[Deck] U/R Delver

I am not sure either whether S.Vortex should be in the main board.
It is surely a great side board card, no need to argue there.
To give more examples of its use, on top of the added pressure it naturally brings:
vs DnT, it prevents them from coming back with a Batterskull or Jitte (which is usually the doom of our deck when it lands),
vs Reanimator, they won't take full advantage of their Griselbrand (can draw but not gain life),
vs Deathrite Shaman, well they can still use 2 of its 3 abilities, just not gaining life,
vs Punshing Grove combo, they cannot bring back the P.Fire (thus keeping your criters relatively safer),
vs MUD, blanks their Glimmerpost plan as well as the Wurmcoil one,
vs Loam/Eternal Garden, prevents their Zuran Orb B-plan
vs Leyline of Sanctity, you are golden since the Leyline won't prevent the Vortex from hitting them (OK, this is a fringe situation since your opponent will probably not side these Leylines vs UR delver -unless you managed to hide the U spells from them for the whole G1-)
...

However, just as a reminder, S.Vortex is a shitty idea vs Infect.deck 'cause this won't prevent them from casting their Invigorates for nothing.

I like one vortex main but the group I play with is firmly against it. It is a dead draw in some matchups but in others it takes your game 1 from an underdog to a favorite. You can usually brainstorm fetch it away in matchups you don't want it. It really is a decision though. I would argue it is the 60th card if you include it in the main and should be the first cut if you wanted something else it takes up a flex spot.

Thanks! That was exactly the kind of information i needed.


Greetings

I'm a longtime RUG/BUG player, and I'm thinking of sleeving this deck up for my next Legacy event since I want to run a deck that utilizes PoP.

I have to ask why are some lists running YP over Stormchaser Mage? Unless I'm missing something, Stormchaser Mage seems like a better fit for this deck's aggressive style. YP was obviously a better fit back when we had access to TC and DTT imo.

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Originally Posted by Xerlic

I'm a longtime RUG/BUG player, and I'm thinking of sleeving this deck up for my next Legacy event since I want to run a deck that utilizes PoP.

I have to ask why are some lists running YP over Stormchaser Mage? Unless I'm missing something, Stormchaser Mage seems like a better fit for this deck's aggressive style. YP was obviously a better fit back when we had access to TC and DTT imo.

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The YP variants also usually run wasteland and some number of snapcaster mage. Not as aggro

You could probably squeeze the 4th price out for the first vortex. That may be foolish considering price is one of the big reasons to play this deck.

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

The YP variants also usually run wasteland and some number of snapcaster mage. Not as aggro

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I tested it the YP version just to get it out of my system, and it felt like a worse version of Grixis. IMO PoP seems the main draw to play this deck over any of the other Delver decks. I'm liking the list dave78pdx posted on the last page and might just sleeve that up and run it at the Legacy Showdown at GP NY.

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Originally Posted by Xerlic

I have to ask why are some lists running YP over Stormchaser Mage?

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Most of the arguments in my play group come down to: Stormchaser eating a Swords To Plow, or Abrupt Decay is worse than a YP doing the same. You can still get some value out of the YP by casting things while they're still on the stack and getting some sweet, sweet tokens. On the flipside, YP and those tokens really hate Electrickery and cards in that vein. Daze and YP are a bit less of a non-bo, too.

UR Delver Top8 Decklist from Legacy Classic at SCG:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=102543

He did play 4 Wastelands and 1 TITI though..

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

UR Delver Top8 Decklist from Legacy Classic at SCG:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=102543

He did play 4 Wastelands and 1 TITI though..

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Makes sense, with his resource denial plan. Thing in the Ice is pretty good at closing out games from a low resource count, and the ability to rebuy Snapcaster Mages is a pretty cute interaction.

