[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by elijah

Has anybody tried a Phyrexian Revoker vs. Pithing Needle in the sideboard? Revoker is a turn slower and is vulnerable to removal (in a worse case scenario), but combos with both Cradle and Glimpse, two of the big facilitators of the deck, as well as with Craterhoof.

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I haven't tested it in Elves because the reasons you provided are enough for me to think its the weaker alternative (in Elves case). We are vulnerable to removal / easy board wipes as it is, lets not add another card to that. Additionally, sometimes we want to Pithing Needle ASAP, for example if you have no discard and are vs a storm variant. Even Miracles is something we want to make sure Needle sticks targeting SDT, rather than lose Revoker to STPS / Terminus / Supreme Verdict...and then they have access to SDT again. Additionally, against UWR I'd rather have Needle as its harder to get rid of, whereas they have 8 main deck answers usually (Bolt/STPS) just to get rid of it, in addition to any counter you have to pass up.

Of those 3 MU's, 2 of our hardest (Miracles + UWR), with the other (Storm) being a race slightly in their favor.

What do you use pithing needle against in the storm match?

I'm wondering about that myself. Peedle does not shut off flashback, unfortunately, and also does not stop LED since it's ability is a mana abilitie.

Continueing on sideboards - I've been running an Essence Warden and a Bane of Progress.

The Warden does rather well against Goblins with all the tokens they make, buying you some more time to get the cards you need to win, improves the mirror match and gives Storm players a slightly harder time killing you, since they'll have to up their storm count for every 1 + 2*n life you gain. Incidentally, it helps with the RUG match-up if it sticks with a Wirewood Symbiote and another elf on the battlefield, slowing down their clock considerably (as long as they don't have more then one threat on the battlefied, obviously).

Bane of Progress is just silly when boarded in against Affinity (which I know already is a good MU but this guy pretty much seals the deal) and helps with the Miracles MU since you're forcing your opponent to choose to either safe their Top and forfeitting the Terminus they keep on top of their library or let you destroy both their Top AND Counterbalance so they can empty your board on their draw step. Heck, the Bane is nice against any match-up where your opponent is likely to have a number of artifacts and/or enchantments on the battlefield. Also circumvents Spellskite quite nicely, helping you get rid of things like Energy Field and Moat :smile:

Matt Nass is currently the last undefeated player at the SCG Invitational, playing Elves in the Legacy portion.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Matt Nass is currently the last undefeated player at the SCG Invitational, playing Elves in the Legacy portion.

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Round 16 he is currently 11-4, playing Merfolk. He seems to be playing Gitaxion Probe? Cool.

EDIT : Well, for those that didn't see or want to watch the videos later, SPOILER ALERT....

Pretty tough loss/finish for Matt Nass...I mean overall awesome going 10-0 to start; thats quite an accomplishment and its to bad how it ended up. The luck of getting the 1 copy of Jitte and 1 copy of Pithing Needle that was put in from the board in your opening hand is pretty...crazy (in addition to 2 Submerges in both game 2 and 3 before turn 3). I was surprised Progenitus wasn't boarded in; however. I know its not typically boarded in vs Merfolk, but I always asked why and no one has been able to convince me otherwise. This game is a good (maybe rare) example of why Prog is useful in the MU. We know Merfolk can put on quite a clock and quickly.
Anyway, good win for the other player.

Progenitus is usually easily outraced by Merfolk unless you get it down on turn 2. However, even on the draw, turn2 Progenitus is quite often just too slow. It's more of a liability most of the time.

I think Nass may have really handicapped himself by not having access to Viridian Shaman in his 75. I think that card is extremely good right now in a field of SFM decks and it's a card that I actually want against fish because bashing a vial slows them down so much and it also answers Jitte.

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Originally Posted by 264505

I think Nass may have really handicapped himself by not having access to Viridian Shaman in his 75. I think that card is extremely good right now in a field of SFM decks and it's a card that I actually want against fish because bashing a vial slows them down so much and it also answers Jitte.

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Well, he had access to Qasali I believe. That being said, I am with those that prefer Viridian, especially main right now due to the fact (as you suggested) that the amount of SFM decks are pretty high. I love its usage with Wirewood, something I believe people overlook.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

Fwiw I have only lost one game ever where I resolved a meekstone against rug delver. And I've been playing I my board for about a year now.

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I've began testing this a week ago...well I loved it, until 30 seconds ago, when I lost game 3 of RUG Delver with meekstone in play and my deck provided me with more land draws than any elf deck should ever have to deal with. From 17 life to 0 in 7 turns no creatures (bolts 1/1 delver). YAY VARIANCE.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Progenitus is usually easily outraced by Merfolk unless you get it down on turn 2. However, even on the draw, turn2 Progenitus is quite often just too slow. It's more of a liability most of the time.

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I agree about Progenitus; it's either early or its not enough. How do you recommend we sideboard against Merfolk? I like bringing in Viridian Shaman (if it's not main deck), Abrupt Decay, and hand disruption.

