Both great articles. Could you give us an in depth analysis of Wear Vs Disenchant? I have basically changed my mind every time I've played the deck at this point, and could use some help on it.
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Both great articles. Could you give us an in depth analysis of Wear Vs Disenchant? I have basically changed my mind every time I've played the deck at this point, and could use some help on it.
@Einh: Great article. But what irritated me a little was the part with the D&T Matchup. You said the number one priority would be to handle the Vial and yet you board out Spellpierce and Force. My question is: Do you distinguish between "on the play" and "on the draw" when sideboarding? Because spellpierce seems to fit the plan of handling Vial, if you are on the play, pretty well. And why do you want Counterspell over Force when you could potentially counter a t1 Vial (especially on the draw)?
Thanks, guys!
@Disenchant over Wear/Tear:
Paulo mentions that he does not understand how I could play the "inferior" Disenchant, while he plays Wear/Tear. Well, first of all there are the well known advantages or Wear/Tear= Better Cb-curve-Card / can 2 for 1 and can be played for one mana less. On the other side there's the old topic of consistency and on-color cards that do practically the same. I was on the fence too, and during my testing period I had Wear/Tear. But I had something else, which seems to have slipped Paulos mind. I did not play a Mountain, had I played one, would I use Wear/Tear. Without a Basic Mountain I feel that the on-color consistency of Disenchant is more important than the marginal advantages, when taking into account that you have to fetch for Volcanic.
@DnT-MU:
I am sorry that I was unclear. Aether Vial is very important, but in order to make this boarding well balanced one Force of Will has to be cut. OtP you could def. keep the Spell Pierces over a 3rd FoW and the 3rd Counterspell, should you wish to do so - but I still won't do it. Why? Because 3 Force of Will, 2 EE and 1 Disenchant should be enough to handle one Aether Vial in a reasonable time. Plus this cards can be used otherwise in this MU too, obv. It's hard to find a target for Spell Pierce, maybe Midgame Skull/Cataclysm. Counterspell has the big upside of dealing with aether vial, should it come later, plus it catches all their nasty special cards they might bring - and once the midgame is reached without them having Vial Counterspell makes sure they feel fucking bad for playing white only - as simple moves like Counterspell, Snapcaster Counterspell will wreck them.
I hope I was a little more clear now. Shouldn't this be the case = keep asking until you feel like the question has been answered due to your liking.
Greetings
PV's a great player, he could have Top 8 with other decks, not necessarily Miracle. His article had good points, but Ein's article had More insights, just by the virtue that he worked on Miracle longer than PV. Between these 2 articles (or 2 from Ein and 1 from PV), I feel like that's sufficient material for a primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
@Einherjer
How often has the issue of 2-3 Miracle cards cluttering your opening hand come up?
----
Someone should make a computer program to play Miracles as fast and as perfectly as possible.
How often? Puhh, this depends on how much is "too often" for you, personally. I like to play at maximum 6 miraclespells (thats why you see 3 Terminus 1 verdict in most lists packing 3 Entreats) - and I felt comfortable with 6. Yes ofc sometimes you have to waste a Brainstorm to get rid of them, and sometimes you just don't have the Brainstorm and die with a hand full of Miracles - but that's the deck. I am not quite sure how I was supposed to answer this question, sorry :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Greetings
Meh. If you're floating Wear/Tear, then you have a Top, so it's basically just a 2 CMC that gives you the same grief that REB does against Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Too simple?
My analysis is like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I want to destroy an artifact: It'll cost me 2 mana using W/T or Disenchant. 1-1
I want to destroy an Enchantment: W/T costs 1 mana, Disenchant costs 2. 2-1
I want to float a 2 to Counterbalance: 3-2
I want to float a 1 to Counterbalance: 4-2
Disenchant comes in Summer Magic, Alpha, and Beta: 4-4
W/T comes in Russian: 5-4
I think since it flips as 1 and 2 to Counterbalance, I'd rather have the W/T. If I want to destroy only an Enchantment, it's also one mana cheaper. If I NEED to dodge an opposing Counterbalance, I can Fuse to make it 3. Disenchant doesn't rely on red mana to do either, which is what I think the major concern is. I think overall, even with Summer Disenchants available, you've got to go with W/T if you're on the red plan.
