worth it?

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Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411

How's the Ballista testing going?
I see many lists trying them out, but am kinda wondering about whether its worth it?

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Ballista is performing great! it's a creature and removal all in one. Plus it can be played under blood moon, and it even grows! I have several matchups vs. blood moon stompy won because I had ballista (and they didn't have revoker on ballista).

Just took another league 5-0 with the same configuration as my previous list. The metagame is normalizing, no more X consecutive games vs. storm or grixis delver. I even played against lands, and won, thanks to my 3xWastes and 2xKarakas in the deck ;)

I noticed that about half the players that were in Miracles went to a Bug or grixis delver variant, and the other half to Czech pile. Anyone else noticing similar trends?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qernavak

Ballista is performing great! it's a creature and removal all in one. Plus it can be played under blood moon, and it even grows! I have several matchups vs. blood moon stompy won because I had ballista (and they didn't have revoker on ballista).

Just took another league 5-0 with the same configuration as my previous list. The metagame is normalizing, no more X consecutive games vs. storm or grixis delver. I even played against lands, and won, thanks to my 3xWastes and 2xKarakas in the deck ;)

I noticed that about half the players that were in Miracles went to a Bug or grixis delver variant, and the other half to Czech pile. Anyone else noticing similar trends?

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Gratz

For what X value do you normally cast Ballista and how often are you leveling it up? I'm not sold on Ballista yet with the current manabase.