Nice results versus Storm, bearing in mind you play Zoo. That was thanks to Thalia, or your opponents just failing?
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Nice results versus Storm, bearing in mind you play Zoo. That was thanks to Thalia, or your opponents just failing?
A healthy amount of both :D thalia gives just enough edge to get there, and 4 gaddock's after board is good too. I think that I could have done with 1 less thalia or teeg and made some room for qasali pridemages though. Esper is a popular matchup and without artifact hate it is too hard. Between the matchups I had, I felt like MUD was pretty much unwinnable with my decklist unless they got a crap draw, show and tell is next to impossible without knight/karakas, and Jund and esper just beat me in fair fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by crow_mw
I played Zoo last night and was very pleased - went 3-0-1 (would have been 4-0 if I didn't go to time against goblins). Ranger of Eos is great imho. Played a 1 of in the board but think he belongs in the main, maybe even two. Here's the list I'm brewing:
Creatures: 20
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ranger of Eos
Burn/Removal: 16
4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Helix
4 Path
Other: 3
2 Library
1 Jitte
Lands: 21
3 Basics
11 Fetches
7 Duals
Board:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Gaddock Teeg or Thalia
I'm still debating other board slots but think these 9 should be in there. Here are other options: Chant, Grip/Grudge, Crypt, Jitte, Boros Charm (saves lands against sinkholes as well), Ooze, etc.
I really like Zoo in the current metagame as the burn just finishes people off. Might not be great against Miracles but library and Ranger are amazing in that matchup.
So, I recently created a Zoo list splashing Blue for Delver of Secrets and Brainstorm. The synergy between Brainstorm and Thunderous Wrath is obbious, so i decided to test Wrath as a 3-of and I am really happy with it. I know you can basically give up if someone plays a full set of Wastelands but I have been testing it for days against a friend of mine who plays 3 in a Boros DnT deck and it has been running pretty amazing. Here's my list:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Loam Lion
1 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Chain Lightning
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
Shockduals suck, I know. But I have a fast clock(Goldfish T3, Usually T4-5€) and the lifeloss doesn't really matter against my meta(no Burn). Please give suggestions!
Hidden Herd seems interesting, but can you explain why this is main deck? If you don't draw it on the first two turns, it's completely a dead draw vs. RUG Delver. What match up is Hidden Herd better than loam lion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin
I have the same question about Thunderous Wrath. Is the 2 extra damage, sorcery speed, and requirement of having brainstorm to set it up, actually better than just running more Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix? It's a dead draw if you don't have a brainstorm and if you miracle it, it forces you to decide between advancing your board or not.
It seems like both these cards just make you less consistent.
I have been playing blue zoo for about a year and quater. I have a few comments. Yoou almost are forced to go into a thresh like shell for this to keep delver effective. Your deck only has 17 spells. That is not going to be very good for flipping delver. For reference here is my listQuote:
Originally Posted by Martin
3 wooded foothills
4 scading tarn
2 misty rainforest
1 flooded stand
2 volcanic island
2 tropical island
1 taiga
1 tundra
1 savannah
1 badlands
1 plateau
4 force of will
3 daze
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightnign bolt
4 tribal flames
3 chain lightning
1 green sun zenith
2 grim lavamance
4 tarmogoyf
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl
@ Martin and ajfennewald: you should check the following link:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=3650&d=221854
I think the list has been discussed before in this threat.
@Capt4in
Greetings and thank you for the input. First I thought I should say its normal to have "godawful" ideas floating around. There are a mix of old and new players on these forums (read: more experienced vs less experienced) and hence its normal to have a "wtf" idea make an appearance when someone seems to get some deep discussion kick-started. However, look on the bright side, there might be ideas that make the oldies go "oh snap, why didn't I think of that". I can't personally quote any examples of that happening before, but hey who knows.
Alright onto the beef, I agree with everything you said about boros charm except the last bit. I think the 3rd ability can be relevant in situations that are narrow but crucial. It allows 5/6 goyfs to beat through a batterskull for example. The very knowledge that boros charm exists means opponents might have to respect it and adjust accordingly during creature combat. That itself can lead them to make suboptimal plays and is a subtle benefit we did not consider.
Your friend says youre a zoo expert :) I'm pretty new to the archetype having played with Lands and goblins for a long time (I had to finally abandon ship on lands after facing huge problems dealing with rest in peace and deathrite shaman - those are awful cards against any graveyard based deck trying to grind it out).
I would like to hear your thoughts on zoo's position in the current metagame and what you think is the way forward. A list of what you currently play would also be great. Have a good day.
I can offer some input on this front after having played zoo at a couple recent big tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
The position in the metagame can largely be determined by what version of zoo you play, and the maindeck choices that you have.
Big Zoo - Better vs Midrange decks, especially with bloodbraid elf for card advantage.
Small Zoo - Better vs combo (faster clock), sometimes can outrace control by playing through removal and going for burn kill.
Standard Zoo - A mix of the two, best vs an unknown field. No accelerators or planeswalkers like big zoo, and not as weak to chalice on 1.
Price Of Progress hits much of the format right now for at least 6 damage, so I would also include that in the 75, 2-3 is probably correct.
Let's look at what is popular now, based on this list (from Jan 24th):
http://screencast.com/t/DL0Fxsfz3
First,
Jund:
I have found this match to be about 50/50. They can gain an advantage if the game goes for too long, or they hit the good stuff in your hand with early discard. The strategy here is to keep liliana off the board as much as possible and keep their creature count low with removal; only burning their life when they are low. Don't keep a wasteland vulnerable hand (1-2 duals), and kill deathrite at first sight. Abrupt Decay is very good vs your knights/equipments, if you have them.
