[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Most likely it's playstyle and meta. ITF dies horribly to Moon/waste effects, and does a good job against Thresh-ish decks with CB-Top. Landstill is more resilient, a lot slower, but has much more card advantage.

I was building a Landstill variant with 2 Intuition, 1 Loam, and the pros is that I can get Ruins/EE lock on turn 4 consistently and also has the potential of a slow waste-lock, which is a pro, but the deck itself dies out of win-con, especially if you dredged them in. ITF plays much more differently, with Daze, CB, much like a more control-version of Thresh. If Landstill ran Goyf, then I will switch to ITF, but I like how Landstill plays, surviving for T1-3, hitting lands and playing game winning spells on T4.

@mossivo1986
Unlike you, my momma don't dress me no more. =PPP

Yeah, I agree that Spell Snare is a 3-4-of. I don't think I ever questioned that, it's just that some people keep it in their sideboard; I run 3 maindeck right now. Considering making room for a fourth.

Well... when people Daze me with one U open, I typically pay one rather than use Spell Snare. xD (I'm just messing with your word choice; I can infer that you mean using it on turn two instead of Counterspell to avoid Daze.)

I like Vendillion Clique too. It's disruption, scouting, and a hitter with evasion, all rolled up in one.

@ultimoman
It's hard to misuse Vendillion Clique. I mean, even against a deck like RG Zoo, you can chump him against a Kird Ape like any Lightning Bolt.

@lavafrogg
Isn't the maindeck Krosan Grip AND Pithing Needle a bit overdone? I mean, keep the Grips, but the Needle isn't always too useful without scouting their hand or deck.

@Elf_Ascetic
He was just joking about my momma (...I think).

Vendillion Clique's primary advantages are: 1) It disrupts combos or engines such as Solidarity or Life From the Loam; 2) It lets you scout the enemy's hand, as knowing what your enemy is capable of is key for control (in fact, many people would actually counter your Vendillion Clique); 3) It allows you to keep your mana open on turns 3-6 for the Fact or Fiction or Cunning Wish or to use permission or removal, yet still lets you place a threat on the board at the end of the opponent's turn. I would think disruption, scouting, and chipping at an opponent's life total are rather good uses.

Goblins typically aren't at the top of the list for most people here. My metagame is aggro heavy though, hence 4 Swords, 2 Path, and 2 Humility maindeck and 2 Path and 4 Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard.

@rockout
There's nothing wrong with Fact or Fictioning into 4 lands and a Brainstorm. That's 5 less potentially dead cards to worry about. Plus, land drops are never a minus. Well... unless you're control-starved.

@crz87
I don't find Zoo that threatening, actually. Then again... I run 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 2 Path to Exile in my sideboard (the other 2 Paths are maindeck). Yeah... I deal with a lot of aggro. =\

@LostButSeeking
It's hard to run a non-traditional UWb build without at least 6 fetchlands. =\

You can use Crucible of Worlds maindeck to recur dead Mishra's Factories. But I rarely do. I only side them in against land destruction.

I don't like Ponder in this deck either. The sorcery speed is the problem. If you are drawing, you want to keep that U open for the Spell Snare, yet you also want to be able to set up your early game draw or, if you have a fetchland, shuffle your deck.

Rockout- I know you guys have played ponder before and apparently you did not like them but your decks are in the 4cc I win mindset. This deck does not have that luxury of the bombs that your deck has. My list is much more streamlined and in many cases I have found Ponder to be better than brainstorm and both of them better than top.

Oh no... someone said something bad about top... the sacred cow is angry...Landstill is a slow deck. Top is a slow card, a slow mana intensive card. I do understand that if gives you a hypothetical +3 to hand size but when two of those cards sit in your hypothetical hand waiting to be shuffled away life is not good. I would rather ponder and find an answer. Ponder is a really good card, but playstyles differ. I added them when I cut fact or fictions a while ago. (and the shuffle effects are needed when I cut fetchlands to stablize my mana base).

About plainswalkers, I know everyone has heralded them to be the best cards for this deck but they force you to play wrath and humility or some rediculous amount of spot removal to keep your game winning buddies alive. I have seen lists with 4 swords, 4 vindicates and 3 wraths plus humility to deal with creatures. When does protecting a plainswalker go too far. It seems that these neigh indestructable heros can be destroyed by the most common form of damage, combat. Meaning, they are dead draws if you do not have control of the game.

I agree that playing a plainswalker makes life alot easier when you are winning but color screw has become extremely rampant is the developing lists. With 4 Mishras/4 Wastelands and playing around wasteland/stife getting UU/WW is difficult. In my opinion you guys have been playing cards that have forced you to make your decks worse. Ideally they should be amazing but the world of legacy is very interactive and mana disruption is where it starts.

