[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

^^ LuLz That wasn't direct at Tariq's post, the post above his. Sorry, we missed most of the syracuse players.

Post #700.

What I learned at the 5k this past weekend:
I fof'd into 4 lands and a bs 2/4 times.
Jace drew me 1 card the entire tournament.
Negate was solid out of the board against combo.
Plague was extremely good against 4c thresh shutting off bob + clique.

Planar void was a surprise shocker against combo because he couldn't go for
a chant protected iggy loop.

Counterspell is still good.
Academy + Ruins > format.

Main deck shackles was absolutely worthless. If shackles was anything from wrath #3 to humility to disk, I probably could have won more matches.

2 vindicates was a surprisingly good number.
Never play less then 3 engineered explosives.
The 4th brainstorm, while not completely necessary, was nice to have.
The 4th standstill would not have made a different in my results.
I lost to faeries, again, with 4 plagues in my sb.
Zoo goldfishes turn 4-5.

Sometimes it is best to let chant resolve when you have force and counterspell in your hand with 1 land in play and no other response you can do because you just add to their storm count (My opponent tendrils me for 18 and I won at 1 life.)

@rockout
how did you do, did you run red?

I went 1-2-2 losing to UB faeries, 4c Thresh, drawing against 4c thresh and TES, and winning against 4c thresh. Thresh is normally a deck I CRUSH, I got land flooded and out played by some not so good players :cry: .

No red, Hadley will be the break out tournament for red deck wins.

@rockout: What are the ways to stop Zoo? It sounds as if you're saying Landstill has a bad matchup against Zoo. I know that Zoo is very popular now, and it's incredibly fast, with big beaters and good toughness too. I still think that Wish-builds can survive against Zoo via Pulse.

I've been contemplating on a little change to landstill, at least to lists running 1x Enlightened Tutor. I opt for 1 Mystical Tutor instead and running 1 FoF MD for tutorable counters/carddraw/wishes. Not to mention, running 1 Pulse MD and 1 Pulse SB with 1 Tutor ups the amount of pulse copies against Zoo and Goblins. With the new rules changes, Landstill should never lose to aggro, and should focus on improving the combo matchup, which is with Negate in the board.

@crz87: Preset ee @ 1 on the play. Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins is where Shackles was supposed to shine in my main deck but I unfortunately didn't play any of those matches. Save your swords for Thoctar/Goyf. They have the most unstable mana base of any deck I can think of. Use that to your advantage. If your life is over 12 by t4/t5 then you probably have a good chance of winning. And yes, wish for pulse is going to be a million times better post-M10.

Hmm, main deck mystical tutor. I know I tried it as a wish target, but I guess it's a possibility. Let me know how that works out for you.

Tariq (my round 4 opponent) said he smashed two Zoo decks in the first 3 rounds by going Wish -> Pulse. He said they couldn't handle it but PoP still made things interesting. In my limited experiences in the Zoo matchup, I've found that if you can keep the field clean and save your counters for PoP, you can survive long enough to find Wish. It's still a tough matchup, for sure.

@rockout: Did you run SDT? If so, do you think it slows down the play of the deck, making it difficult to complete the third, and sometimes second, games?

The main reason I don't run top is due to the time of rounds. Its bad enough that I drew twice on Sunday. When a player tops before his upkeep, then during his turn, then at EOT, then in response to each spell I cast, then I don't feel its my fault for drawing. Its just one of those elements to the game where its easy to waste time.

I didn't say Zoo is a bad match-up, I was merely commenting on the speed of the deck.

I know you are all thinking: top helps you find win conditions quicker thus negating the time it would normally take. Well, if you think that, then by all means run it, I still will run fof instead of top. I don't need a t1 play besides snare on the draw.

I agree completely. While Top is super powerful in helping find answers, I've found the time disadvantage in a straight control deck is very difficult to overcome. I didn't complete a single 3-game match in 6 rounds, and while I could probably speed up my play if I really focused on playing quickly, I would end up making more mistakes. If I was to bring Landstill to a large event again (which I probably won't do for a while), I would probably cut Top.

Here is my list for discussion. Running Mystical Tutor, reasons to be followed up.

23 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

12 Draw/Tutors
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction

9 Permission
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

12 Removal
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
3 Wrath of God

4 Win-conditions
2 Elspeth
2 Decree of Justice


SB (crap at the moment but this is tuned against Zoo, combo, burn i.e. our weakest matchups)
2 Pulse of the Field
2 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Negate
2 Ajani Goldmane


Mystical Tutor has always been discussed as tutor vs card disadvantage. In Landstill, card advantage is crucial, but many times I've won on the back of a tutor spell e.g. Cunning Wish EOT. Running Mystical Tutor in decks like TES/ANT forgoes card advantage by grabbing your much needed card. I think it's a worthy consideration, in fact, it's a much better alternative than Enlightened Tutor in non-Humility builds. Trust me, I love Humility, but I've lost many games because of how they've dragged on. I'm playing a faster list, a hybrid of Speedstill and Wishstill with Mystical Tutor replacing Wishes.

