I'm bad with rules and I'm just curious about this situation:
I have a Mirage Mirror in play. I use it to copy a Thespian's Stage and then activate it to copy a Forest. What happens?
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I'm bad with rules and I'm just curious about this situation:
I have a Mirage Mirror in play. I use it to copy a Thespian's Stage and then activate it to copy a Forest. What happens?
Should just be a Forest with the Stage ability, and end of turn the delayed trigger is put on the stack and the Mirror Forest turns back into a regular mirror.
Lormador - Is there somewhere online you have this list? I'm intrigued.
I deserve no credit for this list, I just take Sparkii's lists and tweak a few cards here and there to suit my tastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by juzamjimjams
// 60 Maindeck
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
// 15 Sideboard
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Tomb
Hi guys, I was following this tread for awile but just made an account to be able to ask questions and share my personal experiences with the deck. I've been playing Lands since its only wincondition was creeping tar pit. Had a couple of deep day 2 runs at GP's with different versions of the deck (RG,RUG, splashing white) and recently picked up the deck online and managed to 5-0 a League last week under the name Noloam ;)
Here some sideboard cards that impressed me lately:
-Zuran Orb:really strong against UR delver and Burn to make PoP way less painfull, but also won me games Vs Ant
-Trinisphere: I played literally hundreds of games against Ant as a good friend of mine played the deck for years. I tested multiple sideboard configurations with various numbers of chalices, spheres and Thorns, but the matchup remained a very hard one. I recently cut the last chalice from the board and remplaced it with Trinisphere. Since then my winpercentage in sideboard games increased significantly.
-Drop of Honey: I unfortunately don't own one in RL but playing this card online certainly made the difference in games Vs DnT and DRS decks
Maybe switch Ancient Tomb with Mirror is a better Ideia. Thanks for the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
I am very comfortable with 3 fetch lands, since the is RG. And I prefer 3 draw lands because Surgical Extraction, because it is currently on most sidedecksQuote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
But thanks for the help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Thanks boss. Has the splash felt worth it so far?
Made it three weeks in a row at my local weekly Legacy event last night. Still undefeated with the deck (8-0 with 3 ID's to split first) and didn't even drop a game last night.
Round 1 vs Blue/something control:
Nothing much to say about this match. Got quick tokens both games. I literally only saw Baral, Brainstorm and Force of Will from his deck. Easy win.
1-0, 2-0
Round 2 vs Jeskai Stoneblade:
Game 1 I got an early token which ate a Plow so I went to 40 life. A Maze of Ith kept his Batterskull at bay until I was able to Loam back the combo pieces and win. Game 2 was much of the same, except this time he didn't have a Plow.
2-0, 2-0
Round 3 vs Grixis Delver:
Game 1 was super close. He got me down to 1 w/Delver, Pyromancer and tokens, but I was able to stay alive with multiple Maze of Iths, P. Fire/Barbarian Ring killing off his guys every turn and Loaming until I could find the combo pieces. Game 2, he had Force of Will for my Molten Vortex and Gamble. He has 3 Deathrite Shamans in play, but I'm able to Wasteland him down to zero lands and play a Trinisphere to buy some time. Luckily, my next two draws are Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths, so I'm able to combo from there.
3-0, 2-0
Round 4 ID w/Burn
Deck is still fantastic! I definitely need more practice w/how to sideboard. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Nice!! Decklist? ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by TLK
// 60 MaindeckQuote:
Originally Posted by caprino
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
// 15 Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Drop of Honey
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Trinipshere
1 Zuran Orb
Not sure about the sideboard, but that's mostly because I'm not too confident on how to side in/out with the deck yet.
I'm working on a google doc sideboarding plan, but it's currently not being complete and still need more improvement / correction. If any one is interested to help, I share the "doc in progress" by PM (but I'm still busy these time with my kids), so it mights take few days).Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
I would definitely be interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
I like the main deck, but your sideboard have 16 cards. I think you list one more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Whoops, sorry. 2 K. Grip, not 3. Still undecided on Ghost Quarter vs Rishadan Port.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimignon
I have similar problems. Want to include more than I have slots left for.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
I want a control-build, so I decided for RUG and Ports.
Then, GQ became better and slow components of RUG had to be replaced.
I'm now at 3ports 2GQ, but want to go back to the full 4ports (it took long to get them... One of the reasons); but don't want to cut a GQ. Finally, I cut mana-lands for ability lands with the risk to not get the needed mana. I don't know what to do. Don't wanna cut blue or EE or CoW. I'm already at 61 cards.
