[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

And what about playing 4 meekstone in side, leaving 4 fow and 4 remand
you can play a meekstone on 4th turn our opp will counter it we remand it he counters and we FoW it. and if it comes into play we simply will win.
Its a card by one mana that literally stops ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
What about this idea because playing landstill I feel I win the entire meta except those fuckin ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match ups.
It even helps vs those dreadstill decks.
What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

And what about playing 4 meekstone in side, leaving 4 fow and 4 remand
you can play a meekstone on 4th turn our opp will counter it we remand it he counters and we FoW it. and if it comes into play we simply will win.
Its a card by one mana that literally stops ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
What about this idea because playing landstill I feel I win the entire meta except those fuckin ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match ups.
It even helps vs those dreadstill decks.
What do you guys think?

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The bad thing about meekstone, besides not beign an instant, is that it will not help you against counterbalance. Also, if you lose the first game and use meekstone to win the second, the oponent will board in Krosan Grip/Trygon Predator, and your trick will not work anymore.
I think that CB/top is a better idea, however I'm not sure yet.

The best solution is still Wipe Away, right? It deals pretty well with Counterbalance as far as I know. Even delaying them a turn will be enough. You get to untap, draw a card, play a land and then you can go off in response to them playing counterbalance. Also, Wipe Away can be wished for.

How does people splash? I prefer green splashes as they give Krosan Grip, Bound//Determined, the cheaper Naturalize and Moment's Peace (yes, Moment's Peace. Two timewalks against aggro, I take a sideboard slot) over white splashes since the things they only really give me are Chants and Abeyances. Disenchant will most likely be countered by Counterbalance too - that sucks.

Do we even need to splash a color to win against Counterbalance?

What about the red splash for Urzas rage. I saw that floating around, it kills teeg and MMage but also 2x can be a win condition that can not be messed with. (Its some where on deck check.net it seemed rather interesting)

well my friends I agree that meekstone can be good only for 2nd game but in 3rd game well face or trygon or krosan...
so therefore i really dont find any really good card is side vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh any body can help me.
I mean the pressure that tres puts on the voard is excessivenimble tarmo, I dont really find balance as a trouble because we have in side 4 snares and 2 wipeaway plus the 4 Fow and 4 remand from main...
but the tempo of a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh just is killer plus dazes plus Fow plus snares and plus full package of stifles... I even find the fucking Dreadnout versions a bad match up even worse than ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh because of they have the same amount of counters and stifles and plus 2 trickbind and the lonely 12/12 is quicker than our clock. If you boys find solution to those troubles we are facing the best deck in legacy: Solidarity because the rest of match ups are offensively easy.
Please help help¡¡¡

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Originally Posted by willoe

The best solution is still Wipe Away, right? It deals pretty well with Counterbalance as far as I know. Even delaying them a turn will be enough. You get to untap, draw a card, play a land and then you can go off in response to them playing counterbalance. Also, Wipe Away can be wished for.

How does people splash? I prefer green splashes as they give Krosan Grip, Bound//Determined, the cheaper Naturalize and Moment's Peace (yes, Moment's Peace. Two timewalks against aggro, I take a sideboard slot) over white splashes since the things they only really give me are Chants and Abeyances. Disenchant will most likely be countered by Counterbalance too - that sucks.

Do we even need to splash a color to win against Counterbalance?

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Counterbalance is a real problem, but Spellsnare works really good and if it resolves you still can Cryptic Command or Wipe Away EOT and win their next turn.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

well my friends I agree that meekstone can be good only for 2nd game but in 3rd game well face or trygon or krosan...
so therefore i really dont find any really good card is side vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh any body can help me.
I mean the pressure that tres puts on the voard is excessivenimble tarmo, I dont really find balance as a trouble because we have in side 4 snares and 2 wipeaway plus the 4 Fow and 4 remand from main...
but the tempo of a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh just is killer plus dazes plus Fow plus snares and plus full package of stifles... I even find the fucking Dreadnout versions a bad match up even worse than ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh because of they have the same amount of counters and stifles and plus 2 trickbind and the lonely 12/12 is quicker than our clock. If you boys find solution to those troubles we are facing the best deck in legacy: Solidarity because the rest of match ups are offensively easy.
Please help help¡¡¡

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Dude, your post is completely unreadable.

I've done some (not much) testing with CB. First thing I noticed is that a resolved CB will usually win you the game. This deck already has an excellent curve for both blind CB and assuring you will see a 1CC and a 2CC card on top of your deck.
However, CB is easy to counter. Lots of Thresh lists play Spell Snare. There's also a great chance your opponent will drop his CB before you do.

The Red splash is crap now. No one plays Mage or Teeg. It doesn't matter at all.

I'm still looking for better answers too. Meekstone crossen my mind earlier, and it seems interesting, especially since your opponent is definately not going to expect it.

well my friend keep thinking because my brain doesnt find another way to handle those , maybe porfir nodes, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and dreads match ups. If anybody find a way to deal with em I´ll be so pleased....

@ Pelikanudo: Please stop writing this way, it's very annoying and hard to read. ;)

You cannot win the Dreadstill-MU. Really, you can't. Counterbalance, Daze, Force of Will, Stifle, Trickbind and a 2 turn clock is more than Solidarity can handle.

As Bahamuth already said, the red splash is no longer useful. It was introduced, when NQGw played Meddling Mage. Since they run Counterbalance now, Sudden Shock became unnecessary. Urza's Rage and Twincast is pretty surplus - with 10 mana and a Cunning Wish, you are going to win anyways.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

well my friend keep thinking because my brain doesnt find another way to handle those , maybe porfir nodes, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and dreads match ups. If anybody find a way to deal with em I´ll be so pleased....