MvPs: Grim Lavamancer (hits everything but goyf), Price Of Progress, punishing fire + grove if you're into that, Bloodbraid Elves of your own, and possible pithing needle from board.
Esper Stoneblade:
This match is tough, you need a couple Qasali Pridemages main if you hope to win game 1. They can snap-removal everything you play, and heaven forbid jitte ever hits the board with spirit tokens in play. Batterskull is a problem (life gain really hurts us), so if they fetch it with stoneforge mystic kill her on sight. If you have Kgrips or Ancient Grudge in your sideboard this becomes easier, but still tough. Hope they aren't playing Academy Ruins, and if they are wasteland it ASAP if you have it. Just keep attacking and attempt to deal with the removal they dish out.
MvPs: Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Scavenging Ooze (to remove lingering souls and swords to plowshares from yard), Gaddock teeg to block Jace. Price Of Progress can hit them real good if they don't play around it. REB/Pyroblast for Jace.
RUG Delver:
Finally a match that isn't that bad. Your creatures are better, you have removal for delver and goyf, and their counterspells are bad against you. Play around Daze with crucial creatures like goyf and KotR, and try not to walk into stifle/wasteland screw.
MvPs: Knight of the Reliquary, removal suite, Jitte if in your 75. Price Of Progress, again making a great appearance (notice the trend?).
Team America/BUG:
This deck isn't that great against us either. These decks are optimized for fighting control/combo decks, and often crumble to aggro; but it can depend on the build. They won't have enough removal for our deck. Kill all deathrites, don't waste creatures by attacking into untapped baleful strix. Kill planeswalkers ASAP.
MvPs: Burn (kills most creatures and planeswalkers), Gaddock, Price Of progress (yep, 4 of the best decks in the format are soft to this). REB/Pyroblast for Jace.
Reanimator:
This match is so/so, you have to hope for Karakas or Knight to fetch it out. This match is almost impossible for small zoo. They are usually only UB, so price is not as good as it is against the other decks. Just play early creatures, attack, and hope they don't get a shroud/hexproof creature out that you can't beat (Empyrial Archangel is really rough). Gets much better post board if you have 'yard hate.
MvPs: KotR, Karakas, Scavenging Ooze (of you have any), Path To Exile for fatties, Grafdiggers/Tormod's/Faerie Macabre/bojuka bog/rest in peace from sideboard.
Show and Tell:
Worst matchup by far. You can attack and hope for the best. Always pack Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts in the board, maybe even oblivion ring to show into play. Fast zoo has a chance if they struggle, other variants can get knight in to play to tutor karakas asap. If they show emrakul: bounce asap with karakas. If they show griselbrand: Path/karakas asap. If they show sneak attack: kill asap with qasali. If they show omniscience, kill with qasali asap.
MvPs: KotR, Karakas, pithing needle (if sneak attack version), qasali pridemage, red elemental blast/pyroblast.
Tendrils:
This is why I play maindeck thalias. This matchup is tough, but still better than reanimator or show and tell. Your hatebears are the only defense that you can have maindeck. As with the other bad matchups, this gets better post board. thalia/Teeg/cannonist/mindbreak trap/pyrostatic pillar can all be used, but I recommend thalia and teeg split.
MvPs: Thalia, Teeg, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar. Sideboard should contain at least 4 slots for this matchup, I play in the west coast so I have 8 slots (3 main 5 sideboard usually).
Miracles:
This matchup is pretty similar to Esper Stoneblade. They will snap removal you, and if they get counter-top you are likely screwed. Thanks to Jund/Abrupt Decay decks, this is not as prevalent in the metagame anymore, but still something to watch for. Attack like there is no tomorrow and hope they don't get terminus or entreat. Becomes better postboard with addition of Kgrip/REB/pyroblast/pithing needle. If the game goes long you will lose.
MvPs: Qasali Pridemage, REB/Pyroblast/Gaddock Teeg (shuts down major threats besides countertop; they have to swords him asap), pithing needle (if in side).
I can keep going with other popular decks, but I am off work now and need to go.
Thank you for the in depth analysis ironclad. It seems that we're not very well positioned in the current meta game and won't be making a comeback anytime soon.
Maybe I missed something, but what are folks thinking about Boros Charm in zoo? I think it's an upgrade to Price of Progress and can make for blowouts with Goyf. I plan on working in 2x Boros Charm in my Sligh Zoo setup.
Wonder what other folks are thinking...
Did you read the last few pages of the thread? We talked about it before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I built my list based on Mary Jacobson's Top 16 list from GP Atlanta. [brags] It's currently all-foil and the duals are German FBB. The REBs are Beta. [/endbrags]Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm/2 Sulfuric Vortex/1 Lightning Helix, 1 Price of Progress
The last sideboard slot changes based on what I'm expecting more of. Vortex for fields heavy on Stoneblade/other UW decks, Pyroclasm if I'm expecting a decent amount of Goblins/Affinity, an extra Helix and Price if I'm expecting a wider field or a lot of BUG/RUG.
As for the metagame position, I think we are favored vs RUG/BUG: these decks are the reason to play Zoo, our creatures outclass theirs and we have way more removal. You should win any game against these decks that you don't get Wastelanded out.
We are not favored vs combo of basically all flavors, though I think some matchups, like ANT, High Tide, Dredge, and Reanimator are a lot closer than people think. ANT and High Tide usually go off around turn 3-4, giving you plenty of time to race. ANT in particular needs life in order to go off, so if you can knock them down to 10-11 life fairly quickly, they have a hard time not killing themselves. Don't be afraid to sling bolts at the dome as early as you can. High Tide is very slow and easily disrupted with a single Red blast postboard. Dredge is actually a pretty grindy matchup, since they should never be able to get a token from Bridge from Below, since you can almost always kill one of your own guys to get rid of them. This leaves them trying to race you with Ichorids (which you can path or just race, seeing as your guys are faster and you have Helix) or setting up a Dread Return. Reanimator is a matchup I've personally had a lot of luck with lately, so maybe it's just a small sample size bias, but the fact that Reanimate often deals 9-10 damage to them will allow you to steal a lot of wins. One thing I like to do is to sandbag burn when I think they are about to go off and try to burn them out with Griselbrand's ability on the stack (after they are down 7 life but before they have a fresh hand full of counters). TES is very rough but you should be able to steal a few wins. Show and Tell and Belcher are pretty much unwinnable. Your goal is to dodge this deck.
