Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I came across an interesting situation today maybe it is a nice "Whats the play?" for others too:
Postboard game against miracles:
Our board:
http://i.imgur.com/A7nsRRX.jpg
The 2 Needles are on Top and Jace, in Exile are 2 DRS+ the FOW, Lili just ulitmated form 7 counters
Theirs:
http://i.imgur.com/B7qlueL.jpg
The 2 last cards in their GY are STOP and Tarn, in Exile there is Ponder+W//T. They had 2 cards in hand for a while and I drew a lot of lands and just ticked up lili. So you can assume they are reactive or uncastable
How do you do the piles?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MorphBerlin
I came across an interesting situation today maybe it is a nice "Whats the play?" for others too:
Postboard game against miracles:
Our board:
http://i.imgur.com/A7nsRRX.jpg
The 2 Needles are on Top and Jace, in Exile are 2 DRS+ the FOW, Lili just ulitmated form 7 counters
Theirs:
http://i.imgur.com/B7qlueL.jpg
The 2 last cards in their GY are STOP and Tarn, in Exile there is Ponder+W//T. They had 2 cards in hand for a while and I drew a lot of lands and just ticked up lili. So you can assume they are reactive or uncastable
How do you do the piles?
I'm going to assume that this is precombat or they aren't floating mana.
Since Jace is Needled, I definitely want to keep him separate from Red mana, so that's where the piles start. Snapcaster goes with Volc so that a topdecked Wear/Tear doesn't immediately blow the game open. The next step is maximizing the odds that Sylvan Library resolves. With Volc+Snap split against Jace, I'd put the untapped Tundra in the Jace pile to shut down Counterspell. The rest sort of depends on how you sideboared. Assuming you have a couple of Wastelands still in your deck, I'd put the tapped Islands with Snap, and the tapped Tundra with Jace since your opponent is likely to take the Snap pile and I want to maximize damage from the ultimate. If you don't have Wastelands, I'd probably make sure I broke up my opponent's access to WW, so I'd be at least somewhat tempted to split the Tundras and basics.
So the overall piles are:
Pile 1:
Jace
Tundra (untapped)
Tundra (tapped)
Pile 2:
Snapcaster Mage
Volcanic Island (untapped)
2 Island
Then cast Sylvan Library.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Yeah this was the same pile I choose, maybe it was not so interesting after all. Just wanted to hear an unbiased opinion because I knew the cards in both hands.
All other options weren't as appealing, I was trying to find a good way yo save the lili but it wasn't worth it risking the wear/tear blow out.
I don't know if I boarded out wastelands this game, I was toying around with my boarding plans a bit.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Pile 1
Jace
Snapcaster
untapped tundra
Pile 2
Island
Island
volcanic
tapped tundra
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JBlaze
Pile 1
Jace
Snapcaster
untapped tundra
Pile 2
Island
Island
volcanic
tapped tundra
What's your reasoning here?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MorphBerlin
Yeah this was the same pile I choose, maybe it was not so interesting after all. Just wanted to hear an unbiased opinion because I knew the cards in both hands.
All other options weren't as appealing, I was trying to find a good way yo save the lili but it wasn't worth it risking the wear/tear blow out.
I don't know if I boarded out wastelands this game, I was toying around with my boarding plans a bit.
No, I think it's interesting. Liliana splits are shockingly easy to screw up.
How did the game play out?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
No, I think it's interesting. Liliana splits are shockingly easy to screw up.
How did the game play out?
The cards in hand of the Miracles player were S2P and REB so the unanswered Library + no topdecks from the other side just won the game.
So because I was bored and cant use cokatrice atm, I tested the MU but played both sides. So far it has been 10-10 preboard and 15-5 postboard for shardless. Obviously knowing both hands all time is bad for objective testing and I am not a good miracles player, but I was amazed by the postboard results. Assuming they are on the -CB/FOW +REBS/Snap/Wear Tear sb-plan I feel really good with this configuration. Might give up some %to eldrazi/delver/dnt maybe though.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Against Miracles, we're not trying to control the game, just bring the beats and some disruption to keep them from controlling us.
Null rod and Pithing needle are amazing at shutting down top and needle shuts down JTMS (and that's even ok leaving our own 1x JTMS in since it pitches to force and can be brainstormed away if they land theirs first and we needle it). I'm up to 2 pithing needles and 1 null rod in the board.
Needles are great against all sorts of stuff (stoneblade, walkers, elves actually too for Quirion and Wirewood, belcher), null rod is awesome against Storm and belcher.