2 Vindicates can be tutored, Wrath can be tutored, so as Swords, so the aggro matchup isn't too bad. The ONE-card disadvantage is offset by the very fact that this deck IS a deck of card advantage. Mystical in response to a triggered Standstill is more than golden when you fetch for a FOW or Spell Snare or Stp. Not to mention, the deck is speeded up with tutoring Decree at EOT. Too many creatures on board? EOT Tutor for Wrath. Getting burned too much? EOT tutor for Pulse (after SBing). Need a counter/stp? Tutor for it, need to draw more cards because you have too little cards in your hand for a blue player? Tutor up FoF.

Much of the time, Landstill plays a draw-go style and plays the ONLY sorcery when really needed to i.e. wrathing to save your ass, Elspeth when you're in the lead, and Standstills to lock the game. But everything else is basically played EOT. Mystical Tutor therefore becomes less of an issue that you cannot draw the spell at that turn, and as I've mentioned, under a triggered Standstill, Tutor is pretty good. To be honest, I would love to run 2 Top, so I might drop a Brainstorm and another card since Top allows you to draw that card you tutored for if you really need to, and Top + Tutorfetching is pretty good as an alterantive to fetchlands.

The playstlye and boardplans are obviously different, as compared to wish builds. You now have to board in your "wish-cards", I opt to run 2 Extirpate and 2 Pulse in the side in this version of Landstill since with 2 Tutors and 2 of each spell, you're techinically playing a potential 4-copy, making it much easier to deal with the troublesome MUs. Overall, I've been pleased in theory with the list, and will put it to test this Sunday if my cards come in. I've always wanted to play 2 Fact or Fiction MD but Landstill is such a bitch to design since space is super tight. I want to run 4 FoF if possible, but Landstill is already super heavy on the 4cc slot so this is not possible. I love MUC and I think its strength lies in the fact that it plays 4 Facts (OMG) so this list has a potential 4 Fact or Fiction, is faster in terms of playing and going i.e. less shenanigans. This is the list that I've conjured and looks competitive for a fresh list, and FoF also covers the card loss from Mystical Tutor, and tutoring for FOF EOT is YL :D

Mystical in response to a Standstill would be an epic fail. You would never draw the cards.

Cunning Wishes seem better in the tutor spot and they are not -1.

You can wish for any card that you could tutor for, except for vindicate and decree but in that cast you could go get removal of choice or a fact or fiction to draw the decree the old fashioned way. Which would be more CA.

Oh and the correct term would be EOTFOFGG?

My bad on the Standstill. Dang it, that would be so cool, but the whole idea on running Mystical Tutor over wishes is that sometimes you need an early answer to threats i.e. before turn 3, and Wish is very mana hungry. Most likely I'll run the Wish instead of Tutor, but Wishes have been a little tight for me since I opt to run Vindicate. Also, Wishes with Fact or Fictions MD seem too clunky and filling out too much on the higher cc end, although Wish is really good against Stax-based decks wishing for a Rebuild/Return to Dust.

I'll post results this weekend if I get to play this list.

lol, Good Luck at the event, I am also trying to speed landstill up, my list is a page back and noone has touched it. It plays very consistant for me and has a good game against alot of the problem decks for us.

LavaFrogg's Organized list:

Code:

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4 Flooded Strand
1 Tolaria West
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Tropical Island

2 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
4 Mishras Factory

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Engineered Explosive
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare

2 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pithing Needle

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Some possible changes:
3 Flooded Strand
3 windswept heath
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishras Factory

1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth

3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
3 Top
1 Jace

3 Engineered Explosive
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath
1 disk

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counter spell

1 Life from the loam
2 K grip

If you wanted to add wish we could add a sexy little loam type of package for you.

If you REALLY want needle in you are going to have to play Trinket Mage. Though if you going this far you mine as well just run UGw thresh, and add T Dizzle to the mix.

There are soo many more Cool and intuitive "oh I used it" things that you can do because of Loam, but it all comes down to what you REALLY want to do.

I'm a huge fan of Crucible main since a resolved Crucible allows you to make land drops every turn with a fetchland, improving consistency. But I disagree with Dustbowl. With 2 Crucible main, I would like 2 Wastelands. Tolaria West has always been a waste of space for me.