We are fairly even vs Stoneblade/Miracles. Miracles in particular is really not set up to handle a decent amount of reach, especially when you have answers to Counterbalance postboard. I usually get them to 10-12 life with creatures before getting wrathed out, and then burn them out as the game goes long, since I have more Bolts than they have creatures. Stoneblade is usually well-equipped to play a grindy game with us, but as they don't usually have Wraths you can usually remove all of their threats while forcing through a couple of dudes. Batterskull is pretty rough, hence the two Krosan Grips in the board.
I actually think Goblins is much worse of a matchup than it used to be. Krenko in particular gives that deck a way to just crush most board states, and they are usually very well equipped to overload your removal and just chump block your guys forever.
Burn is basically a bye, especially with Leylines in the board. (Which are there primarily for storm, but I chose them over the other options because they provide splash hate for burn and they are resilient to duress/silence while buying you enough turns to win. You don't need to lock a Storm player out completely, you just need to slow him down by a turn or two, i.e. while they find a bounce spell)
Edit: Forgot to talk about Junk and Maverick. These decks are somewhat unfavorable, though not so bad as combo is. Jund has the removal to keep you on the back foot and the clock to stop you from closing out with burn. Maverick can usually shut you down on the ground fairly quickly and take over with a Knight. However, these matchups are basically the only reason to put garbage like Bloodbraid Elf and Knight into your Zoo deck, and I think this narrow section of the field isn't worth it. These decks are built to prey on fair decks like Zoo, and changing your deck to fight them is just going to cause you to become an awkward inbred fair deck that is giving up its only real edge.
As for some of the other lists floating around in this thread, I think Knight and Thalia are absolutely terrible in Zoo. The reasoning is the same that I often saw a few years ago (around the time of GP Providence) for playing stuff like Wasteland in Zoo. The problem is that when you're playing Zoo you really don't care about a lot of the things that normal decks care about. Knight of the Reliquary seems particularly bad to me right now because it eats it very hard to Abrupt Decay and a vanilla 5/5 or whatever just isn't where I want to be spending my mana. At least Woolly Thoctar isn't soft to Deathrite Shaman. Thalia might be slowing down your opponents, but there are often going to be times where you play a Thalia, your opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman and a Bob, and you have a fistful of removal and 2 lands and can't stop your opponent from getting ahead. Thalia hurts us often as much if not more than many opposing blue decks.
As for different versions of Zoo, the "Big Zoo" and "Standard Zoo" described by others, in my mind, are basically just "Bad Jund" and "Bad Maverick", and I subscribe to the "Prime Directive", which is "Never play a bad something else". The reason to play Zoo over another deck is because it's (in most cases) a better burn deck than burn. It's not a better midrange deck than Jund, and it's not a better creature deck than Maverick. You need to be clocking your opponent as hard as possible as consistently as possible and punishing every stumble that you can.
Overall, I agree that Zoo really isn't much of a deck right now, but it has some reasonable matchups, and certainly some amount of format/deck knowledge will often carry the day. I certainly do better playing Zoo than any other deck, just on the basis of how long I've spent playing it.
Re: Price hitting for 6+ damage, I actually have found that it takes a lot of effort to "get" someone with Price, and the times it sits wasted in your hand or your opponent plays around it (which is fairly frequent, if they are competent) are pretty brutal. I think hitting for a consistent 4 with Boros Charm, plus the added utility of that card, make it better. I plan on cutting my 2 Prices for Boros Charms as soon as my foil Charms arrive in the mail. :)
Speaking of Wooly Toctar, I just came a little bit when I just thought about that guy backed by a Pridemage then Boros Charming it.
Also probably too cute, but I want to try out that 1/1 Battlion goblin from Gatecrash in a fast Zoo sligh type list.
If you thought I was advocating Woolly Thoctar over Knight of the Reliquary, you are mistaken. I was using Thoctar as an argument to show how bad Knight is. Thoctar isn't good in Zoo either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
The battalion goblin is not playable. Raging Goblin is atrocious and this guy isn't much better - most lists are only slightly more than one-third creatures, and requiring this guy plus two more (and none of them having been removed) for a very marginal benefit is not worth it.
@movingtonewao: This is the kind of activity I was complaining about. People who think Zoo is the place to shove every mediocre aggressive card that gets printed.
But Zoo is an aggressive-ish, albeit mediocre deck. What other cards would you expect people to suggest playing? Blue draw spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
I would expect people to look at a card, compare it to a card that is already in the deck, realize that Raging Goblin probably isn't as good as Kird Ape, and not mention it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Edit: But yes, I do realize that you are trolling. I certainly hope that Esper3k was.
Obviously, neither Wooly Thoctar nor the Legion Loyalist are cards for obvious serious consideration, but suggesting cards for consideration is how decks evolve. Bringing up cards may inspire someone to further develop an idea and make it work. For example, Legion Loyalist could conceivably have applications against decks like Esper Stoneblade, which runs Lingering Souls and Batterskull. Giving your 'Goyf and Nacatls trample as well as making them unblockable by Spirit or Germ tokens sounds pretty decent to me. Legion Loyalist is clearly going to be great in Goblins, but it may also have a home in a heavy aggressive creature deck.