I liked and disliked PV's article on Channel Fireball. The reasons:
1) 3/1 Terminus/Verdict split is fine. He doesn't address the fact that sometimes you need to hardcast your stuff if you can't Brainstorm/Top into a Terminus. The uncounterability vs. Spell Pierce range isn't REALLY the issue here. Plus, as someone suggested, you don't want to run 7 Miracles if you're running Entreat x3.
2) He says Entreat x3 is wrong. I disagree. I want to see that card all day, everyday. Even if it's just for small value Entreats on turns 3-5, the card is great. 3 might be too many in the maindeck, but overall, I think it's fine.
3) There's no sideboard against us, I disagree. I definitely don't want to see Teegs, Grip, Needles, EE/Deed, etc.
His tips at the end were quite useful for people who haven't played the deck much and were looking to get into it.
Canonist is both good and bad in a mirror situation. Sure, you counter all of their stuff, but it also means you're fighting through their counters on your turn as well, but I have liked Canonist against Storm and Sneak and such.
-Matt
The bottom line is how urgent do you need to Wear something? If you have the need to wear something ASAP, you need the consistency to produce red Mana, wear//tear just doesn't give you that consistency since you're vulnerable to Wastes. Adding a Mountain does not worth the SB slot, in my opinion. As to the cheaper Enchantment thing, what are the evil enchantments you need to get rid of ASAP? Sneak Attack? Omni? Choke? Blood Moon? For the first 2, it's too late anyway. For the Later 2, probably won't make a difference as long as you have one basic plains in play. Overall, I would go with Ein's Disenchant choice, not flashy but solid, as reliable as basic lands, it's Not inferior suggested by PV at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Verdict flips for 4 And it pitches to FoW, his assessment is kinda... meh~.
His assessment on EtA is skewed because he plays SFM package. Sure you can have both, but you don't want 3 EtA if you also run SFM.
I don't think that's what he means. He's saying that people don't go into a sizable tournament preparing SB specifically for Miracle. They might prepare for Blades and TNN, but not for EtA and/or Terminus.
I played W/T in the past, but after Philips success made me think about it more, I think disenchant is the right choice, as well as not running a basic mountain.
The W/T costing 1 and 2 is cute but it the situations where that comes up AND actually matters is probably like 1 in 200 games. Using both modes of the W/T also only comes up in like 1 of 200 games, usually against something like painter. Tear costing 1 probably matters even less, maybe in the enchantress matchup or against sylvan library decks? In all other situations Disenchant is better.
Basic artifact and enchantment hate are all people are really running, and it's normally just efficient, low impact 1-for-1's. I think that what he meant, whereas other decks have to contend with actual hate cards like Humility or Engineered Plague that hose their deck. That being said, I would consider cards like Winter Orb or Choke to be Miracles hate cards that we have to deal with or likely lose, so maybe his assessment was premature. Javier had this style of card, and more people may start adopting actual hate cards. I just had a guy side in a Nether Void, of all things, out of BUG Delver last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Hi guys, yesterday I played pretty much the stock list with Stoneforge package in sb (very similar to Philipp's list, only [-1 Stp, -1 Terminus, -1 Tundra, -1 CB] [+1 Jtms +1 Supreme Verdict +1 Island, +1 EtA] ) I won all the swiss rounds (2-1 vs Mono red Sneak Attack, 2-1 vs UR Burn, 2-1 vs UW Blade, 2-1 vs Elves!, 2-1 vs Imperial Painter) But I lost to 1-2 to Goblins in the quarterfinals. Mind you, I'm no Miracles pro and he's one of the (if not the) best Goblin pilot in Italy, but I'd like to know from more experienced players what you usually take out and in in this matchup. My sideboard was:
3 REB
3 RiP
2 Wear/ Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
I went -4 Force, -2 Pierce. +2 SFM +1 BSkull, +1 Sulfur Elemental +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Wear Tear.
