Quote:
Originally Posted by MBSegal
If you donīt value the bob you should play the deck more. I cannot tell how often bob single handedly won me games.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBSegal
If you donīt value the bob you should play the deck more. I cannot tell how often bob single handedly won me games.
I've win too many games off of Bob. It's too strong to cut
He's 75 bux because he's super collectable. :rolleyes:
Honestly, I'm not sure why I don't see top and Spirit of the Labyrinth in these lists...any chance I can get a solid reason why?
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I'll third that motion :)
Bob has won me soooo many games and has only killed me a handful of times. Mystic is awesome but Overall Bob is better. Against Fair decks, they are both great. Against Combo, Bob is much better. I think the only thing that kinda sucks is that I only play multiple Bobs if I'm playing against Combo. You can play as many Mystics, Deathrites etc. as you really feel like onto the battlefield. You usually can't with Dark Confidant.
As far as number of Mystic goes. I only run 3. I used to run 4 but since our deck usually doesn't win fast, I've had times where Mystic really was a Squire. Boo-urns. IMHO, I think 4 is fine if you also run Sensei's Divining Top. In other words, so you can purposely not draw your equipment.
Any thoughts on the 2 new white hate bears? i'm not sure Eidolon is better than Canonist. 1 more mana is a big deal. Storm may have killed you by then. Being Bolt proof is nice, but trying to figure out situations where it's better.
VS. Elves. Abrupt Decay is sideboard removal of choice. Eidolon and Canonist are both Kaput.
vs. Storm. Both die to Decay. Eidolon does survive the Massacre though.
vs Hypergenesis. I know, fringe deck. lol. Dismember kills both. Ingot Chewer kills only Canonist. Also of note, Shardless Agent gets around Canonist but not Eidolon.
vs High Tide. Snap hits both equally.
Some situations, Eidolon would live where Canonist would not but is it worth it being a turn slower?
The new True Believer is alright but again, probably won't run it.
I like my hatebear sideboard package the way it is. Thalia is still overall the best Hate bear IMO.
Well for me, I can't find the space to run it. I like my deck the way it is. Secondly, in terms of hate bears I already run (in board) 2 thalia, 2 Phyrexian Revoker and 1 Gaddock Teeg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Spirit is alright but can't find the room for it and I've already have a lot of x/1 guys, that's just asking to be stomped by a Zealous Persecution or Golgari Charm.
In terms of abilities I feel that...
Thalia affects way more things than Spirit does and in conjunction with wasteland and Vindicate can be backbreaking.
Revoker is good vs a lot of decks since most have something I can name....and yes that includes mana abilities of say Lion's Eye Diamond or Metalworker.
Gaddock Teeg can shut down win cons.
Spirit can do a lot of sick things too, making Griselbrand more managable. Shutting down cantrips. But not enough to warrant taking over a spot.
Top can be played for sure. I don't but some lists I've seen have 1 or 2.
I will be testing a 1 of Spirit of the Labyrinth over the 3rd Thalia in my board this week. Just for funsies. I could see the new True Believer being solid because I can ETutor him up and he is only a single white, but I'm not really sure. The 3 mana ECanonist just seems... Bad.
Tested spirit in both, a vial version of dga and a "normal" version. Had some funny times in the vial build if you ruin someoneīs day with it. But in both cases I found him to be too situational to be in the main deck and too easy to answer as a solid sideboard choice. In my sideboard, I want that unfair hate. Not a fair reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Regarding Top... Iīd play top if I managed to squeeze it in somewhere :/ I just had too many games it stalled and then still make me lose then games it turned the tables :/ But itīs good nevertheless. Synergy with bob is amazing.
Gah. Yeah I couldn't figure out what I would want to cut for top. Like if I am top decking, I am probably already behind anyway, so I figure the games where top may dig me out, it wont help anyway. I was thinking of splashing green a bit more for Sylvan Library, but meh. Not worth the splash. There's always Dark Tutelage ;)
I'm pretty sure that is way worse. I'm playing B/W in modern and I still wouldn't play tutelage.
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Could always go the Gatekeeper of Malakir, Phyrexian Arena, Erebos route!
Someone locally was doing that... lol. Was that you? I think Segal was on like a 1 of Erebos at one point too. Either him or Parente.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrio
I really wanna play gatekeeper... Maybe I'll change up my mana base tonight and try him out
He's so good, having an edict that can't be Spell Pierce'd is the actual nut. He also makes Cabal Therapy a little more appealing since he's fucking useless after he kicks it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Yeah. I cashed both locals I played in with that deck :). Played 2 or 3 Erebos and a few Bitterblossoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
And about Dark Confidant, never said cut him. I think I could see myself going down to 3 or 2.