Zoo hasn't been a serious Legacy consider for a long time now. Suggesting the same generic Zoo lists and refusing to even consider cards outside of what was played 2 years ago isn't going to make the deck any better.
I also find it somewhat amusing that someone who clearly hasn't contributed much yet is complaining about other people's posts in this OMG SRS BSNS thread.
Maybe you should take a look at Skyknight Legionnaire. It could certainly have applications coming down and attacking a planeswalker right away, or flying over enemy blockers. Another card to check out is Slaughterhorn. It gives you another do-nothing three-drop that will sometimes let your Wild Nacatl beat up on a Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
See, I can come up with rationalizations for terrible cards, too. Doesn't change the fact that they are unplayable in Legacy. Anyways, this is basically the reason I never post in this thread/on these boards (endless streams of terrible ideas). Good luck with your Legion Loyalist/Woolly Thoctar/Isamaru/Vinelasher Kudzu/Gyre Sage/Boggart Ram-Gang/Goblin Legionnaire/Domri Rade build.
I've been running a similar list Capit4in, but I run 2 Sylvan Libraries maindeck, and no Lightning Helix at all. I used to run 3 Price of Progress and 1 Fireblast, but since Boros Charm was printed, I was willing to give it a try. And it's pretty good actually. All abilities are relevant and the casting cost is easy on the manabase.
My list is the following:
Lands [19]
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures [23]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells [18]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Boros Charm
2 Price of Progress
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
I just can't play Relic of Progenitus as graveyard hate because is shrinks my goyf to an useless 0/1. Grafdigger's Cage is better against Dredge, as well. Sometimes I feel 23 creatures is a low number, but I can't see any other creatures that makes the cut (perhaps Goblin Guide). Pithing Needle is needed on the sideboard to screw Sensei's Divining Top, which is heavily played in a lot of DTBs.
About the matchups analysis:
RUG: favourable. Don't walk into Stifle and everything should be fine, our creatures are better than theirs, and we have more creatures. Path to Exile is awesome, as they don't run any basics.
BUG: favourable. Price of Progress just murder them. Use removal to clear the path, and swing hard. They usually have only 4 Abrupt Decays as removal, and we have a lot of must-kill creatures, such as Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer.
Jund: even. Jund has plenty removal, usually 4 Bolts, 4 Abrupt Decays and some numbers of Edict effects, or even Punishing Fire. In this matchup, we have to kill Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman on sight, and swing fast. Otherwise, they'll Hymn our hand away and cast Bloodbraid Elf to win. Post-board gets better with Leylines of Sanctity.
Junk/Rock: even. This deck is deck also has a lot of removal. And they usually run Knight of the Reliquary or Stoneforge Mystic, which are really dangerous guys. Against this deck, a turn 1 Nacatl is very effective, and should swing for 6~9 damage before getting plowed of decayed. You usually get your board wiped and finish with burn.
Maverick: slightly unfavourable. This deck is really good in stalling the board. Mother of Runes and Knight are the biggest enemies, and Scavenging Ooze can also do some work. This game usually better when you cast Tarmogoyf or Grim Lavamancer early, and get rid of Mom ASAP.
Miracles: very unfavourable. Snapcaster Mage and Terminus just rain on your parade. You can't get in for much damage before they stabilize, and once they do, it's game. Counterbalance does an excelent job at keeping our burn at bay, and Jace is overwhelming after a sweeper. Post-board doesn't get much better, you can side in Krosan Grips, REBs, and Pithing Needles and hope for the best.
Esperblade: even. They have Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, which are really boring to deal with. Price of Progress is effective to some extent, and Path to Exile is horrible. Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage are really good creatures to cast early. Post-board gets easier with Red Elemental Blasts and Ancient Grudge.
Show and Tell: very unfavourable. This combo is dumb, and too fast for Zoo. A good player won't activate Griselbrand before swinging/blocking with it, and we can't answer Emrakul. You can try to race them with REBs backup, but that usually doesn't work.
Goblins: very favourable. Every creature we play is better than theirs, and we have lots of burn to deal with the dangerous guys (like Lackey, Warchief and Piledriver). The game should be pretty straight-foward aggressive mode. Price of Progress suck, and is usually replaced by Pithing Needles, which can target Wasteland, Rishadan Port and AEther Vial.
Storm Combo: unfavourable. This deck can kill you really fast, but it usually needs life to combo. Be really aggressive and chump a lot of life can cause them to fizzle, but still, game 1 is as hard as it can be. Post-board Leylines + REBs help. Play REB aggressively on Brainstorms and Ponders, don't let them sculpt. Take out Path of Exile (obviously) and Sylvan Libraries/Grim Lavamancer.
It's a good thing you bring so much to the thread. I mean lists of 2/3's for 1 are so innovative that the format clearly can't deal with it. Also using Relic of Progenitus when you're playing Tarmogoyfs and Grim Lavamancers is a combo I'm sure people haven't considered at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
@ Capt4in
thank you for that in-depth analysis of the matchups. I do want to point out that the metagame is evolving into something midrangey/grindy-ish, with the BG package as flavour of the month. I do agree with you that Knight is a horrible card to play in the deck. Not just right now because its soft to DRS and decays, but also in general because its way too slow and does a lot less in zoo than it does in decks like maverick. Zoo's goal is to aggressively clock an opponent, with every creature presenting an immediate threat. Knight just doesn't cut it.
as for thalia, I think she hurts us quite a lot, and we should be looking elsewhere for combo hate. I tested it back when it first came out and it felt really frustrating when i had to cast POPs/Lightning Helixes for 3. Hell i'd even consider gaddock teeg over thalia if there was a gun to my head, at least he screws with stuff like green sun's zenith (maverick was big back then if i recall properly).