My experience versus goblin is that IF (and it's a big if) the Goblin player is really competent with the deck, the matchup becomes really difficult. They don't really need a lot of creatures to put pressure on you (usually Piledriver +1 Goblin is more than enough) and they can rebuild a board presence extremely fast due to Vial and Matron/ Ringleader. Our only out is to grind out until you trigger multiple mid game Terminus/Supreme Verdict, then find a fast EtA immediately (which is the best plan versus any other swarm aggro deck, but against Goblins is mandatory and if you fail to find EtA during the small timeframe you have available, it's GG).
Do you have any detailed experience/info regarding this matchup?
I play against a LOT of Painter, so I've had to run 2 W/T in the board. That deck can be really annoying...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
-Matt
I've actually found the goblins matchup to be near unwinnable if the pilot is skilled and I am not running 1 E tutor and moat in the 75. Without moat the only time I have ever beat goblins is if I get the perfect set up and survive long enough to terminus during combat, and then immediately untap, replay top and then entreat in next combat phase for x<2. Basically all of your counters are dead and they usually refill immediately after board wipes and just play more guys with haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
However, if moat is your 75 the matchup is a near unloseable. Cast moat, and if needed stps siege gang or prospecter/sharpshooter and you win.
I imagine having SFM actually makes the matchup much better, I have never tried her in miracles though. Batterskull is hard for them to beat.
My binder of white value waves hello!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J...4/IMAG1192.jpg
That's why they now run at least 2 Tarfire md, in addition to 3-4 cyclers and Tin Street Hooligan...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
But thanks for the heads up on Moat, I might give it a try again. I guess 1 of md with 1 E-tutor right?
These are Dangerous Dangerous Assumptions. It's unfair to discuss this without a Goblin list. How "White" is this competent Goblin player? Many Goblins are splashing White for Thalia, some even go as far as Thalia And Spirit of Labyrinth. Take James Miller SCG: Atlanta on March 2014 as example, it definitely has Grip against Moat/Humility. Even if SFM's in play, Goblin can still block Batterskull and sac before damage using Seige-gang. Even without Miller's list, it's still possible for them to have Pyrokinesis on SFM or Anarchy for anything White.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I've played a lot with 1 Moat MD and the E Tutor in the SB and with both in the SB. I liked them both in the SB better. Moat is better than verdict against decks like Jund, elves, fish, shardless BUG and goblins, but against the majority of decks verdict is better and it kind occupies a similar role in the deck. So I personally do 1-3 verdict/terminus MD and then if I want, moat I leave it in the SB. Honestly though, I think it is a meta call. I wouldn't run moat at like an SCG open, but at a smaller local place where one of the best players in the room is always on goblins, it might be a good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Also, with the Etutor in the SB. I don't go crazy running like 10 targets for it. Its basically just RIP #3 against dedicated GY decks, that also happens to be moat #2 against decks were I want moat and can get a top/CB against stuff like storm.
EDIT: You both are right about SFM. I was basing my assessment of the card off it's performance in esper stoneblade, were its not a huge deal if they kill the mystic and you can also get jitte.
Yeah my metagame is flooded with Goblins and Elves right now so that is certainly a good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Damn, foiled again. It's a tie, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
-Matt
Great article again Einherjer, although I'm a little fuzzy on your D&T SB.
I'm unsure why you'd rather have the 3 FoW rather than the 3 Counterbalance. You have 3 Counterspells, 2 Cliques, and potentially Counterbalance (with 3-4 4cmcs) to deal with Cataclysm. You have 1 Disenchant and 2 EEs to deal with t1 Aether Vial and a lot of ways to deal with it coming down later. I could see cutting like a Jace and one of the Counterbalances on the play so you could keep Spell Pierce, but FoW just feels pretty bad (especially on the play).Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
... oh, and 7th edition Foil Disenchant obviously trumps any foreign Wear//Tears.
http://s28.postimg.org/u5935p1m5/image.jpg
My list
22 LANDS
5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
2 CREATURES
2 Vendilion Clique
21 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
15 OTHER SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Detention Sphere
SIDEBOARD
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft (against combo)
1 wear/tear
1 Humility
2 flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
Isn't geist a little too slow against combo? I mean even slower Combodecks such as ANT opt to kill you on turn 4 and i doubt that you want to tap out on turn 3 for something that doesn't affect his combo. Combo rarely needs the ad nauseam to win anyways.
