[Deck] The Rock

Played some awesome games last night, and lost to random nut draws from Bant Stoneblade and Punishing Fires Maverick. Ooze is so good against us, unfortunately.

This is what I played:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah

2 Birds of Paradise
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Top
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Path to Exile

BOARD:

1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
2 Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog

Round 1: Chad with Grixis Tempo

I take the match in 2, easily crushing him with 9 pieces of removal postboard and Knight of the Reliquary. Bolt just doesn't get there.

Round 2: Nixon with Bant Stoneblade

A very close game 1 that I lose, he ends up having 4 Knights, and I don't have enough removal for it.

In Game 2, he opens an insane hand against discard, but I run out Birds, Knight, Qasali + Ooze, etc. He dies.

Game 3, I mis-GSZ for an Ooze, but then I get Wastelanded out of Green. Then, I die to his hardcast Batterskull and Jace. I should have gone for Qasali instead, since my Goyf was too small. Shit.

Round 3: Brandon with RUG Tempo

Game 1, I trounce him with discard, Knight, etc. I don't play into the tempo game.

Game 2, he has everything. Multiple Daze, Stifles, Wastelands, Loam, etc. Boo.

Game 3, I see 5 pieces of 1 CMC removal, and discard, Knight, etc. I get there.

Round 4: Ed with Punishing Maverick

I lose Game 1; I get really behind from multiple Wastes off an active Knight and lose.

Game 2, He has the epic hand of double Fire, Grove, Noble, Mom, etc. I take Mom with IOK, but then he blows out my Birds + Condfidant, and gets me off green. Shitty, since I had Ooze that could easily get too big to Fires. I Bog away both of his Fires, but then he drops Ooze and pumps it immediately, and I don't have the removal, and I'm off colour. FML.

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All in all, a good day, but Maverick isn't the easiest matchup. I think I'll have to put another Deed in the board, or possibly Perish. Ruin didn't hit Ooze. Boo.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Played some awesome games last night, and lost to random nut draws from Bant Stoneblade and Punishing Fires Maverick. Ooze is so good against us, unfortunately.

-Matt

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Cuz it makes your knights small or what?

No, because the fact that it's an Ooze just grosses me out. Ew. /sarcasm

But yeah, nerfing out Knights and Goyfs sucks. I hate Ooze.

-Matt

Scavenging ooze is so good in legacy it's not funny. That card deserves the price tag it holds; I could see it going up in price because it's just so good in legacy and once it catches on completely could see tarmogoyf price levels potentially I think.

But yeah ooze is quite good against goyfs and knights since it munches up your GY quickly and just grows. Doesn't help that it also gains them one life for each creature it removes to help the damage race. Whenever you see an ooze land against you, you have to immediately kill that guy because he will wreck you.

That card is just an asshole. Literally.

If there were no GSZ, no problem. But seriously, what the fuck.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

No, because the fact that it's an Ooze just grosses me out. Ew. /sarcasm

But yeah, nerfing out Knights and Goyfs sucks. I hate Ooze.

-Matt

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He's also so good against loam decks too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Borealis

Plow their Mom every chance you get!

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Oh, that is so fucking sigged.

I chuckled pretty hard at that, too :tongue:

-Matt

Fuck yea, first sig post for me! That's a favorite saying amongst my legacy friends. :)

Hey guys, I won an tournament today with this list:


// Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Putrefy


Round 1: Dragon Stompy 2-1 (me)
Round 2: The gate 1-1
Round 3: Burn 2-0 (me)
Round 4: Reanimator 2-0 (me)
Top 4: UW Stoneblade 2-0 (me)
Final: The gate 2-0 (me)

I like to play with 4 Stoneforges, what do you think about my list?

PS: Sry, Im not english speaker!!!

I think for your meta, your list was perfect.

-Matt

I have been testing the following list with good results:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Beast Within
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

I so rarely get to use Maze of Ith effectively that I almost cut it all together, but it ended up in the SB.

SB:
1 Maze of Ith
4 Extirpate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Pernicious Deed


Sticking Bob with Sylvan Library is almost always better than Top, so I would consider cutting the top, but the off-chance value that I will need to pop it for a card is not irrelevant. Against decks like Burn, Zoo, and Merfolk, I take out the GSZ Bird package for the SFM package (usually Batterskull and an appropriate sword). Arbor can easily trade for Maze in this case, because it gets killed regularly for fear of NO.

Beast Within is killing it every time I use it. It's kind of like Brainstorm in that I wait to get the most information before using it (miss a land drop - here's a 3/3 but you're further behind on land... Drop a fatty - here's a less fatty guy...) It's especially good given that fetching basics is no longer a major problem if you are stuck with Wasteland. I rarely ever cast it if I don't have an answer for the 3/3, which is why I like the GSZ package and SFM switch. Making the creatures green so your sword you naturally drew can kill them is nice.


No tournament practice as yet, but you can see the SB direction for the different matchups.

How do you guys beat BUG jace still decks?

A) I didn't know that deck was good without MM.

b) I didn't know that deck was good without Visions.

How to beat them:

a) Choke
b) Grip
c) Thrun

You need to bait their Deeds. Don't overextend, and board in more discard. Extirpating Deed is also crucial, if you can.

-Matt

What sdematt said... except that they are running about equal on everything except removal, relying on hand destruction and counters. It really comes down to the cards drawn and the specific decks. Try to tear their hand apart, so that they are either threat light or counter light and then force through what you can. I tend to play very aggressively against the deck and keep them off of Deed mana, but not overly aggressive.