@ tension between Capt4in and Esper3k
I can understand where both of you are coming from. To Capt4in, I do agree its not constructive to bring up bad cards (yeah I admit, I agree that they are bad) into the discussion, but with no disrespect to Esper3k's experience with the deck, sometimes people are actually sincerely clueless about specific cards. A little bit of patience could go a long way. I'm also a longtime player of the lands deck and we have newbies bring up bad cards all the time...trust me. It doesn't help discussion, but these guys are really clueless so theyre not at fault either. Usually we explain to them and they're on their way.
To Esper3k, its not very nice of you to troll either (yes you were trolling, with the whole blue cards thing). I don't know Capt4in personally, but I've read his posts and they make sense. It is somewhat true that some of the cards you mentioned (legion loyalist for example), aren't going to help it. The sensible thing to do is to actually try it out first and report your findings. Anyone can throw out ideas but you gotta back that up with results to show for. Remember that we are playing legacy here, and this format is pretty unforgiving. I know some players who tried to make the jump from modern to legacy and their sense of card evaluation made me raise my eyebrows quite a bit. Perhaps you want to post a decklist of what you're currently sitting on and justify your card choices like the chap here (Vandalize) did? That way we could understand your train of thought better, as opposed to just saying X or Y looks good, maybe we can use it.
To sum up, we already have so few people trying to make this work, its pretty sad if even the few of us here can't get along...
@Vandalize
thank you for the findings. This is a good discussion point.
Just wanted to point out that a good RUG player knows how to hold back his counters for POP. Their wastelands could cause problems, so don't feel too ashamed to keep land heavy hands.
I'm not too sure about the jund matchup, I would actually label it as unfavourable. they can rip our hand, kill our creatures, and have inevitability through CA. Considering everyone and his mom seems to have jund at the moment, verifying this through more playtesting is critical. I'll follow-up on this over the weekend when I head down to the shop and report my findings.
@cards in gatecrash
On a side note, I feel like none of the cards in gatecrash make the cut for zoo. Its a shame because I had high hopes for gruul. perhaps a teeny bit too high. Even Kird ape doesn't always make the cut.
I did cast a second glance at loxodon smiter bac in RTR, but decided he's not good enough. Most of the time he's just going to be a smaller goyf.
bad cards in GTC (imo): skyknight legionaire, domri rade, skaarg guildmage, sunhome guildmage, truefire paladin, boros reckoner, burning tree emissary, experiment one, slaughterhorn, frontline medic (great in standard though).
Are you confusing me possibly with someone else? I've made no comment at all about blue cards...Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
I disagree with Capt4in's reasoning and of course, his attempt to come onto the thread having posted zero results of his own list and trying to denigrate the suggestions of others. As Vandalize pointed out, cards like Relic of Progenitus are tough for Zoo to play because you simply can't afford to shrink your 'Goyfs to 0/1's and eat your Lavamancer's food. An "experienced" Zoo player should know that.
What I'm saying is that Zoo has been a pretty dead deck for a long time in Legacy now. Putting up the same generic stock list and avoiding any discussion for anything new isn't going to push the deck forward at all.
Guys, guys. Simmer down. thefringthing's got the hot new tech fresh off WotC's presses.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6250&type=card
This thing is on-colour, makes your guy huge, and generates tempo by giving you that extra damage the same turn you cast it, unlike most of the creatures we could be running. This is a Lightning Bolt every turn for the rest of the game no matter what! That means it's better than Sulfuric Vortex, and hence maindeckable. Don't be surprised when Primal Zoo is making up six or seven of the top eight decks week in and week out on the SCG circuit in a few months. Accordingly, I expect Jace to drop to $10 or so.
@Vandalize: I like your list, and I admit that Lightning Helix is a bit of a personal weakness of mine. In Ontario, the Legacy community is less-developed, so most events will be roughly 70% old-school Legacy players (I regularly play against the guys who quite literally put the "Canadian" in "Canadian Threshold") and 30% newcomers playing decks like Burn and Affinity. Helix is my way of conceding the fact that a decent portion of the metagame is going to try to race me. I can't really fault any of your choices though.
@movingtonewao: Thanks for the reply. You're way more polite and constructive than I've learned to expect around here. I was going to abandon this thread for lost, but as long as there are at least a few reasonable contributors, I guess I'll stick around. I'll try to be more patient with people who propose bad ideas, but Esper is an example of a typical sort of internet poster who simply gets angry and doubles down on his bad ideas when told he's wrong.
I'm curious why you think Boros Charm isn't good enough. Did you talk about it a few pages back in the previous discussion? I was similarly disappointed with our Gruul options from Gatecrash, though there might be more in Dragon's Maze. Boros Charm, though, was the one card in the set I was excited about long before the spoilers even started, and it more than lived up to my expectations. I also think RW is a better mana cost than RG for a spell like this (so I'm happy it's Boros and not Gruul Charm that's good), since I typically fetch lands to produce as much Red and White mana as possible, with usually no more than a single green at a time, since I rarely play multiple green cards in a turn (barring a nut-draw that goes Nacatl > Nacatl + Nacatl), but often need to cast multiple removal/burn spells at a time.
I'd be interested in seeing your list. Is your current list posted somewhere in this thread or have you made any recent updates?
@esper3k: You're right in saying that Zoo isn't much of a deck right now. Cutting cards for worse cards is not the solution. If you want to propose a new archetype, that's what the other boards are for. We're here to talk about Wild Nacatl decks, which certainly don't want to be playing cards like Legion Loyalist (who I do think is worthy of consideration for a swarm deck like Goblins, but not a deck like Zoo). Please get some experience with the deck before jumping in and claiming every other aggressive card you see is playable. If you think a card is good and everyone else in the thread is dismissing it, maybe try testing it or playing it (successfully) in an event and get back to us with your results. Just claiming that a card looks good without explaining why it's better than the card it's replacing is worthless. Claiming that Zoo isn't a deck is not a very good justification for randomly changing cards. Belcher's not really a deck either, but you don't see people running to that thread telling them to change it up and run Battle Hymn. You need to justify every card that you add with a card that you plan on removing, and why you think that card needs to be removed. See Vandalize/Me/Mary for a good example of a stock list.