Well ran poorly tonight for the first time. I played pretty poorly. No excuses. I do think my deck is a little too far tuned to beat un fair decks. Makes it difficult to grind out vs the other BGx decks. May throw either the revokers or scullers to the board. Maybe I'll make room for a couple gate keepers
Been playing so much Pack Rat in standard that I have implement it into my Deadguy as well. Its yet an other 2 dropp that is a must kill target or it will win the game. Also turns topdecks into rats, flooded lands into rats and the bad lategame draws of discard spells into rats.
How has it been in testing?
Went 3-0-1 Drew in the last round so we could go home. Didn't make any changes like I said I was going to. Played against 2 of the decks I lost to on Wednesday and crushed. Also somehow beat Elves. The Match up isn't as terrible when they dont draw the nuts apparently because in testing games before the tourney I was getting smashed. There were however a few times I wanted a stillmoon cavalier... May find room for 1 somewhere. Only change I think I will be making for now is a Pithing Needle over the Revoker in the board. Stage Depths is just such a miserable MU. Also I played an Isolated Chapel over Caves of Koilos. It was way better, so I'll eat crow on that one.
Looks like Wilkin got 13th at SCG DET, awesome!
Nice! I still can't wrap my head around your list because of the numbers/choices of cards, but it seems to work!
Lol, I assume you mean me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Yep Got 13th at Starcity Detroit. Believe me, most of my friends think my card choices and numbers are weird as heck but I do fine with it. I'll probably post a report later, just got home. I did live the dream again, I played against Show and Tell and I killed Emrakul with Shriekmaw. And against Young Pyromancer/Delver deck I had 8 Lingering Soul tokens out game 1. Against Esperblade I cast Bob turn 2.....and never took damage from him. 6 or 7 lands in a row.
Who gives a damn about that? The ONLY question on anyone's mind (or it better be)... how many people did you kill with Hero of Bladehold?
Funny enough, it was exactly the question I was about to ask myself lolQuote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Ans congrats Wilkin!!!
Hero is nothing short of ridiculous. I have personally have felt the fury of Wilkins Hero of Bladehold.
can't be bolted, can't be abrupted, if you get a swing in, it can't be edicted, 2 turn clock
Swings for 7 on the first attack, swings for 11 the second attack
I unfortunately never got to kill anyone with Hero. She did kind of help me win Game 1 vs Lands. I managed to beat Lands game 1 and he had 2 Punishing Fires and the Grove. I just had too many guys for him to kill. He had to use all of his resources to kill my Hero otherwise it was lethal because I had a Batterskull and Mystic out. I was very sad since I only saw one Punishing Fire at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
I have to say the 2 chrome mox are a sick touch that I have never seen before. Grats on your finish!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
The Chrome Mox go back to the Mental Misstep days. I believe Caleb Durward was one of the people behind it. And I've liked it ever since. Turn 1 Hymn, Bob, Mystic or Thalia feels so awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I like the Chrome Moxen, especially in a build like yours where you have a few bigger things to cast.
Edit: looking back at your list, what is the 2x EE in the SB for? Just curious because running a deck full of permanents with EE seems odd to me.
Engineered Explosives is a versatile card......Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
A sweeper Against say Elves.
Can deal with counterbalance. I usually set it at 3 or 4 with sunburst 2 obviously. lol.
Kills Flipped Delver at 2 mana.
Has potential to 2 for 1 opponent. Elves, Death and Taxes, multiple Mongoose.
I've even killed True-Name Nemesis a few times with it.
Deadguy is a deck that tries to get incremental card advantage by 2 for 1 your opponent. Engineered Explosives can do that. Sure I've killed my stuff with EE but it's usually worth it.
Thats a fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Your list and Phazonmutants post about hymn to tourach in the Team America thread has me thinking of redesigning my list. I'll have to figure it out, but Hymn seems so strong. I'm just worried about being loaded at 2 drops...
Damn that singleton Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Went 3-0-1 tonight. Switched my list up a bit to something closer to Wilkins.
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Revoker
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
1 Shriekmaw
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Bayou
SB I only changed Revoker to Needle from my old SB because Marit Lage.
As you can see I have adopted Hymns. I wanted to hedge further for fair match ups because of my meta and I feel like Hymn is just such a good card. Dropped the Tidehollows because they were underachievers as many people have already come to the conclusion. Also adopted the second Isolated chapel over the Karakas to make the mana a bit better since I added a few double black spells.