When playing my deck, my mindset changes from playing traditional landstill, you know what you have to do. You covet your force of wills, save your plows for things you cant EE and spell snare anything relevant. You have to think about what your deck can and cannot do and use the deck filtering suite to find relevant answers and then set yourself up to win. Be is a huge decree, a recurring dragon or mishra stompy.

I have always played the deck standstill to standstill, trying to maximize options while minimizing the cards I use. It is really a different deck and is alot of fun to play.

In my testing, merfolk is easier as are counterbalance decks. Mainboard answers to Vial really do help. The problems occur when you fall far behind, because you do not have the humility/wrath to save your ass, you have to get fancy with EE/swords or be awesome with a decree of justice. Your outs are there, you just have to find them.

Its bad revealing 4 lands and a BS off fof when I have 2 lands in hand and getting my face smashed by double goyf and the next card I draw is spell snare. I remember one case in particular where I had 8 lands in play, 2 in hand and revealed 4 lands and a BS. Sad times had by all.

Taishaku- Short answer-no
Long answer- Pithing needle is not just for artifacts or enchantments, it is for wastelands, grim lavamancers, cyclelands, fetchlands, barbarian rings, mutavaults, ports// aether vials, jittes, senseis divining tops, ie cards that give landstill fits when they get on the board and start working. The benifit is that you can play it after they play the card to post "counter".

The grips are there for a seperate reason ie they are friggen awesome in 99% of magic games. The metagame right now has alot of artifacts and enchantments and sometimes they just need to die, and you dont want to have to wory about having counter back up so krosan grip fits perfect.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Its bad revealing 4 lands and a BS off fof when I have 2 lands in hand and getting my face smashed by double goyf and the next card I draw is spell snare. I remember one case in particular where I had 8 lands in play, 2 in hand and revealed 4 lands and a BS. Sad times had by all.

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better than drawing the 4 lands in a row though isnt it.

I'm going to participate in a big (well, in term of prizes) invitational this week and I'm going to play Landstill. Because its invitational the metagame is less random and more predictable. So far it looks like these deck are probably in:

UGR Tempo Thresh
UWb Landstill
BGW Rock
MonoG Progenitus Survival
MonoU Merfolks
Team America
B/x Tombstalker+Top+Discard shell (sometimes aggro, sometimes controllish)
4c Gifts Control or RBG Goblins
Slivers
4c Counter Top
RG Sligh
4c Landstill
RG Sligh or Burn or Dragon Stompy
BG Train Wreck
RBG Goblins
Aggro Loam
RGBW Survival

How would you build deck for that metagame? Are you going to run any specific cards maindeck? What sideboard you'd run there?

Random Wasteland vs Dustbowl fact: I just had 6 games in a row end on MWS when I activated a dust bowl. Three against thresh varients, one against zoo, one against merfolk(under his standstill), one against stax...seems pretty good to me, btw for any watching the recent discussion I have needled, mutavault, vial, top, elspeth, and wasteland this afternoon.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Its bad revealing 4 lands and a BS off fof when I have 2 lands in hand and getting my face smashed by double goyf and the next card I draw is spell snare. I remember one case in particular where I had 8 lands in play, 2 in hand and revealed 4 lands and a BS. Sad times had by all.

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The FoF cleared a land block for you and presumably you took the singleton Brainstorm and had instant access to the next 3 cards in your deck, right? If all of those were also lousy (as Spell Snare was) then you got beat by a terrible run of cards, which happens now and then in any control oriented deck that runs 16 to 18 mana lands plus 7+ counters that don't effect the board.

There has to be a price paid somewhere for playing a highly reactive deck that spends a lot of time deflecting before it makes its move. I think you just paid it.

@lavafrogg (who was responding to rockout)
Lol. Are you kidding me? I'm in the "8cc, I win" mindset. xDDD And I still think Wrath of God is an excellent card.

Anyhow, you can use all the damn low mana cost cards you want, you won't win until later, so big bombs should not be a problem. In fact, I would say Ponder hurts your early game more than it helps.

Ponder would be comparable to SDT. If it was instant speed and re-useable. -_-"

That's because if you protect a Planeswalker long enough, chances are, you will win. Anyhow, an Elspeth can defend herself for the most part, and you.

Not everyone runs 4/4 Factory/Wasteland. Most do a mix of 6. This thread has discussed how UWb Landstill should react to a growing number of black cards in use; the consensus thus far is to try to eliminate the need for early UU. I do not suffer from this problem because my two green mana producers are only there for Krosan Grip and the Engineered Explosives.