I have found the games to be very swingy based on tempo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

A) I didn't know that deck was good without MM.

b) I didn't know that deck was good without Visions.

How to beat them:

a) Choke
b) Grip
c) Thrun

You need to bait their Deeds. Don't overextend, and board in more discard. Extirpating Deed is also crucial, if you can.

-Matt

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I have a full discard package...4 hymsn 4 thoughtseizes.

i have chains in my board, no choke.

Everytime I drop a creature, he would use ghastly demise, innocent blood, or bounce with jace. Eventually, he just Jace ultimate me. I just couldn't keep anything on the board to hurt him. I did extirpate his mishras factory, but his jace, deeds, innocent bloods, and ghastly killed me pretty bad.

Jace is the biggest threat here. I would say your best shot is Extirpating Jace and do your best to resolve a SDT or Library. Perhaps Pithing Needle could be of some help (needs testing).

Anyway, I finally got around to testing GSZ build and I was not impressed. It seems like with GSZ, I was slower against straight aggro (no Mox), more vulnerable to Tempo strategies (easier to Daze when I pay 3 mana for Goyf and 4 for KotR) and weaker to combo (less discard). The only benefit I see is turn 2 ramp into Birds of Paradise which can sometimes help with reaching that crucial 3CMC drops. Also, with GSZ, deck turns from BWg into BWG and as such has shakier mana base.

I'll do some further testing today and see if I can come up with better results.

A friend of mine and I were talking about fitting in the 4th Hymn, and how "bad" SFM can be in a Tempo meta. We basically came to the same conclusion on cutting SFM and focusing on the GSZ build, since we're not like Maverick in the fact that we can just power through a mucked SFM. If we were playing 4 Nobles and 4 GSZ, maybe, but right now, not so much. Plus, do you really want to be derdling with equipment over turns 2-4 when you really want to be laying beats? Again, this strictly comes from a tempo-meta standpoint.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Borealis, I like the list more and more. I'm not totally set on Liliana in my meta, but we'll see. My friend and I were thinking

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Birds of Paradise


4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisiton of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 GSZ

24 lands

As to being slower than SFM, I'd have to disagree. Allowing yourself to get into 3 mana on turn 2 via a Birds on Turn 1 is a legitimate play. It's not like if they don't have the Daze they won't Daze your turn 2 or turn 1 Mox play. Also, you make it seem like I'll always be using GSZ for Knight, but remember, I'm also playing 4, and sometimes I'll also draw them naturally :)

I also think Darkblast is worth taking a look at, especially since you can muck Delvers before they flip, Moms, Nobles, etc. It's gotten me really excited again.

-Matt

It is because of lack of Hierarch that I think this deck doesn't need GSZ. 4 Hierarchs and 4 Zeniths pretty much ensures that you have 3 mana on your 2nd turn and Maverick can accomplish this, we can't.

GSZ and lack of Mox seem to put a strain on manabase that makes Hymn to Tourach much harder to cast. I guess that's why people who are advocating GSZ cut Hymn from their lists. For me, Hymn is the last card I would cut. This deck relies on card advantage and card quality - GSZ only helps with latter; Hymn does both.

Also, Mox opens up some interesting sideboard choices such as Red splash (with Badlands in sideboard) for Ancient Grudge (vs. SFM decks), Firespout / Pyroclasm (vs. Merfolk and Combo Elves) or even Pyroblast (vs. Stoneblade and any Jace deck).

To conclude. GSZ is a very fun card which is probably why people try to put it into any deck playing Green, but from my limited testing, it didn't live up to expectations.

Yeah, I've always felt that GSZ just isn't as strong without Hierarch, and decks like Maverick and Bant pull it off better than we can. In Junk, it's not a bad thing to be able to Zenith for a few key answer dudes, but our creatures are always vulnerable without blue in the deck. For this reason I prefer to have maindeck planeswalkers and solid SB answers that are harder to remove.

Thanks for the shoutout sdematt, I definitely recommend trying out that list. You can always swap out the maindeck Lily for another Elspeth or Scavenging Ooze or some similar threat, but so far in my limited experience I've never minded seeing her off the top. In more than one occasion she has saved the game on her own. She is harder to protect than Elspeth, but has game against combo, aggro, and control, so in a lot of ways she is the perfect card. It's rare that she is not useful, and even as a Vindicate + Fog she is a great play.

Also Darkblast is very good when it's good. I learned in testing to be careful of falling into the Dredge trap too much, trying too hard to kill X/2's vs Maverick and Dredging away valuable cards while 2-for-1ing myself, so keep that in mind, but otherwise it's the nuts. At Vestal I expected a lot of Snapcasters, Maverick, and RUG decks running X/1's, so it was the right call. Darkblasting Mother of Runes is even better than Plowing it. It's probably not necessary as a 2 of unless you see a high amount of x/1s though. Also, Dredging away jank that you've seen with Library manipulation definitely comes up often, so having both Loam and Blast in the 75 really increases your ability to fake a Brainstorm with Top and Sylvan. This deck loves to live off the top, and when you get into a rhythm of "Dredge away some junk, Rip a fresh threat, Darkblast your Wizard, Spin Top again...." your opponents start getting that look on their face that only a Junk player can truly appreciate. :eek:

EDIT: You can't Dredge back Darkblast AND rip a new threat without also having Sylvan Library in play and paying 4 life, but you get the point. If you DO have Sylvan, Top, and Dredgers and haven't lost yet, you are probably in a damn good position anyway if you play it right.