R1 Miracles
G1 I fall behind on board and jace begins fatesealing and I scoop after a few turns. G2 I grind him out with lots of lingering souls and SoFaI and many needle effects and overload his answers. G3 I cast Thoughtseize, he flusterstorms. I cast Revoker to bait, he Counterspells, I cast Stoneforge, the he goes double fetch, tap 3 Islands and a plain for Jace, bounce Stoneforge, then I cast Choke. And winning from that point is fairly easy.
R2 Mono White Weenie Hatebears
G1 he gets a few bears down, but I cast Stillmoon Cavalier. He can't actually beat the card. G2 he overruns me and I dont have enough removal. G3 he mulls to 5, I get active jitte vs the deck full of X-2's and X1's and it is over. In this game I simply brought in 2x Zealous and the non thalia hate bears out of my board just so I could try to clog up the board and trade with his men to out attrition him.
R3 RUG Delver
We ID into top 8, but play for fun. G1 He only draws a delver and a ton of counters, but I draw infinite removal. G2 he has triple mongoose and I cant deal with them all. G3 I misplay, but Shriekmaw was really sweet, unfortunately I leave around his sulfur elemental and cast Stillmoon into it. I had RIP, but he drew his non GY dependant creatures and I die.
T8 Imperial Painter
G1 I TS him a bit (fetched basics) and get down BSkull and revoker on Grindstone. He misplays and Recruits for a Painter with REB in hand and doesnt cast it with REB open, I draw hymn and thats all she wrote. G2 he blood moons me on T2 and I dont ever have a white source to get any real beef with SFM and I die to his numerous 1/1's. G3 He has an awkward hand, but Recruits for a Magus of the Moon, I put in a SoFaI in response off of SFM, and equip and shoot his blood moon man and just ride SoFaI to victory.
Painter a good player who knew the deck better would have beaten me. Seems like a rough MU honestly. I liked the changes. I haven't played a deck as powerful as this before and it honestly feels amazing.
Bother posting your SB? Or is it just the same as in your last post with the change to Needle?
2 Zealous PersecutionQuote:
Originally Posted by Valech
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Perish
2 Disenchant
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
Think its quite safe to say that Gatekeeper of Malakir is back into the deck.
So here's a list I'm daydreaming about, and some sideboarding questions:
1. Do you board STP out against Show and Tell? It's dead against Emrakul, and if GB is in play they've presumably drawn 7 cards, so it seems better to focus on blocking their combo earlier. Thoughts?
2. I'm not married to the Extirpate in the board, and could see replacing it with Rest In Peace to maximize E.Tutor usage, but RiP makes my Deathrites a lot shittier. Worth it though? Jotun Grunt is also a consideration.
3. This feels dicey against like fast Storm Combo even post-board (and also Leyline of Sanctity) but I'm not sure what to change. I can hear the argument for Hymn but I think the targeted discard better informs how I tutor. Ideas? I have big crushes on Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor but don't have my mind made up...
4 deathrite
4 stoneforge
4 bob
3 lingering souls
1 enlightened tutor
1 spirit of the lab
1 phyrexian revoker
1 sword of feast & famine
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 sensei's divining top
1 oblivion ring
1 vindicate
1 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares
3 inquisition
2 thoughtseize
4 liliana
1 savannah
1 bayou
4 scrubland
1 isolated chapel
4 marsh flats
1 windswept Heath
3 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
1 plains
2 swamp
Sb
1 zealous persecution
1 path to exile
1 abrupt decay
1 oblivion ring
1 krosan grip
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle
1 manriki gusari
1 choke
1 engineered plague
1 ethersworn canonist
1 enlightened tutor
1 meekstone
How has the bug delver matchup gone for those who have played it? How about Miracles? I am really struggling vs. bug and I find myself wishing for Abrupt Decay, and I imagine the same would be true for Miracles.
I think we are very good against:
RUG/UWR delver
Elves
Storm combo
D&T
Which are all popular decks, but not dominating like those two. I would say its about 50/50 vs Deathblade and Jund. Show and Tell really depends on who draws what.
Maybe someone who has placed high on the SCG circuit and can talk about how common those decks are can chime in?
I think I'm going to cut the 2 therapies from my list and go for a 3rd thoughtseize and something else. Maybe a shriekmaw and hope I don't flip it to Bob too often. It kills delver, Goyf, sfm, emrakul. Doesn't help vs. miracles though.
Any deck with "Delver" in its title is typically in your favor. Against Miracles, it depends on how much discard you draw and if you can dodge Entreat the Angels.
You are correct that D&T is easy. But thinking Storm or Elves is a favorable match up is incorrect. Not saying they are unfavorable, but favorable is probably a bit excessive.