Still, the Wasteland plan is not really my preferred way to play UR Delver. I find the attraction of having 4 maindeck Price of Progress too strong, especially as most of the metagames I've played in have leaned towards the more greedier types of manabases. Having an answer to a resolved Glacial Chasm is pretty nice though.

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Originally Posted by Speedbump

Makes sense, with his resource denial plan. Thing in the Ice is pretty good at closing out games from a low resource count, and the ability to rebuy Snapcaster Mages is a pretty cute interaction.

Still, the Wasteland plan is not really my preferred way to play UR Delver. I find the attraction of having 4 maindeck Price of Progress too strong, especially as most of the metagames I've played in have leaned towards the more greedier types of manabases. Having an answer to a resolved Glacial Chasm is pretty nice though.

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I personally like your trend of thoughts, but that's just not what's popular right now. It comes down to:

Wasteland vs. Price of Progress

When you pick Wasteland, you want to play tempo-resource-trading strategy, which means YP would fit in nicely. When you pick PoP, you want to be aggressive, very aggressive, like Fireblast aggressive.

Recently lots of lists are running Stormchaser. IMHO, it's just not that good of a card to run 4 of. If you want Flying creature #5 and #6 at CMC 2, I suppose it's ok, but that's about as far that card for me. Still don't understand why would people drop Grim Lavamancer all together.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I personally like your trend of thoughts, but that's just not what's popular right now. It comes down to:

Wasteland vs. Price of Progress

When you pick Wasteland, you want to play tempo-resource-trading strategy, which means YP would fit in nicely. When you pick PoP, you want to be aggressive, very aggressive, like Fireblast aggressive.

Recently lots of lists are running Stormchaser. IMHO, it's just not that good of a card to run 4 of. If you want Flying creature #5 and #6 at CMC 2, I suppose it's ok, but that's about as far that card for me. Still don't understand why would people drop Grim Lavamancer all together.

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you answered your own question, stormchaser is hyper aggressive with haste and prowess, lavamancer does nothing the turn he is played, he provides inevitability but is a much slower plan. Lavamancer fits better in the YP plan stormchaser fits better in the swiftspear price of progress plan.

I currently have this list sleeved up of the Stormchaser Mage version.

4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Price of Progress

3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa

SB:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sulfuric Vortex

I'm unsure of the cards I have in bold. TNN seems like a great way to close out games as a non-interactive Lava Spike each turn, but I'm wondering if he's worth the slot. The 2 Spell Pierces is from Dalton Ozmun's list that Top 8'd a recent classic, but 2 seems like a lot and I think I should replace 1 with a Fireblast.

Any thoughts on the sideboard? I feel like I should get the fourth Price into the board, somehow. I've always included 1 Null Rod and 1 Pithing Needle in my lists, but this deck seems like it's wants to be more proactive. Blood Moon is just too slow for this deck, right?

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Originally Posted by shocked439

you answered your own question, stormchaser is hyper aggressive with haste and prowess, lavamancer does nothing the turn he is played, he provides inevitability but is a much slower plan. Lavamancer fits better in the YP plan stormchaser fits better in the swiftspear price of progress plan.

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But if you want to be hyper aggressive, isn't Goblin Guide simply faster and more consistent in terms of attacking power? No one is stopping UR archetype from using traditionally mono-red burn cards. I still see plenty of room for tuning.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

But if you want to be hyper aggressive, isn't Goblin Guide simply faster and more consistent in terms of attacking power? No one is stopping UR archetype from using traditionally mono-red burn cards. I still see plenty of room for tuning.

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GG gets outclassed eventually, a t1 gg pass t2 goyf feels pretty bad. Stormchaser has evasion and all of your damage spells are buffs for him. If your pponent tries to bolt him you bolt in response and save him.

When you are playing against a burn deck and they go t1 gg, t2 swiftspear and you can remove one of them which do you choose? The goblin guide helps you find answers and is a predictable amount of damage. I tend to find the swiftspear more troubling because I never know how much damage I am taking when I pass the turn.