Have you tested Energy field main? ( you might want to add another RIP than though)
Geist is faster than tnn, if you compare the two. However, NO, NO miracle runs geist, just NO. If you want to run combo Hate bear, you should run either Canonist or Meddling Mage.
As to Rip-Helm, it's the weakest build. That list has 2 creatures to pressure opponent's Liliana or Jace. EF is not the direction you want to go. If you insist on doing Enlightened Tutor, you might as well copy BBD's build with Thopter and Blade.
Rip-Helm isn't weaker; it's less forgiving. I played it with 2 Clique and a Thassa to some success. A hardline control deck with an incredibly low amount of win conditions, and then a Helm of Obedience combo to end the game is not a bad strategy, especially if your meta is filled with Giant Dudes.dek. Stealing Griselbrands instead of comboing and playing a better counter game than anyone else is powerful. Especially when you can do it at Instant Speed.
EDIT: It's also a meta choice with regards to what is actually going on. My current build is quite soft to Chalice for example, way moreso than old variants. That's partly why I play 4 Jace. If your meta is soft to hard style control decks with thinks like Jund and non-True-Name Blade decks (which consists of like one deck now) then you'll do well. With True-Blade you might struggle as your Terminuses are less reliable.
I always wrote the card off as just plain bad, but Teferi's Response? The Tsabo's Web Paulo ran against Death and Taxes made me reconsider the card. It doesn't cantrip, but the only deck you run these cards against is Death and Taxes, and that deck is the best performing on MODO, currently. It's not like it'll take long before Death and Taxes wastes, or even better, ports you.
Tsabo's Web stays in play. You get to Wasteland your opponent for 2-mana, and that's not what we're after. We want a repeatable/continuous effect, which is why Blood Moon and Back to Basics see play.
You also draw 2 cards.
You're forgetting that web isn't mostly there for rishadan port or wasteland. It's there to stop Karakas from infinitely bouncing a Thalia or Brimaz or Mangara (if they run it). The main way you lose against Death and Taxes is if they get a legendary threat with a Karakas to protect it. Especially if they have vial to keep replaying.
Yeah, I remembered Karakas earlier, but didn't bother with another post. I'd say that makes the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I suppose this might not be the appropriate thread, then again it's probably less off-topic than most of these posts... But does anyone have any MTGO Miracles staples (Jace and Clique in particular) that they'd be interested in trading for real cards? I have a ton of Legacy staples that I'm not really using and I'd feel less guilty about trading for MTGO cards than buying them. lol Just message me if anyone is interested. Anyways, this thread could use a bump, everyone seems to be laying low lately.
Oh, and also, this isn't really the distinction that I'd make. It's not so much about forgiveness or power level, if anything an insta-win is more powerful. I think the better distinction is that RIP builds have higher varience than straight Miracle builds. RIP is either amazing or worthless. Helm either wins on the spot or rots in your hand. In the day and age where many people are cutting down to three Plows, I don't know that RIP-nuke-your-goyf! is something that is high priority in the meta right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
imo the reason for this is that the core of Miracles has not only been settled, but also expanded to about 52-56 cards in the MD. Despite funky MD blasts there haven't been any innovations going on lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
SB tech is a different story though and I feel there is still some room for fruitful ponderings, though at the end of the day there is no right or wrong, as it comes down to personal preference and local meta calls.
As a side note, this is what I'm rocking atm (straight UW):
3 RiP
1 Pithing Needle
1 Canonist
2 Clique's (1 in the MD)
2 Pierce (2 in the MD)
3 Fluster Storm
1 Terminus (3 Terminus / 1 S. Verdict in the MD)
1 S. Verdict
1 Disenchant (1 EE, 1 UA in the MD)
2-3 new cards like Unexpectedly Absent are decent but far from changing the deck's playstyle and thus spark little discussion.
I could definitely see a lot of benefits in dissecting very specific scenarios and discuss the right choices, something which hasn't happened too much on the past 200 something pages.
Let's give it a shot!
...