Jund can be rough. Deathblade and Stoneblade are pretty good in my experience. As for Sneak and Show, g2 and g3 you have strong sideboard cards, and like all match ups you can sometimes just discard their hand and beat them down with some knuckleheads. Shriekmaw is fine, I just don't like it because it is a deadcard in a lot of match ups with low versatility. Also, against the decks it is good against, you rarely are getting 5 mana. Wouldn't fault anybody for playing it, just I do not like diluting legacy decks with cute cards w/o brainstorm and I already play 2 Persecutions which is probably more than enough cute cards.
EDIT: Rather than just making blanket statements, maybe I should give some pointers on these match ups. Against Delver, never play into Daze or Spell Pierce with your removal spells. It just is not worth it for the most part. It is fine for a discard spell to absorb the counterspell since about 1/2 of the time you just nab their counterspells anyway. Liliana is probably the marquee card in these matchups for your deck, so don't just jam it into an open blue. Against Miracles, always get SoFaI with Batterskull. Don't over extend. You aren't going to beat an Entreat for more than 2, so just play as if it doesn't exist. Vindicating their lands is not that great since you can't beat a Jace or Counterbalance. They have very few 3 drops. Against Elves, you basically have to kill every protection creature or else your best card (Jitte) does nothing. Be aggressive because they have like 8 cards you simply can't beat. Jund is rough because Bloodbraid + Tarmogoyf vs Stoneforge is slightly unfair. They also have bolt so your Bobs will kill you a lot of times whereas your STPs give them life. Sneak and Show, play a few Humilities in the sideboard and it is really easy. A competent Sneak and Show player will expect Liliana so you probably won't ever get to pick off a fatty, so Revoker on Sneak Attack is usually good enough in conjunction with a Liliana. Some other cool strategies with the deck: Against Merfolk only fetch non basics and make sure to fetch the 1 Bayou. In g2 never fetch non basics and DO NOT get the Bayou. They will likely sideboard in back to basics and submerge. Against RUG Delver you can do the Bayou trick as well. Against Storm and other decks with Massacre, don't get your Scrubland or Plains if possible in game 2 or 3. It isn't worth giving them a 0 mana Wrath of God. Against Miracles, Sneak and Show and Jund, you can often times do the same trick with Back to basics but for Blood Moon. Those decks actually have worse mana than we do, but they will bring in Blood Moon. This deck is essentially a Legacy Event deck. It is really basic and to the point. It isn't that powerful, but consistently does what the cards in the deck are meant to do, which means there is a ton of play to it.
Miracles I feel is decent depending on your build. Lingering Souls is pretty damn good vs them. I'm 2-0 with my build vs miracles, and the only games that I feel aren't great are if they have active top early. Then again I also play Choke in my SB which I dont think is too common. That card straight up wins games. Wouldn't leave home without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
BUG Delver (TA) I haven't played vs, but I could see it being a bit difficult since they actually have answers to our equipment in decay. Also, I'm not a fan of the Elves MU, but I agree it isn't completely one sided in either decks favor.
Edit: after reading Segals post, I tend to agree on the Elves/Storm MU. I actually don't hate the storm MU. I like if I am getting to T2 I'm fine. They just can't have the nuts. Only way to fix that would be Leylines or MB Trap, which those cards both suck ass, and I would only play in a meta where it is 50+% fast combo.
I find Elves to be a very good matchup. Game 1 isn't great but I throw in 2 Explosives, 2 Revokers, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Humility and a Zealous Persecution in games 2 and 3. Haven't lost to Elves in quite a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Storm is ok. Not a great matchup but not one I fear.
Bug Delver can be a tough matchup, especially if they are packing Disfigures and Golgari Charms in board. If your meta is full of this, hmmm....Mirran Crusader could be good here. I find if I'm able to land a Hero of Bladehold, my chances are really good to win.
Show and Tell, depends on which one. I'm favoured against Sneak/show. It's a bit rough against Omnitell, haven't lost to it in the last 3 times I've played against it though. But it's annoying as they have Leyline of Sanctity, my show and tell hate doesn't hit it and wasteland doesn't really do too much. It isn't too popular fortunately so I don't see it too often.
Hate playing against Miracles. I have 5 hate bears and surgical extractions in board (to "Counter" the miracle trigger). I find not flashbacking Lingering Souls so soon helps mitigate the Terminus effect. Elspeth, Knight-Errant would be good in this matchup. Terminus doesn't do too much, Counterbalance can hit it but it's not easy. They either Force it (or counterspell) or Detention Sphere it.
Your build is a bit better than mine vs Elves. I bring in 2 Persecution, 1 ETutor, an EPlague, and random hate bears to slow them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
BUG Delver like I said, I've never played it, but if there is a delver MU that we struggle in, it is this one I'm sure.
Miracles I feel like if you dont get entreated, then you just play a slow grindy game and don't overextend and you should be fine.