Also, I'm not saying that the stock list is perfect. It's not. It's at a bad place in the metagame right now, and could use some help, and I think there is certainly room to experiment. I thought the discussion of Hidden Herd on the last page was fairly interesting, and I picked up a few last weekend to test out. I'm not sure I like it more than Loam Lion, as it seems to lose value extremely quickly after turn 1, with a relatively small upside. That's a discussion I'd be interested in engaging in, though. There is certainly room to grow with Zoo, but you clearly have no idea of how the deck plays out and what it looks for in a card.
As for the Relic of Progenitus thing, I play 1 Relic because I regularly run into Lands and Aggro Loam players in Legacy events in my area, and Grafdigger's Cage doesn't offer a decent solution to Life from the Loam. I've played stuff like Tormod's Crypt in that slot before, but I find those matchups are more often won with burn spells than beats on the ground, so shrinking my 'Goyfs is less important than drawing an extra card. Mary Jacobson and I have discussed the choice of graveyard hate before, with her preference being Relic as well. See her list here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...tl12/welcome#9 . Maybe you should tell her about the Relic/Tarmogoyf interaction? I'm sure she didn't notice it on her way to top 16 of the GP.
That said, I don't really think I need to be defending my card choices from someone who thinks Legion Loyalist is playable.
As for me "attempting to come into the thread" to denigrate your bad card choices, until you replied to me yesterday, you hadn't posted here since March of 2011. It's not like you're a regular contributor either. I'm guessing you just showed up to troll me by posting the exact sort of bad card choices I complained about. If so, troll successful. You can go now.
Edit: Esper3k take note. At least thefringthing is funny. :P
Ah, so the guy who's espousing playing the same lists that haven't done well in well, years, is not the guy who's doubling down on bad ideas?
I'm certain because one list did pretty well in a GP means that the entire list is awesome and can't be improved upon, right?
If she wants to post on here about Relic, I have no problems making the same arguments against it to her.
Please refresh my memory, but please direct me to the multitude of Zoo lists, fast, standard, or big that have been making such a big impact on the format that you feel your stock list is good enough?
Also while you're at it, please show us the results in large tournaments you've put up with your stock list to show us all how experienced you are.
========================================================
Given the current trend of decks right now to go towards the midrange (Jund being popular now, the grindy BUG decks, Esper Stoneblade as well), there are a lot of options Zoo can go.
I actually think either going faster in a sligh type build (now we have access to Boros Charm on top of PoP) is fine. Steppe Lynx, while of course a terrible topdeck, is probably the strongest way for a fast Zoo build to abuse Boros Charm's double strike. I personally don't like Steppe Lynx myself, but I can see a fast Zoo build heavy with burn, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Goblin Guide, Steppe Lynx as being fairly nasty.
My personal preference is to go the other direction and go with a Big Zoo build. Imo, Punishing Fires is very well positioned in the format right now due to the prevalence of X/2 creatures we're seeing all over the place (Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Dark Confidant, BBE, Shardless Agent, SFM). Of course, PF is also great at breaking Tarmogoyf stalemates (although Big Zoo generally doesn't have that problem since it has Hierarchs and Pridemages). With KoTR + Sylvan Library, you also typically won't have a problem getting your two pieces together.
Another plus to playing Big Zoo is that it also traditionally beats the stock and fast Zoo lists. Historically speaking, Zoo mirrors have been won by players going bigger.
In the day of the Delver, the time of Kird Apes and Loam Lions is simply over.
Dude, you should totally add Armadillo Cloak. Lifelink and Trample too! Plus, really - it's an Armadillo Cloak!Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
Esper, I'm done arguing with you. You're wrong. I promise. Go troll somewhere else.
If this is how you feel, then maybe you should stop posting in the Zoo thread. Zoo is an aggressive deck characterized by its 2 and 3-power one-drops backed up with burn spells. If you want to suggest a new archetype playing different cards, that's what the developing decks board is for. Kindly leave this thread if you have nothing constructive to say about the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
If you want to talk about big zoo, kindly go talk about it in the big zoo thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...aya-Horizons-*
That's fine, it's not like anything you posted was advancing the deck anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
Zoo has not always been only 1 drops - lists in the past running Knight of the Reliquary have done fine as well. Zoo lists also commonly play non-creature non-burn spells in the form of other powerful cards such as Sylvan Library or Umezawa's Jitte. Even on the 1 drop end, Steppe Lynxes and Goblin Guides have also seen play in successful Zoo lists of the past.Quote:
If this is how you feel, then maybe you should stop posting in the Zoo thread. Zoo is an aggressive deck characterized by its 2 and 3-power one-drops backed up with burn spells. If you want to suggest a new archetype playing different cards, that's what the developing decks board is for. Kindly leave this thread if you have nothing constructive to say about the deck.
Zoo is an archetype that can be so much more flexible and powerful than your narrow vision of it.
=============================================================
@Those of you guys experimenting with Hidden Herd: Have you tried Hidden Gibbons instead? That's the more traditionally played of the "Hidden" cards (as far as any of them are really played) and that 4/4 body is significantly better than the 3/3 you get from Herd. While Herd will likely activate more consistently on T1, Gibbons is a better mid-late game draw as well as still being great on T1 (let's see your opponent try and deal with any of your guys without casting an instant).