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If you want a good way to deal with those types of deck then either play a different deck or talk to Mike Herbig. He always found a way to beat those decks.

Mono-blue is the correct way to go if you want to pick up this deck and play. I just think the deck is too slow for the current format. Every other combo deck is just faster.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I just think the deck is too slow for the current format. Every other combo deck is just faster.

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Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

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And actually you don't need to. You just can wait until TES comboes (they won't actually do before they have at least one chant) and combo in response, abusing their storm. This makes it possible to win without being able to create an awesome lot of storm. And Belcher loses to any random Force.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

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That still makes it a combo deck in nature. You have to setup or draw properly in order to go off, and in any deck in which you need to - "go off" - that is combo.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats that you can't stop because you've boarded out necessary cards for counter-magic. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

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Originally Posted by A Legend

That still makes it a combo deck in nature.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

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Actually, what i think Shimster is saying is that you should not focus in the combo aspect only when playing Solidarity. If you do, you will probably lose miserably to control and other faster combo decks.

Solidarity has one of the stronger late games of the format. Counterspells are a good tool to get into the late game, and they also help you to protect yourself when comboing off. Besides, some of the "counterspells" of the deck are usefull when comboing, too: Remand (combined with brainfreeze), and cryptic command (to tap opponent's creatures, if needed).

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Originally Posted by A Legend

That still makes it a combo deck in nature. You have to setup or draw properly in order to go off, and in any deck in which you need to - "go off" - that is combo.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats that you can't stop because you've boarded out necessary cards for counter-magic. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

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You are right to a certain degree. Solidarity has (like lebarion said) probably the strongest lategame in the entire format. To archieve this strong lategame power, we don't actually need that many slots. I'm sure you too realise running counters does not only give you the opportunity to reach the lategame, but also gives us protection in the early game, which is absolutely great.

Oh, by the way, I want to emphasize this: Solidarity is not too slow for the current meta. If this would be true, Landstill would be too slow too, and we all know that isn't the case. Combo doesn't need to win as soon as possible, it needs to win at the right moment, which is when you know you can play trough your opponent's disruption. This is a strong argument for not boarding too many cards in and out vs. decks like Thresh. Once you know at what precise time to win (and that is really, really hard. There's no way I could do that reliably) and you have the ability to answer their earliest threats, you have quite a good shot at winning.

@A Legend: This totally depends on matchups.

You need to play control against other combodecks as you can't reliably highjack their storm (they'll find Chant or win before you can even try to). I can easily see playing FoW, Remand, Hydroblast, Spell Snare and Echoing Truth against fast-combo. Generally that is because you win if you survive their first assault. You either draw into your combo or into more control which is a win-win. Even with 6-8 additional dead cards, winning on 6+ land never is a problem.

@lebarion: That's not quite the point. You actually want to be combo. You can't win otherwise. Yet against decks that are faster than you (and there are quite some of them nowadays) you have to stop them from winning before you even get the chance to win yourself.

@jjjoness': Actually against TES there are some games postboard where _they_ become the control-deck with Shusher-powered Chants (and sometimes Blasts). Against a good TES-player highjacking their storm won't work. They'll just play Chant (or any other protection) during their upkeep and you pretty much have to Force. What you want to see least however is Xantid. If it resolves on turn 1 you are pretty much dead.

@Shimster: Would you mind posting your current list?

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Once you know at what precise time to win (and that is really, really hard. There's no way I could do that reliably) and you have the ability to answer their earliest threats, you have quite a good shot at winning.

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This is actually an argument for Peek. Maybe it is worth revisiting. Lately all of us seem to have it cut, yet that is the precise situation where it shines. Iirc Shimster still uses and likes it. I really don't like losing Opt but Magic is about compromises.

Unfortunately we have Regionals next Saturday so I probably won't be able to test it in actual tournament play, yet I'll try it. I too have lately found that I feared my opponents hand a lot when he actually just held nothing (i.e. 3 Wastelands and a Stifle and a Spell Snare against NQG/r).

About the splashes, I'm enjoying the green Splash ATM.

My SB including Krosan Grip/ Naturalize( gets around Chalice for 3 wich Stax/Stompy decks might want to play to stop Cunning Wish) and sometimes Quirion Dryad.

The Dryad is on the edge of Danger of cool things. But quite fun if you can pull it off and it makes it very hard for your opponent to board right game 3.

The red Splash isn't completly dead, because the Blasts can stop Counterbalance. Allthough it's a quite weak answer because it cant destroy the Balance most of the time.

If I don't play Dryad, I normally have a full set of Spell Snares( if I do, 3 at max) I can board in 6 cards against Counterabalance( 2 Krosan Grip and 4 Spell Snare).

BB

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Originally Posted by Van Phanel

@Shimster: Would you mind posting your current list?

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// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice. :laugh: In a black meta, Spell Snare is the better choice though.

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Iirc Shimster still uses and likes it. I really don't like losing Opt but Magic is about compromises.

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Originally Peek was a compromise, as well - I only had two foil Opt at the last tournament, but two foil Peeks. With hindsight, it was a great choice, as I would have lost two games without (Burn and UWb Landstill). Peek makes managing your ressources easy, therefore I would advise mainly beginners to play it.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice. :laugh: In a black meta, Spell Snare is the better choice though.


Originally Peek was a compromise, as well - I only had two foil Opt at the last tournament, but two foil Peeks. With hindsight, it was a great choice, as I would have lost two games without (Burn and UWb Landstill). Peek makes managing your ressources easy, therefore I would advise mainly beginners to play it.

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Why do you still play 3 Wipe Away in your sideboard with the Commands mainboard? What is your boarding plan vs. Thresh?

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Originally Posted by Shimster

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice.

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Fire//Ice doesn't counter Cryptic Command.