I've also found room for a 3rd LotV in the 75 just for miracles. She wrecks them if you get it out before a mentor lands.
In the last Legacy event I played, in the one match I played against miracles, I was able to ult LotV twice (twice!) which really puts a squeeze on their resources.
I used to be running a 5-card white splash in the board for storm/combo decks (Scrubland, 3x Meddling Mage, 1x Ethersworn Canonist), but moved away from that because Eldrazi thorns and chalice seems to be checking combo pretty well. At least in my meta.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
What are people's thoughts on Misdirection for the mirror?
In theory it seems really good, redirect your ancestral to me, and your decay onto YOUR DRS, not mine. It's card disadvantage like Force, so it's bad in that sense, but the two spells it's supposed to hit help swing CA back to us.
The forces come out and other hymns/LotV/strix comes in, so our blue count goes down.
In the end it just might be too narrow (i.e., it's only really good against the mirror). Its other applications seem fringe at best.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OlyForce
What are people's thoughts on Misdirection for the mirror?
In theory it seems really good, redirect your ancestral to me, and your decay onto YOUR DRS, not mine. It's card disadvantage like Force, so it's bad in that sense, but the two spells it's supposed to hit help swing CA back to us.
The forces come out and other hymns/LotV/strix comes in, so our blue count goes down.
In the end it just might be too narrow (i.e., it's only really good against the mirror). Its other applications seem fringe at best.
I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.
Nailed it. It's great in theory, in practice it's different. All your blue cards are great in the mirror too.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I don't think it makes the cut, even in the mirror. I'm way more concerned about the conditionality of Misdirection than I am about the card disadvantage. It's great in the mirror, but only if you have it at the right time. Like Notion Theif, I think the opportunity cost is higher than any benefit you'd gain, even though misdirecting a Hymn is a great feeling.
btm10 and Dissection thanks for your input. You're probably right, and i'm just greedy haha. I love 'gotcha' cards and Misdirection was so juicy I just couldn't take it out. Thank you for guiding me back to the light.
I've always brought forces out for the mirror, the card advantage theory being the driving force behind what goes in/out of the SB. Is that consistent with your thinking?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I wanted to give a quick write-up of my weekly Legacy event (~20 ppl), I just moved so I was entering an unknown meta. I wanted to get your thoughts/feedback on my sideboard plan and also my MD choices. Here's the list I took:
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Baleful Strix
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
4x Ancestral Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Force of Will
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
3x Wasteland
Sideboard:
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Round 1: Elves
Got a quick 0-2 here even though I was able to stall both games out much longer than they really should have gone. Wasn't able to find a Toxic Deluge to wipe the board in either game though. Wasteland did some serious work here keeping Gaea's Cradle down.
+In: 2x Disfigure, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Jitte
-Out: 2x Liliana, 1x Jace, 2x Hymn (would it have been better to cut Strix here instead, even though it could carry a Jitte and fly over defenders?)
Round 2: UB Reanimator
Yep, all the good matchups this week- another quick 0-2. Game 1 (OTP) I was able to strip the entomb out of his hand after he T1 Thoughtseized and took my Force, he eventually recovered after a Careful Study and got an Iona on the field (naming Black) and a Tidespout Tyrant. I was able to unsummon the Iona with Jace but couldn't find an answer for the Tidespout. Game 2 I mulled to 6 and saw: Leyline, Leyline, Hymn, Hymn, 2 Lands. Seems ok, right? Nope- he topdecks a Show & Tell T3 and jams it, getting an Inkwell Leviathan in play. Couldn't find an answer and got beat down for 3 turns.
+In: 4x Leyline, 2x Hymn, 2x Thoughtseize
-Out: 4x Abrupt Decay, 4x Ancestral Visions (This may not be the right way to SB- even though discard potentially "helps" them, I play the SB games mulling for Leyline and trying to get threats out of their hand so S&T is a blank)
Round 3: Eldrazi
Actually had a decent series of games here, G1 I was able to stabilize at 6 life with a Deathrite/Strix and dodge a topdecked Reality Smasher until I could stabilize further and take over with my Goyfs. Game 2 I mulled to 4 and got smashed relatively quickly. G3 Liliana did some heavy lifting and I was able to keep the board relatively clear and chip away with a Goyf. The only "lock" piece I saw in all three games was a Thorn G2 that only resulted in 1 mana being paid for an Ancestral Visions.
+In: 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Dismember, 1x Jitte, 1x Hymn
-Out: 4x Abrupt Decay (Not a lot to board in here- Hymn isn't great but it can really punish them if they start slow or I get a key Wasteland or two down, which happened in these games).