Sorry esper3k this was arsenal posting not you, my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I'm at college sitting through a shitty lecture now, c4ptain il get back to you on why I think boros charm is bad and post a list later. As for esper3k's suggestion of hidden gibbons, it gives me a moment of pause. It could be good in the right meta and warrants testing. Hidden herd has been underwhelming for me if preliminary testing is anything to go by.
Will post again when it's more convenient.
I'm sorry about answering so late. I haven't been on here for a while. The Hidden Herd is a Nacatl on T1 but is a card sitting on the table doing nothing at T3 and on. That's why I decided to replace all of them with Hidden Gibbons for testing purposes(I test on Cockatrice and in my local shop). I played against numerous Decks with it and all I can say is that it's fantastic against RUG Thresh and only goes 4/4 against Combo in the turn they combo out. In my opinion, every deck playing Lightning Bolt(which probably is every deck playing red) hates gibbons since removing a Nacatl to get your opponent a 4/4 doesn't seem like a good choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by groupcelebration
Wrath is absolutely wrong in this deck. You never want to see it except for finishing your opponent. I decided to replace it with Chain Lightning and Helix as you said, and the deck is so mich more consistent now.
The CA and quality i get through Brainstorm is amazing and everyone and their mom plays Delver now and it is amazing for a deck like Zoo(especially Explosive Zoo variants).
Other changes I made: I removed the Steam Vents for hallowed fountain and bought 2 Scalding Tarns to get some more colorfix and cut a Guide for a Sylvan Library. I considered Spell Pierce, RIP, Crypt, Relic, Shushers, Gaddocks and Blasts for the SB.
Since the Tier 1 Decks atm are Miracle, Jund, Mav, Esper etc etc. I won't test the deck at my next local tournament but I'm looking forward to it. I'll probably test it when the Meta shifts to slower decks that don't have the need to run Wastelands.
In b4 shitty idea: I wanted to TEST something new and am currently pretty happy with it(It's pretty good at my local meta)
@ Capt4in,Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
I do like your list, and found your points of discussion as far as the metagame and matchups to be awesome, but can you enlighten me as to why you say that knight is garbage? If you do a search on any deck database site it seems that most if not all of the zoo lists that have done well at big tournaments lately have been running her. Yes, she has gotten worse with the rise of DRS, but I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that she is unplayable.
Edit: Also, can't we all just be cool like Fonzy and discuss cool Zoo stuff without dissing each other? I'm not blaming anybody, and as someone said before we zoo players are too far and few between to divide ourselves.
My issue with the Hidden cards is as always, your opponent gets to choose when they activate. That being said, I think Gibbons is the most playable because of it's big body combined with the triggering condition typically being applicable during all points of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin
If you can get blue Zoo to work with Delver, more power too you. I feel the deck needs 1-2 more serious 1-drop beaters (so we can finally get rid of Kird Ape / Loam Lion) to be a serious threat again. Delver is the best 1-drop creature available in Legacy right now, but that blue requirement is so rough on the manabase!
The thing about blue zoo is I feel like it will always be a weaker version of RUG Delver. To reliably flip delver you need lots of instants/sorceries, to do that may as well use nimble instead of nacatl, and then we are just playing rug delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Contemporary Zoo operates like Type 1 Sligh did a dozen years ago. You're looking to maximize your early damage and then finish the game out with burn. Early, that burn can be used as removal to get your creatures through, but as the game progresses, your 1 drops will quickly be outclassed. Therefore, it's paramount that you squeeze as much damage out of your 1 drops as possible before the game hits a state where they're held back by Tarmogoyfs/KotRs/Tombstalkers or where you're simply blitzed by Tendrils of Agony/Griselbrand/Emrakul.
Why is Hidden Herd good and Hidden Gibbons is not, when traditionally it was the other way around? Well, in the past, counter-heavy control decks with very few win conditions and/or blockers were the norm. They represented a large portion of the field and Hidden Gibbons was very good against these decks, coming in before the counter wall came up and punishing your control opponent for using their card draw or counterspells. Now, however, Zoo is not a midrange deck. Midrange decks need to have disruption to survive in the current environment and Naya colors are poorly suited to disruption. Hidden Herd represents another Wild Nacatl. Is it dead after turn 5? Almost always. But if the game has hit turn 5 and you're relying on 1 drop critters to get there, you're already screwed. Something like Steppe Lynx isn't going to serve you any better at that point.
The most difficult Zoo hands for opponents to deal with are the triple Nacatl openings. However, because you're only running 4 Wild Nacatls, those hands are rare. Still, historically, triple Nacatl openings are as close to a "nut draw" as Zoo is going to get. Doubling your available 1 mana 3/3's is huge. The difference between a 3 power creature and a 2 power creature is only slightly smaller than the difference between a 2 power creature and a 1 power creature. That is to say, the difference is enormous.
The Zoo I've been running incorporates blue to really push the 3 power 1 drop theme to the max. It also doesn't hurt to have Brainstorm and Ponder to dig for burn in the mid-game to close things out.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
I've been playing this list (or a very close approximation of, depending on what month we're talking about) since September. It's very good and definitely competitive in the current Legacy format. It stomps a mudhole in the slower midrange-y decks and with a little help from the sideboard (hello, Spell Pierce!), your storm matchup is roughly even, a claim Zoo can't normally make. Show and Tell is still rough, but you can't beat everything.