LoR

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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell

I agree about Progenitus; it's either early or its not enough. How do you recommend we sideboard against Merfolk? I like bringing in Viridian Shaman (if it's not main deck), Abrupt Decay, and hand disruption.

LoR

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His BoM guide recommends siding in Needles (or Mutavault and Vial) and nothing more.

Right you are. I should have thought to look there. Thanks.

I am thinking about making elves getting back into legacy after about a 4 year break from it. Thoughts on my build?

Creatures: 29
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Sorceries: 11
3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 20
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Side: 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
2 Thoughtseize

I am wondering what people have found to be the best split for gaea's cradle/crop rotation?

4 Cradle without rotation is the norm. On your list, I would start by cutting Force and adding another Hoof, cutting Priest for a Viridian Shaman and cutting Llanowar for a second Dryad. Sideboards are a meta thing so I will not comment on that unless I have information of what you expect to face.

Dice.

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Originally Posted by helghast101

I am thinking about making elves getting back into legacy after about a 4 year break from it. Thoughts on my build?

*snip*

Side: 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
3 Thoughtseize

I am wondering what people have found to be the best split for gaea's cradle/crop rotation?

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As Dice said, no more Crop Rotation due to legendary rule change. The deck also doesn't need Regal Force anymore as Hoof usually wins when you have high creature counts that make Regal Force useful. Two Hoofs in the main are usually the normal to combat things like Stifle or STP. As for the other changes Dice suggested...it's not set in stone. There is about 2-3 flex slots for land and about 3-4 flex slots for spells in the deck. The lands are divided up between more fetchlands, basic Forests, and/or Dryad Arbors. The spells are divided up between Llanowar Elves, Birchlore Rangers, Ruric Thar (for storm-heavy metas only), and Viridian Shaman. Some also experiment with 61 cards in the main deck. I'd suggest just tooling around with it until you get comfortable. I currently have 1 Arbor, 9 fetches, 2 Forests, no Birchlores, 3 Llanowar Elves, no Ruric Thar, 1 V Shaman, and I cut a Heritage for the 4th NO. I may go to 61, for which I would add the 2nd Arbor. I haven't played since the GP though. :P

Sideboard is at least 4 discard spells, 2 Abrupt Decays, Scavenging Ooze, Progenitus, the 4th NO if not main deck, and Pridemage/Sliver if running Savannah. The other slots are meta-dependent. I suggest at least 6 discard spells and 3 Decays though for most metas though. I think my current SB would be 6 discard spells, 3 Decays, 1 Progen, 1 Pridemage, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ruric Thar.

I LOVE CROP ROTATION!
WHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Got into the deck again last night on MTGO.
Went 3-1 in 2-man queues.
I am quite rusty!

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

I LOVE CROP ROTATION!
WHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Got into the deck again last night on MTGO.
Went 3-1 in 2-man queues.
I am quite rusty!

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To be honest the Crop Rotation for a Cradle or from Cradle to new Cradle was originally my favorite interaction in the deck, but the I haven't missed it since the legend rule change. Anyway I've been trying to do more of the legacy daily's on MTGO myself, went 3-1 last night, planning on playing tonight.

So from SCG's other legacy event (non-invitational) there ended up being 1 Elf player in the top 8 (Ross Merriam, congrats) and then 2 other elven armies in the Top 12. Not a bad day for the tribal brotherhood. Nothing really stood out as new tech. I suppose taking note of Ross's 3 Heritage Druid in favor of 3 mana dorks (Llanowar/Fyndhorn/Mystic) is notable. This is something I'd be interested in trying.

Elves are in a good place right now. Powerful and hard to hate out. The issue is, if sweepers become the default way to handle Progenifish what will become of us? The splash damage that fish could create could be harsh.

Still this is the most complex deck I own, gets me thinking when I play it. I loath to see it go to waste. We need a plan.

Drop the Glimpse-plan and go for aggro with lords..? Elvish Archdruid might also allow you to keep playing Craterhoof Behemoth.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Drop the Glimpse-plan and go for aggro with lords..? Elvish Archdruid might also allow you to keep playing Craterhoof Behemoth.

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Glimpse used to generate cardadvantage is your main plan to beat sweepers. I'm used to slow roll against such stuff basically by just setting up double-DRS-shots till they are forced to sweep with overcommiting further till they are forced to sweep, then rinse and repeat the setup with Glimpse drawing 3-5 cards. That's how I beat the miracle-players...

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That's how I beat the miracle-players...

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Until you are trapped between sensei + counterbalance :wink:

@Sweeper:
Elves works fine as an engine, maybe we can tweak some slots for our own metas (Maindeck: Ooze, Viridian, 2nd Craterhoof vs Ruric etc / Sideboard: P.Needle, and a wide range of Combohate). You also can use some weird stuff like Archdruid, Wilt-Leaf or Planeswalker like Garruk.

Maybe we get some new stuff from the next set, but elves works still fine and if you can't beat the hate, try another deck and wait till the dust has settled.