[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

---

To be fair, it was a thought experiment that started with "so what if Push becomes heavily played?" only it turned out that the idea was legit regardless of Push being a thing because of Decay and Bolt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guest2511

I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

---

But Winter Orb is amazing against Goblins and Merfolk, that's what's confusing to me! As rlesko pointed out, there was Miracle Gro to work from, it really makes no sense that Winter Orb was ever dropped from this kind of deck. Almost every matchup that has ever been bad for Canadian is solved by Winter Orb (Stoneblade decks, Nic Fit, Vial decks...). Jund is a notable exception, but that's about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

-4 forces / dazes (play / draw)
-3 spell snare (only seems to be 3 targets total in their 75, they have all 3/4 drops)
-2 goyf (only if you can bring true name in)
+2 TNN
+3 pyroblast
+2/3 winter orb
+2 submerge

With the intention of bolting their 1 drops, pyroblasting / dazing their 3 drops, then dropping an orb on them after that.

EDIT: i'm still back and forth on bringing in ancient grudge. If going by reid duke's list I would think they are cutting their forces for 2nd jitte, truths, 2x submerge. Maybe 1 grudge gets sided in since if they land a jitte it would be nice to have some outs to that.

---

I think it's reasonable to play this matchup like Aggro Loam. I think I would board out Stifles over free counters, but can't say for sure. Don't like Grudge and I'm probably boarding out Spell Pierce. Exact boarding depends on your 75, but Pyroblast is great, free counters are great, removal for their mana creatures is good, True-Name is better than Goyf, Winter Orb is deece although I think I would prefer Loam in Delverless. Boarding out Stifle allows you to play a little more aggressively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

I think it's reasonable to play this matchup like Aggro Loam. I think I would board out Stifles over free counters, but can't say for sure. Don't like Grudge and I'm probably boarding out Spell Pierce. Exact boarding depends on your 75, but Pyroblast is great, free counters are great, removal for their mana creatures is good, True-Name is better than Goyf, Winter Orb is deece although I think I would prefer Loam in Delverless. Boarding out Stifle allows you to play a little more aggressively.

---

Its so hard for me to cut stifles against a 3 color deck that needs 3 or more mana to do anything relevant, but you could be right. I am admittedly speculating and haven't played this match up. On the other hand, the fact that we need to counter all their true names or pretty much lose (unless we already were ahead in the race and had a true name of our own) would favor a boarding plan that keeps all force of wills in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlesko

Its so hard for me to cut stifles against a 3 color deck that needs 3 or more mana to do anything relevant, but you could be right. I am admittedly speculating and haven't played this match up. On the other hand, the fact that we need to counter all their true names or pretty much lose (unless we already were ahead in the race and had a true name of our own) would favor a boarding plan that keeps all force of wills in.

---

The same applies to Daze only that with Stifle, they know when they can cast their spells and it costs you mana. But you're right, it's close between the two. I tend to gravitate towards as many free counters as possible in most matchups.


By the way (!), I have finished uploading all the matches from the Legacy Challenge. If you only care little about the few lines I drop in the articles, you can go straight to the YouTube playlist. Otherwise, each blog post individually:

#theweeklywars #18 — February Legacy Challenge

#thedailywars #2 — February Legacy Challenge Round Two vs. Miracles

#thedailywars #3 — February Legacy Challenge Round Three vs. Belcher

#thedailywars #4 — February Legacy Challenge Round Four vs. Grixis Delver

#thedailywars #5 — February Legacy Challenge Round Five vs. Grixis Midrange

#thedailywars #6 — February Legacy Challenge Round Six vs. Miracles

#thedailywars #7 — February Legacy Challenge Round Seven vs. Miracles

I'm going to have another one or two matches early next week (against D&T and Shardless, likely Tuesday and Wednesday), but after that, I'm done with Canadian content for a while. Well, until the next Legacy Challenge, probably haha

My friend took down our monthly tournament in London with Dark Thresh yesterday, tournament roundup and decklist here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...985#post992985

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whitefaces

My friend took down our monthly tournament in London with Dark Thresh yesterday, tournament roundup and decklist here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...985#post992985

---

Is that rug or just bug?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Is that rug or just bug?

---

BUG.

List for the lazy

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman

Spells (32)
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stilfe
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Painful Truths

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Dread of Night
2 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whitefaces

BUG.

---

But there is a BUG thread right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldenCid

But there is a BUG thread right?

---

I assume he posted it here because Dark "Thresh"

It isn't quite a Team America list either

Yeah, check over the past few pages, this topic has been discussed already.

J. Alexander's Delver-less RUG list is very easy to port over to BUG. You lose the versatility and power of Lightning Bolt, but in exchange get a new kind of versatility via Abrupt Decay.