I might try 2 Crucible. Any opinions on Mystical Tutor? To confirm Mystical Tutor v.s. Standstill, opponent cracks Standstill, trigger of Standstill on stack. If you respond by Mystical Tutoring, Standstill triggers again, cracking and your opponent draws 3, the first trigger now doesn't resolve since Standstill is no longer in play. Am I right?

@Mossivo, I had a Loam list like 10-20pages back. It did well, but played even more slow than traditional list. It had Intuition/Loam engine in it, which was pretty broken. I do like lavafrog's list. It's not traditional landstill at all, and Ponder seems good. He's playing more cantrips like Thresh, but a lategame plan. I still prefer turn4GG versions of Landstill though.

*Crucible in this format is often a dead card in many matchups.

-Therefore; it needs to be replaced with either something more efficient "loam" or placed in the sideboard in favor of something much more practical.

Intuition loam in landstill isn't at all neccesary. You mine as well play a deck that utilizes loam better then landstill can.

Ponder was crap in comparison to Top. Read GP chicago tourney report, or even way back when before I played Top. Ask Rockout or Geoff or Well Dif is gone, but I promise you that isn't the right direction.

Meh i'm done Contributing to this thread. Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

lol, Good Luck at the event, I am also trying to speed landstill up, my list is a page back and noone has touched it. It plays very consistant for me and has a good game against alot of the problem decks for us.

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I suppose reducing the number of fetches and duals increases your resilience to stifle / waste, giving you better game against goblins, tempo thresh and merfolk. And you solved the color screw problem by simply removing all of the cards (other than E. Dragon) that had a double color requirement, thus eliminating Wrath, Counterspell and Elspeth and replacing them with cantrips to smooth out your draw. Very elegant solutions, and I can't wait for a tournament or some testing reports, to see how you do.
But I have some concerns about this iteration of the deck.

Firstly, cutting wrath of god. I love wrath of god. I have a no-bones about it crush on this card. If it were in a boy band, I would buy posters for it. I think the reason I like it so much is that we’re just about the only deck left that runs it. Some quinn decks run it, the occasional white stax or stompy deck still runs it, but most have replaced it with life linking angels, Elspeth, humility or moat, and so aggro decks don’t see it coming and walk into it. It’s so beautiful. E.E., as much as I love it later, doesn’t offer the same kind of card and tempo advantage early game when we (and by we, I mean I) need it. Could you show us some matchups so we could see how your EEs are helping you?

Secondly, Sideboard slots that have double costs. Pulse of the fields is about to become stupid good. I mean, agro decks should be crying it’s so good, now. It’s really, really hard for something like zoo or burn or sligh to push through an active pulse. Your cutting of the double white costs makes me nervous. I also use Ajani Goldmane in the sideboard as well, another WW card that’s a beating against a lot of matchups. What’s your sideboard look like, and what matchups are you trying to shore up?

Why do you have two crucible maindeck? You don’t have wasteland or fact or fiction, unless I’m blind. Are they purely to recur your four fetches?

Pithing Needle Maindeck. I’m curious how this is working for you. I have seen some pretty awesome pithing needles, (for example, turn one belcher, on the other guy’s turn, pithing needle naming belcher) but I haven’t tried them in Landstill, and certainly not maindeck.

The other bit of uneasiness I have is about those three ponders. I don’t like them, and I can’t exactly say why. The theory behind them is sound; you’re moving cards around making sure that you draw the cards that you want, rather than the cards that are dead in your matchup. You then shuffle the useless cards away with a fetch or whatever. I recently lost a game against solidarity where I drew two wraths, four swords and an EE, all worthless in the matchup, so a ponder would have helped (maybe) mitigate the effects of terrible draw. And yet, my spider senses are itching to cut them for something else. So, when you get to the tournament report I’m asking for, make sure you pay attention to how your ponders perform.

Also, since you have the green splash, in my experience, a singleton nantuko monastery is totally worth it. I’ll be moving to the black splash eventually (vindicate looks sooo good) but until I get the black duals, I’ll be sitting on my green ones and bashing people’s faces in with creature that’s a 4/4 first striker under humility.

Ponder is absolutely awful in landstill. Moss played 3-4 in his list at the GP and he spent almost 2 months getting me to play his list and after the tournament he said to me: ponder sucks. I went, I know. Run more business in the ponder slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rockout

Ponder is absolutely awful in landstill. Moss played 3-4 in his list at the GP and he spent almost 2 months getting me to play his list and after the tournament he said to me: ponder sucks. I went, I know. Run more business in the ponder slot.

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I'm glad you agree with my spider senses.

If you're gonna run intuition + loam wouldn't it be better to just switch to ITF?