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Originally Posted by Xerlic

I currently have this list sleeved up of the Stormchaser Mage version.

1 True-Name Nemesis

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What about snapcaster mage? Seems like snapping back bolt or PoP seems like a great play in this deck.

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2 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

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Why not cut a forked bolt or move it to the side for the second pierce? Pierce is a really really good spell, hitting most thing you care about.

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SB:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sulfur Elemental

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These are the sideboard slots I think you can play around with. You can easily cut anyone of these in favor of a fireblast, forked bolt, or spell pierce. As for blood moon it's not a bad play. It can make some bad match ups better. If I were playing a deck that could maneuver itself into a position to leverage blood moon I would really want to include blood moon in the board. It is really effective against sol land strategies (mud, eldrazi, stompy) bug delver, shardless to an extent, turbo lands, punishing jund. I would try to include it but with a plan of how the deck will function when it is brought in.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

What about snapcaster mage? Seems like snapping back bolt or PoP seems like a great play in this deck.

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Snapcaster Mage is kinda hard to work with in a 16-land deck (of which, only 6 tap for mana), especially if you want to use it to flashback Price of Progress. Getting to 4 mana is rather cumbersome, especially if you have to also use Daze or get a land hit by Wasteland. While it is a more suitable choice for his style of deck, I think replacing it with the fourth Price of Progess might be better, especially if that's the main reason for Snapcaster Mage's inclusion in the deck.

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Originally Posted by shocked439

Why not cut a forked bolt or move it to the side for the second pierce? Pierce is a really really good spell, hitting most thing you care about.

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A split of 2 Forked Bolt/2 Spell Pierce is a good mix for the maindeck, assuming that the metagame is unknown. (Not sure if it was 3 Forked Bolt/1 Spell Pierce when you replied to him) I'm still not sold on the second Forked Bolt myself (based on the lack of Aggro decks I tend to play against), although not sure what I would replace it with in my list.

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Originally Posted by Speedbump

Snapcaster Mage is kinda hard to work with in a 16-land deck (of which, only 6 tap for mana), especially if you want to use it to flashback Price of Progress. Getting to 4 mana is rather cumbersome, especially if you have to also use Daze or get a land hit by Wasteland. While it is a more suitable choice for his style of deck, I think replacing it with the fourth Price of Progess might be better, especially if that's the main reason for Snapcaster Mage's inclusion in the deck.

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The 1 TNN was originally a Snapcaster Mage for flashing back PoP among other spells, but I cut it for the mana reasons that you already went into.

I'm pretty hesitant to go up to 4 PoPs in the main because it's either amazing in matchups where it shines or dead against basic heavy decks like DnT and Miracles.

The 2 Forked Bolts are basically pseudo Chain Lightnings that have the option to be really good against DnT and Infect. It might be worth it to replace 1 with a Fireblast. I'm kind of bearish on picking up a set of Chain Lightnings when it's most likely going to show up in EMA.

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Originally Posted by Xerlic

The 1 TNN was originally a Snapcaster Mage for flashing back PoP among other spells, but I cut it for the mana reasons that you already went into.

I'm pretty hesitant to go up to 4 PoPs in the main because it's either amazing in matchups where it shines or dead against basic heavy decks like DnT and Miracles.

The 2 Forked Bolts are basically pseudo Chain Lightnings that have the option to be really good against DnT and Infect. It might be worth it to replace 1 with a Fireblast. I'm kind of bearish on picking up a set of Chain Lightnings when it's most likely going to show up in EMA.

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Have the forked bolts been better in practice than chain lightning would have been?

i think the singleton fireblast is a mistake, but thats me.

I played 2x Fireblast in the RU Delver with Stormchaser Mage I took to 2nd place locally. It surprised many opponents. One guy took 8 damage from a swing thinking 4 life is "out of bolt range." I also got to float ru, fireblast, price of progress to win at low life once.