And mana screwing people with one-for-ones is not an effective strategy. Merfolk, perhaps the most popular aggro deck out there, does not even need to run nonbasics other than Mutavault.

I fail to see how your playstyle is any different from traditional Landstill. I play UWg and I still play conservatively with Force of Will, rely on Engineered Explosives to control tempo, keep Standstill up, and win with a big Decree of Justice.

Engineered Explosives is a maindeck answer to Vial. And everybody already runs it. Krosan Grip is NOT an answer. If you're drawing, by turn three, you'll be swarmed, and you don't have any Wrath of God to protect you. And there's no point in being "fancy." In MtG, you don't get points for style.

@rockout
LOL. Yeah, when you see two Tarmogoyf on the board, post-summoning sickness, you're already in bad shape. ><

@lavafrogg (who was responding to me)
Read my post. Where did I say Pithing Needle is for artifacts and enchantments? I didn't even mention artifacts and enchantments. I said that you're keeping these situational cards that require some degree of familiarity with your opponents' decks to work. Pithing Needles and Krosan Grip do nothing to stop a Wake Thrasher from...thrashing you or a Goblin Lackey dropping a Siege Gang Commander on you (maybe I am speaking from personal traumas here xD). Don't let utility get in the way of flexibility. And I notice that all of the threats you listed can be handled by another means.

That is why I said it is alright to keep two maindeck Krosan Grips. But the extra Pithing Needles are overkill. You are losing valuable board control or permission options.

@sauce
At that point, either would have killed him. He needed to see 3 Swords or a Wrath of God. xD

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

I'm going to participate in a big (well, in term of prizes) invitational this week and I'm going to play Landstill. Because its invitational the metagame is less random and more predictable. So far it looks like these deck are probably in:

UGR Tempo Thresh
UWb Landstill
BGW Rock
MonoG Progenitus Survival
MonoU Merfolks
Team America
B/x Tombstalker+Top+Discard shell (sometimes aggro, sometimes controllish)
4c Gifts Control or RBG Goblins
Slivers
4c Counter Top
RG Sligh
4c Landstill
RG Sligh or Burn or Dragon Stompy
BG Train Wreck
RBG Goblins
Aggro Loam
RGBW Survival

How would you build deck for that metagame? Are you going to run any specific cards maindeck? What sideboard you'd run there?

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I would run at least 2 wasteland, and consider MD Crucible. There are 6 decks in there that scoop to a wastelock. Crucible on its own comes in handy against the 3 control mirrors, and is not bad against The Rock, Tempo Thresh, Merfolk, Goblins and Loam. Certainly a card that wins you the day. :)
SB Plagues seem almost useless, but certainly run Ajani. I would consider to run a wishlist, 'cause Pulse wins RG Sligh, Burn, and Tempo Thresh. Wishing for Extirpate is not bad either. Of course, this set you back (seen from a Vindicatelist point) against the other Landstill decks and those Tombstalkers.

I like Lavafrogg's philosophy on the deck though I do disagree about ponder. Pithing needle seems very sensible to me, as does crucible. I'm working on a UBw build, a la:

(23) Land
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Swamp

(2) Creatures
2 Eternal Dragon

(35) Spells
2 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Standstill
2 Crucible
3 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Snuff Out
2 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

SB--
Discard,
More spot removal (probably 2 swords or 2 vindicate or a split),
Damnation,
Extirpate,
Negate,
Engineered Plague
(some mixture of these cards)

I think Snuff out is fucking awesome. IDK, maybe it's just a flavor of the month card for me, but I love it. It goes right around countertop and it's also easier to play around the cursecatcher/daze combo for bumping Lords. I realize its weaker in the sligh matchups, but my meta doesn't have too much of that anyways. The reason I'm not running a set is 'cause I'm afraid of tombstalkers and/or dark confidants.

Variations I'm thinking of and will probably play test tomorrow:

Dropping either CS or FoF for Damnation MB:
Probably one of the first things I'll test against goblins/zoo/merfolk/ etc. as much as I want to keep vanilla CS, i can see how it can be weak

Dragon vs Top or other Draw
Dragon gets me land when I need it. Top might get me land, for the same price; the difference can be quite clutch, but top's reusability comes in handy. The problem with Top is collateral: I have to needle it if the other dude is running it.
Alternatively, i could drop the two dragons for either another standstill and another FoF or another land, depending on my consistency is with drawing land. I'd put more draw spells to test here, but i can't think of any :confused:

Mainboard Duress or Thoughtseize:
I'd love to run Mainboard discard; that's one of the strengths to running black, and once again, CS or FoF (or both) are probably the spots that get the axe to run these main.

what do you think

@on the needle topic.