The point of Hidden Herd is that your opponent doesn't actually have a choice. You play turn 1 Hidden Herd, what are they going to do? Not play a land their first turn? People play very few basics these days, generally being content with being able to fetch for them in order to blank Wasteland. But while fetches will get around Wasteland, playing a fetch will still trigger Herd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Gibbons does have a large body, and if it were as consistent as Herd, that would be a huge advantage. However, as you point out, it's relatively painless for an opponent to just not trigger the Gibbons for a few turns. So many of the relevant cards in the format are sorceries, cards like Ponder, Show and Tell, Hymn to Tourach, etc. If Gibbons were instants and sorceries, then it might be a worthwhile switch. As it stands, however, Hidden Herd is consistent damage. The fact that Gibbons is more relevant in the late game is actually irrelevant (irrelevant relevance, I like it). In the late game, your entire deck is irrelevant. Who are you playing against where you're planning on going late? You either win early or you lose. Topdecking Hidden Herd on turn 6 is only slightly worse than topdecking Turd Ape, but Hidden Herd in your opening has a far greater value. Based on the style of the deck, there's not even really a question about it.
Even if you don't want to delve into blue for another 1 drop, you should be running Hidden Herd over Ape or Lion.
I do agree Herd is more consistent than Gibbons, but the argument for Gibbons is that if you drop it early, they're going to have to trigger it to deal with your (presumably) other attackers you'll be dropping. If they're avoiding playing instants to keep from triggering Gibbons, then that means that your guys will generally still be staying alive and so you should be ok with that situation anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
That being said... has anyone considered playing both?
Change or die, or just wait for the meta to come back around to suit your deck I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
Personally I agree that Big Zoo with P. Fires looks a lot more promising in this meta. Having access to much larger threats, GSZ, and a recurring damage engine means your day doesn't just end if Batterskull or Terminus hits the table. More mana also means you have access to things like Elspeth, Thrun, and Scooze. You still play a much higher threat count than Maverick, so Abrupt Decay on a Knight or Goyf isn't the end of the day. It also gives you a much more reasonable mid-game plan than turning into a burn deck with really terrible topdecks.
Really, if you're thinking of it as "(in most cases) a better burn deck than burn", why run Kird Ape over Goblin Guide?
Hm, your list is pretty sweet; and it appears you've found a way to support flipping delver at least most of the time. I would love to see what a current sideboard would look like for that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
Hidden Herd also grows Tarmogoyf if answered. I think I'm in love. I'll definetely replace Loam Lion with it.
List:
Lands [19]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures [23]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells [18]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Boros Charm
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
19 instants and sorceries isn't terrible for blind-flipping and when 6 of them dig, it makes it appreciably easier. Generally, unless the mana is somehow wonky (and that's rare with 21 lands and 0 Wastes), I go Hidden Herd --> Wild Nacatl --> Delver of Secrets for my play order. Herd obviously decreases in value rapidly, Nacatl is only slightly worse than Herd on turn 1 and Delver on turn 1 means you need an upkeep Brainstorm to reliably get 3 on turn 2 and that means best case, you're only dropping 1 more 1 drop on turn 2, which slows your clock. Sometimes, that's all you've got anyway, but I'd rather drop one of the other two and give myself a chance to rip a 3rd 1 drop; the flying isn't really relevant on turn 2 anyway as the most common blocker on turn 2 is DRS and people don't want to block with those.
In Denver, it was:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Rest in Peace
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stony Silence
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Of course, I had a miserable outing in Denver too, going 3-4 drop, but them's the breaks. I was expecting more Storm than Show and Tell and lost to a pair of Sneak and Shows, LED Dredge and a BUG deck (which is pretty rare) The side event on Sunday wasn't particularly great either, going 4-3, but in all fairness, there were 5 rounds vs. combo and only 2 vs. fair decks (BUG and Zombardment), both of which I stomped. Vortex was there for Stoneblade and Miracles, since they don't present an appreciable clock and it stops Batterskull shenanigans. I never saw a single Counterbalance the entire weekend, making K. Grip pretty terrible, but I don't think you can afford to cut it as CounterTop just locks you out cold. Anything not running Wasteland, I generally board out one of the Taigas. If I'm feeling really ballsy, I'll board out the 2nd Trop as well. 21 lands is a bit heavy for a deck with a curve that stops at 2, but since Stifle has been making a comeback and Wastelands are everywhere in the tempo decks (who will beat you if they can lock your mana out for a few turns and get 'goyfs on the board), it's safer for a G1 configuration.
Esper: I tried Gibbons very briefly last summer when I first designed the deck. Maybe things have changed a bit but at the time, it was where Vexing Devil is in Standard. When it would be useful as a 4 power creature, they'll sit a turn or two, which sets them back slightly, but most decks in this format can handle creatures by turn 3 or 4, so it sets you back immensely. Either they're killing you at that point, they've set up a juicy Terminus, they've got Energy Field, they're dropping Batterskull or some other such nonsense. I plan that by turn 3, I'm going to be on the "throw lightning at your face" plan. Unless I'm playing against combo, I play this deck as an all-in deck. Jam as much damage as I can as fast as I can. Against combo, obviously, it's helpful to leave REB/Pierce mana up after turn 2 (or turn 1 on the draw, but being on the draw vs. combo sucks!). Sometimes, I'll get mashed by the turn 2 SnT Emra, but just as often, they actually have to dig for it and leaving mana up early sets your clock back appreciably. If you've got 6 on the battlefield on turn 2, you're looking at a 5 turn clock (3 on 2, 9 on 3, 15 on 4 and 21 on 5); 9 on the field on turn 2 is a 4 turn clock (3/12/21). That's also why I don't run any 2 power creatures. Dropping 3 Kird Apes by turn 2 is the same as dropping 2 "Nacatls" and that full turn difference in speed is huge. Against Goblins, for example, if you can keep them on the back foot the entire time and blocking so they don't die, you'll win the game. Goblins are terrible on the defensive. On the other hand, if they can switch roles, you can't defend against their massive card advantage and finishers. A hand of 2 lands and 5 burn spells will buy you time, but eventually, if you don't have the creatures to put the pressure on, they'll refill with Ringleaders, drop an unanswered Krenko or SGC and maul you to death.