G1 against an unknown opponent. You're on the play having kept this hand:
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Top
2 STP
1 Pierce
1 Terminus
(I know - pretty decent..)
Q1: Are you going to play Top or go "Island, go"?
Q2: What if you're on the draw and your opponent went "Arid Mesa, go."?
Q3: Would you keep this if Top was another Plains?
Q4: Against an unknown opponent, what card would you like draw next?
Q5: Would you keep this hand if your opponent was on ANT?
Qx: What scenario did you come across recently that you'd like to share and discuss?
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Most likely Top since I'm more afraid of being Dazed/Pierced than I am of being killed on t1. Likewise, if they go Swamp -> Discard then I'll simply be protecting my Top with Pierce regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
This is a little trickier. I'd say that in order of likelihood, you're playing against Goblins, American Delver, or Miracles. Getting Dazed or Pierced here might be enough of a concern where I'd want to be able to protect my Top next turn (since Top is really the only thing holding this hand together).Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Against an unknown you'd probably have to, but without manipulation, this hand has a lot of potential to do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Probably a fetchland or Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
No. Three dead cards is a lot. A topdecked Counterspell or Counterbalance is uncastable and a topdecked FoW still likely leaves you with the same amount of protection (you'd have to spin and find a Blue card to pitch).Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I might be playing this tomorrow at SCG Seattle, but I hate playing against BGx. Either I have really bad luck, or the other board isn't great against it. We'll see what happens.
-Matt
What does your SB look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
First, on the SB I feel like 3 RIP is excessive. I would always run an enlightened tutor before the 3rd RIP just to have a bit more flexibility.
Some good questions. I was thinking that at sometime we should to some game theory for the deck.
Q1: Definitely play top. It's your best card in basically every matchup. The odds of your seeing an opposing counterspell after their turn 1 is significantly higher than you first playing a deck that can kill you turn one and secondly drawing an opener that actually does it.
Q2: You can't play top here, as much as you want to. It's the most powerful card in that hand and you really need to see it resolved. The arid mesa with no first turn plays very likely is hinting at a deck with blue, either Miracles or UWR delver (I think Goblins is very unlikely). Plus, the opponent isn't presenting any pressure or a reason for you play top to start finding cards quite yet.
Q3: While I don't enjoy this hand with a plains because it really has no value cards, I think this is reasonable. You have answers vs. creatures and spells, plus a stable mana base. While I like my openers to have at least one value card (and no miracles), I think the average mulligan is scarier than this.
Q4: First I would love to see a fetchland. That gets me my third land + I get to see three extra cards with top.
Q5: I think you have to mulligan this hand because it doesn't have double blue and also doesn't have another blue card. against ANT you're basically on a mull to 4 anyway with that hand, so I think you can find something better.
In other news, I'm probably going to be moving to a UW stoneblade/miracles hybrid list because I really want to play with Mishra's Factories right now.
Playing colorless sources seems really scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
There's a separate thread for Blade control, you don't need to post here then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
If you look at BBD's Thopter blade or Oarsman's Legend Miracle or Ein's Snapcaster-centric Miracle, none of them use Mishra's Factory. The only logical deck that uses Mishra is BUG Landstill. Therefore, that land should not be the reason for you to want to play Blade version. Blade and Mishra aren't even related. Like what BBD said on his deck tech, the only reason to run Blade is you have some unexplainable hate against Entreat.
So it looks like BBD brought Thopters back..? It seems alright I suppose, but I have trouble thinking of the advantages it gives over more streamline builds. Either way, there's a whole lot of Miracles in the Top 16. It definitely seems worth it to prepare for the mirror.
BBD had zero Entreat one PreordainQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Adam Ruprecht had one Entreat zero Preordain
Everything else is equally awkward.
Adam's match against Deathblade in the Top 8 took 81 minutes, I lost interested at one point when Choke resolved.
Side note, Brent Traut mentioned he chose Lossett Miracles [U/W/R Miracles] in his Top 8 profile, and he did. He had the most up-to-date identical 75 Lossett streamed with and ran with. Not surprised if he knows Joe personally. Congrats to Brent's Top 8 finish, if he posts on source as well.