I dont think maindeck needle is the right choice.
It is too special, I would only run it in the board...
The only significient play is a needle on vial (merfolk, gobbo) or needle on wasteland (loam).
For the vial you have already EE and vs. loam a needle on wasteland does not shut off his engine. I think cunning wish is a way more flexible.
I agree that needle is very useful in some matchups, but I wont run it maindeck.

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btw for any watching the recent discussion I have needled, mutavault, vial, top, elspeth, and wasteland this afternoon.

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@Antonius
Cut the dragons for tops and please play the playset swords. I think UWb is still the right choice because of humility and elspeth.


I want to improve the current wishstill list.

For Reference, this is my list:

Uwb landstill

Deck (60)
1x Dust Bowl
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
2x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Flooded Strand
2x Plains
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
3x Island

1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Standstill
2x Humility
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Cunning Wish
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Decree of Justice
2x Wrath of God
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15)
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Engineered Plague
1x Circle of Protection: Red
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Return to Dust
2x Extirpate
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Path to Exile


Some comments:

First I want to give reasons for cunning wish.
On my last tournament I won two Game One's vs Zoo/aggro-burn because of wish for pulse. Furthermore you have graveyard removal (extirpate) preboard which is strong in the control mirror and vs loam etc.
And you can still go for wish->path to exile. Obviously this costs 3 more mana instead of playing additional path's main, but overall I think the given flexibility with wish is it worth playing.

The rest of the list is actually standard.
I like the CoW because there are many control decks in my meta and in these matchups CoW is just huge.

My problems with the list is:
1. I often missed the third EE mainboard, but dont know what to cut.
2. I think wrath is the weakest card maindeck, but on the otherside it can be great...
3. Tolaria West. It's not very good but its nice to fetch the EE (but maybe not needed when I would play 3) or a dust bowl in the control mirror.

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Originally Posted by Antonius

I like Lavafrogg's philosophy on the deck though I do disagree about ponder. Pithing needle seems very sensible to me, as does crucible.

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I get Pithing Needle. There are a LOT of decks that pithing needle just hoses. Turn 2, they lay down Shade, your turn two, lay down Factory and pithing needle the shade. Threat neutralized, without using a more general answer.

But I don't get two maindeck crucibles without waste. Do you face a lot of tempo thresh, team america, pox, dreadstill, wildfire or white stax? Otherwise I can't fathom it.

I have some other comments about your color choices, but I can't articulate them properly yet. I'll bring a pad of paper to lunch with me and will get back to you about it in the afternoon.

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Originally Posted by LostButSeeking

I get Pithing Needle. There are a LOT of decks that pithing needle just hoses. Turn 2, they lay down Shade, your turn two, lay down Factory and pithing needle the shade. Threat neutralized, without using a more general answer.

But I don't get two maindeck crucibles without waste. Do you face a lot of tempo thresh, team america, pox, dreadstill, wildfire or white stax? Otherwise I can't fathom it.

I have some other comments about your color choices, but I can't articulate them properly yet. I'll bring a pad of paper to lunch with me and will get back to you about it in the afternoon.

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I would run waste if I wasn't running Pithing needles. The point of running needles is to hose the other guy's wastelands while using dustbowl in the place of Wasteland. Sure, dustbowl is slower, but you're generally not going to get the Crucible + Wasteland combo out any earlier.
Same thing goes with top: I would run them if I didn't run needles, because I use needle as an answer to top.

I will say, after more thought, running black as the dominant off-color seems to have less advantages than I thought. The main advantage, IMO, would come from running Discard mainboard, and I'm not sure how viable thoughtseize/duress are for Landstill. The only other great thing black adds is Snuff--and snuff is only better than Swords in the Counterbalance matchup.

I do really like running vindicate, though.

Edit: I just remembered, one of the reasons why I thought of running black was because then I could use Pithing Needle against Flooded Strand in the mirror. Might not be a big deal, but if it comes out first turn, it might just turn the other guy's hand into something he wished he mulled

Pithing Needle is a very interesting inclusion. It stops Wastelands, Shades, Jitte, Mutavaults, Elspeths, Ajani, SDT, AEther Vial and such. Very interesting suggestion. Very. Especially since it can serve multiple functions. Heck, it's even golden against Aggro Loam; stopping Wasteland is a huge priority. This also let's your ramp up to 8 mana and drop DoJ for 2 Angels, or even stay in the game as Ajani pumps out an Avatar token. OHH, and it hits EE so your Avatar token can go all the fuckin' way. Fucking fantastic, am I right?