18 Lands (3/3 Sea/Trop; 4 Waste; 8 Fetch)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 BStorm
4 N. Mongoose
4 DRS
3 TNNemesis
1 Counterspell
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember // Fatal Push (preferential and meta-dependent)
1 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard (rough draft):
3 Winter Orb
3 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

I suppose if you think 4 DRS is too many, you could instead run Hooting Mandrills and/or Gurmag Angler, and/or run additional spells (I cut the 3rd Spell Snare and the singleton main deck Spell Pierce for room). Personally, I consider opening with a turn 1 DRS to be among the best things to do in Legacy.

I think the main attraction of red is Pyroblast, not Lightning Bolt. Though Bolt (aka Time Walk) and Fatal Push are hard to compare in this deck too.

DRS has also been super underwhelming in the Dark Thresh build, I want to cut them completely but can't think of a good solution yet. Maybe just going to 8 threats is ok.

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draggo

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.

---

This idea is floating around :D

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/579257#online

I can't grasp the idea of playing 4 mandrills with 4 goose in the same list. I guess Thought Scour makes it work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draggo

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.

---

This. If you play Deathrite, there's no reason not to play Delver as well. Also refer to what Whitefaces said; not that I would go as far as calling Deathrite super underwhelming, but it's less impressive than Delver. Deathrite + Loam is really good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by echofish

I can't grasp the idea of playing 4 mandrills with 4 goose in the same list. I guess Thought Scour makes it work.

---

This is overstated a lot. Reaching Threshold is almost trivial, also one of the reasons why Deathrite as a threat vs. Canadian is heavily exaggerated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Also refer to what Whitefaces said; not that I would go as far as calling Deathrite super underwhelming, but it's less impressive than Delver. Deathrite + Loam is really good.

---

Maybe I'm overstating it a bit. But compared to my expectations I've been really surprised by how much I've disliked DRS in the deck.

Hi, I played some games with the great delver less rug list shared previously by Jonathan Alexander.
I substitute 1 TNN for 1 blurred mongoose and 1 sudden demise for a second surgical extraction due to budget consideration ( 40+ and 7 tix respectively) .

I played Miracle about 4times and the same amount of random mtgo brews.

Against Miracle, I really like when the blurred mongoose hits the board. Not having to plan to protect it means I can keep tnn for later and hold counters for sweeper.

It is an easy side out against pyromancer deck or creature heavy deck I think and it is obviously inferior to tnn but I taught I would share here anyway no matter how obvious this sounds. Thanks






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ptahetep

Hi, I played some games with the great delver less rug list shared previously by Jonathan Alexander.
I substitute 1 TNN for 1 blurred mongoose and 1 sudden demise for a second surgical extraction due to budget consideration ( 40+ and 7 tix respectively) .

I played Miracle about 4times and the same amount of random mtgo brews.

Against Miracle, I really like when the blurred mongoose hits the board. Not having to plan to protect it means I can keep tnn for later and hold counters for sweeper.

It is an easy side out against pyromancer deck or creature heavy deck I think and it is obviously inferior to tnn but I taught I would share here anyway no matter how obvious this sounds. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

i understand you have budget concerns, and that's fine. but i want to point out two big issues:

(1) blurred mongoose isn't good vs miracles since it trades with snapcaster mage. one of the huge advantages of jonathan's list is that snapcaster does nothing. something like troll ascetic. would be better.
(2) you rarely want to be countering terminus vs miracles. rather, you want to save countermagic to win counter battles over counterbalance and mentor.

If you don't have the third True-Name, play a second Loam instead. It's a change I've wanted to try anyway. If you do that, I don't think a second Barbarian Ring over Sudden Demise is unreasonable either (another thing I've wanted to try, really not sure about the sideboard sweepers). Also what haxorz said about sweepers, after sideboarding, ignore them unless you have your opponent actually locked under Orb (zero untapped lands) and you have a good hand of countermagic. It's a little more tricky before sideboarding.

Hi all. Just getting into Legacy, longtime Modern UR/x Delver player. I've been playing a pretty standard Dark Thresh that I've been quite pleased with, locally. Miracles, Grixis Trix, Nic Fit, and Maverick are my regular opponents.

Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis

Instants: 24
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember

Sorceries: 4
4 Ponder

Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Watery Grave
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Make Obsolete
1 Painful Truths

With the exception of the second and third duals, I own everything in the list. At the moment, the second Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, and second and third Tropical Islands are shocklands, which would lose me serious percentage points were I to take the list to a larger event.

That said, I've loved this list against the decks I've faced. I'm glad that my SB plan against Miracles, from what I've read learning the format, seems to be getting attention again. Winter Orb and Pyroblast, True Names have been great against Miracles, siding out 4 Delvers, 3 Deathrite.