After talking to a few people, it seems like the meta is fairly spread out, maybe a little more combo than you would expect and a little less Miracles/Shardless. Not great news for me taking Shardless, but I love playing the deck and have about 3 years experience with it, so I'll grit it out. I think for next week I'll move one Strix to the SB (2 Main, 1 Side), move a Hymn main (3 Main), make the 4th SB Hymn into another Thoughtseize (3 Side) or maybe a second Dismember (2 Side). Maybe even a Garruk Relentless but I've heard mixed results on him, anyone have any playtest experience with him? Any thoughts or advice appreciated!
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Garruk is insane in any matchup where you can expect to cast him. At his worst he's a Bitterblossom but makes 2/2s and randomly kills a Snapcaster Mage. At his best he's an almost unbeatable trump in BGx pseudo-mirrors, against Miracles, and puts in solid work against D&T. He's worth bringing in against Eldrazi since the Deathtouch Wolves that Garruk, the Veil-Cursed makes are basically a free Strix every turn.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
Garruk is insane in any matchup where you can expect to cast him. At his worst he's a Bitterblossom but makes 2/2s and randomly kills a Snapcaster Mage. At his best he's an almost unbeatable trump in BGx pseudo-mirrors, against Miracles, and puts in solid work against D&T. He's worth bringing in against Eldrazi since the Deathtouch Wolves that
Garruk, the Veil-Cursed makes are basically a free Strix every turn.
As I love garruk and would agree that he could possibly do work against death and taxes don't you think it would be somewhat unreliable to cast a four drop against wasteland, rishadan port, Thalia, revoker on death rite and then to top it off mirran crusader cares not what garruk does, then you have to worry about mom! The only plus is that it's just green so you don't have to have blue to cast it. Sadly I keep him out and just try to lower my curve. Also against eldrazi the 1/1s are awesome but you only have four cards that flip him (eldrazi mimic) unless you're targeting your own creatures.... Not trying to be a naysayer just bringing up the counter points, I think garruk is a beast just not in those particular match ups.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
minyafriend
As I love garruk and would agree that he could possibly do work against death and taxes don't you think it would be somewhat unreliable to cast a four drop against wasteland, rishadan port, Thalia, revoker on death rite and then to top it off mirran crusader cares not what garruk does, then you have to worry about mom! The only plus is that it's just green so you don't have to have blue to cast it. Sadly I keep him out and just try to lower my curve. Also against eldrazi the 1/1s are awesome but you only have four cards that flip him (eldrazi mimic) unless you're targeting your own creatures.... Not trying to be a naysayer just bringing up the counter points, I think garruk is a beast just not in those particular match ups.
You aren't winning any games against D&T where you don't get to four main phase mana anyway, and Garruk is way better than Force and discard against them. Killing Mimics or small Endless Ones is a fine use for Garruk's 0 ability, and I'm thrilled trading my own Shardless Agent or Deathrite to flip Garruk in the mid game. They can't beat the 1/1s without Endbringer or All is Dust, and those cards are what Wasteland, Force of Will, and extra removal are for.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...
Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheHeff
Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...
Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
4th baleful strix is the card that pops out at first glance but it really depends on what you expect to see. Garruk is great against Bug/grixis delver, mirror, miracles and jund where the fourth strix would be good but probably not as good as garruk against the mirror, jund and strictly better against u/r + rug delver, eldrazi and worse against miracles.
I'm sure you'll get other opinions but I'd just say try em all out and see what fits your meta and playstyle best!
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheHeff
Interesting about Garruk, I'll have to give him a shot. What do you think I should take out of the SB to fit him? Right now I'm leaning heavily towards cutting the 3rd Strix, and to a smaller degree maybe the third Thoughtseize. It seems like a pretty diverse meta so far...
Current SB, full list in sig:
1x Baleful Strix
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
3x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
I would cut one of the 4 Removal (which one is depending whether value or mana efficiency is more important to you) or the 4th Leyline. TS is too important in any combo MU and Garruk also fights creatures.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Hey guys,
Influenced by The Brainstorm Show podcast I've been running a Jitte in the maindeck for a little while now and it's been overperforming so I bumped the number up to two. The deck was struggling with Grixis Delver and Monastery Mentor a bit and Jitte is phenomenal vs both. It's been working almost as a proactive replacement for Toxic Deluge, I'd be interested to hear if anybody else has been trying it? The list below has been running pretty smoothly.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
SB:
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
1 Disfigure
1 Murderous Cut
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
Did in the end, anyone try out the list from the Brainstorm Show?