Only problem with Needle is that it isn't good against TES, but you lose to TES anyway. At least it hits Doomsday very hard.

Edit. Crucible of Worlds is fucking beast against Merfolk. Just wanted to point that out.

if only Pithing hit triggered abilities as well...loam, storm, ichorid, bridge... sigh

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Originally Posted by Antonius

if only Pithing hit triggered abilities as well...loam, storm, ichorid, bridge... sigh

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Dredge isn't a triggered ability, it is a replacement, and therefore could not be stifled or such.

I think too much of the recent discussion has been focused around land destruction. Sure you can win games with it occasionally, but it's usually not a very viable strategy. I run Wasteland to clear out opposing manlands and occasionally hope to keep an opponent of a color for a few turns. What does a deck like Landstill do with the tempo generated by setting your opponent back a few turns? Not much other than build up your own manabase. By the time you've hit their green source, they've already resolved Tarmogoyf and/or Top to find another green source if they need it. Winning the mana battle is only relevant with neutral board position, and almost every other deck in the format needs between 1-3 lands to apply pressure on a Landstill deck.

On Needle, it has great potential to be do some cute tricks, especially in the early game, but Landstill needs broad answers to a varied field of threats (see: Wrath of God). How's that Needle in your hand look when your opponent opens with Nacatl, Goyf, PoP&Bolt turns 1,2,3? You need as many ways to stabilize against fast opposing openings as possible (like Spell Snare and StP, for example), so you can get to the late game, draw tons of cards, control the board and win.

You want to maximize the probablility that you'll draw answers when you need them. This is done by a) drawing many cards, b) playing the most efficient answers, c) playing answers that can be applied in the most broad situations and/or d) playing multiple copies of those answers in your build.

Landstill doesn't win by keeping your opponent on lockdown like Stax or B2B-based MUC do. Rather, Landstill takes the bend-but-don't-break approach, where you answer your opponents threats with counters and removal and then play a stout finisher once your opponent has exhausted their resources. Controlling their manabase is not the game plan, as by the time you are in a position to do so (turn 4+), your opponent has already played their threats. In my opinion, mana denial is not a viable strategy for Landstill.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I think too much of the recent discussion has been focused around land destruction. Sure you can win games with it occasionally, but it's usually not a very viable strategy. I run Wasteland to clear out opposing manlands and occasionally hope to keep an opponent of a color for a few turns. What does a deck like Landstill do with the tempo generated by setting your opponent back a few turns? Not much other than build up your own manabase. By the time you've hit their green source, they've already resolved Tarmogoyf and/or Top to find another green source if they need it. Winning the mana battle is only relevant with neutral board position, and almost every other deck in the format needs between 1-3 lands to apply pressure on a Landstill deck.

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Land destruction is a viable strategy against decks like Survival, The Rock and such... but those decks are already good match ups.

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On Needle, it has great potential to be do some cute tricks, especially in the early game, but Landstill needs broad answers to a varied field of threats (see: Wrath of God). How's that Needle in your hand look when your opponent opens with Nacatl, Goyf, PoP&Bolt turns 1,2,3? You need as many ways to stabilize against fast opposing openings as possible (like Spell Snare and StP, for example), so you can get to the late game, draw tons of cards, control the board and win.

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Zoo and Sligh is already a bad match up. If we try and improve against that deck, it makes our other match ups much weaker. But we can concentrate on beating decks like Tempo Thresh, NLU, Merfolk, Aggro Loam and such and still have a good match up against other decks. Pithing Needle can be good. Especially since it gives us extra ways to protect from Wastelands, EE and AEther Vial.

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You want to maximize the probablility that you'll draw answers when you need them. This is done by a) drawing many cards, b) playing the most efficient answers, c) playing answers that can be applied in the most broad situations and/or d) playing multiple copies of those answers in your build.

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Amen. Although Needle isn't an answer, it can still be just as efficient. Better wasting your Needle on a Vial then an EE though.

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Landstill doesn't win by keeping your opponent on lockdown like Stax or B2B-based MUC do. Rather, Landstill takes the bend-but-don't-break approach, where you answer your opponents threats with counters and removal and then play a stout finisher once your opponent has exhausted their resources. Controlling their manabase is not the game plan, as by the time you are in a position to do so (turn 4+), your opponent has already played their threats. In my opinion, mana denial is not a viable strategy for Landstill.

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It wins the way Control decks were designed to win; by ending the game with immense card quality advantage and a stabilized mana base.