I've thought about cutting the maindeck Karakas for a Port and perhaps shaving a GQ to add a second Port. I seem to side Karakas out in every match (I think there's one S&T deck in my meta, so I'd probably move it to the side).
I wanted as much land-answers as possible in the main, that's why Karakas is still there. But you're right, I could put it in the side... If I could find a slot...Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Played in the Legacy Daily at GP Toronto yesterday -- 4 round event. Went 2-1-1, splitting in round 4 cuz my opponent wanted to go eat dinner. Beat Grixis Delver 2-0, won the mirror 2-1, lost to Infect 0-2. Hoping to go back tomorrow and play some more
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@ TLK and OSM: I'm on 4 GQ, lot of greedy manabases in my meta. Unless your meta is filled with combo (SnT, Storm-based) I feel like GQ is the better choice. About Karakas: it's been in my sb for almost a year now. It will stay there for the time being.
@ grmpytopdecker: Congrats! How did you find the mirror-, and Infect-MU?
I don't recommend running 1 or 2 Ports. Ports are best in the earlier turns, and in multiples. A lone Port drawn later isn't as good, and you'll get that too often with 1 or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
If you want to run Ports (meta-call), make space for at least 3. Cut the Karakas and 2 or 3 GQs for a 3:2 or 4:1 split.
Port and Karakas are some of my favorite cards in the deck, and I love even just talking about them. I'll start with Port.
Awhile ago I made as thorough a "+/-" list as I could for Port and Ghost Quarter, but I don't feel much like digging it out. The exercise is probably better if done by the pilot considering the question and the context of the particular metagame and sideboard we're playing in.
For my money (literally because Port is more expensive than it should be imho), Port gets the nod. I play RUG, a very light splash with one Trop and 2 EE in the deck, and everything else straight RG. It was hard for me to hang up my Intuitions, though I was happy to get rid of Tolaria West due to how slow it is. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
Rishadan Port goes up in value if a couple of things are going on. First, it's better if your board is equipped with sphere effects. The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands, and 3 is barely even thinkable.... so Port offers no help and GQ doesn't really interact with either plan.
Rishadan Port gets a bit of value added to it if you're going to be playing against Sneaky Show or Miracles more than Delver and friends (or other decks where it's a Strip Mine, too many to list). Against Miracles now I'm almost beyond caring, since Jace falls to the fires without much trouble now that Counterbalance doesn't protect him. Sneaky Show is going to remain a bad matchup (not a little bad, ultra bad) so that almost doesn't matter, either.
These are pretty minor. In my view, the real reason to play Port is if you're playing Engineered Explosives. EE is so mana hungry that you need to be building up a base for awhile in order to get 3 counters on it and crack it immediately: so that's 5. Eight if you want to recur it immediately, so 5 minimum if you only want to crack it on 1 counter. These mana-hungry plays aren't easy to make if your GQs are in the grave vs. Ports that are on the field.
Port copies better with Stage, which is a good reason to run it. GQ isn't as good in that scenario.
The most ruthless (if a bit corner) use of Rishadan Port is to tap an opponent's Island into a Choke. I have renewed my love for Choke and am playing the card, my single Tropical Island be damned.
Karakas I don't think makes the cut for a sideboard card. It hits opposing Marit Lage tokens, Thalia, rarely Emrakul... I don't see the value for it anymore, though it does make the mirror far more convenient. It doesn't produce the right color of mana. I have cut Karakas and have not missed the card. I think the "card drawing" lands (Canopy, Tranquil, Sheltered) are all better than that right now. We don't need to care about Thalia (burn her with fire) like other control decks do.
Does anyone have any Mirror results at this time? I'd like to try the card, but actually I'm starting to come out against CMC 3 spells in the deck as I am very often Exploding that number. Choke is an exception!
vs Storm, CotV on 2 cuts them off Recall or Echoing Truth, thus protecting the Chalices on 0 & 1. I've done this before - they scoop.Quote:
The more sphere effects, and the less CotV you play, the better Port will bring. Port doesn't help Chalice cut anything off, and Chalice@2 is probably never ever going to get cast out of Lands...
More on point, Port does have synergy with Chalice.
Chalice on 1 has a similar effect as Sphere, in that the opponent needs 2 mana to cast anything. Ports can slow them off of that (and give you time to find more denial and/or the combo).
Otherwise, excellent post!
Anybody know what David Longs list looks like atm? I'm watching the SCG tour and they mentioned that hes playing main board burning with, and It sounds very interesting.
3 Lands in the top 8 of the team constructed SCG this weekend! Also, 3 in the top 16 of the classic, one of which splashes black for Decay and Thoughtseize. Good time for lands!
Also, David Longs list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=115059
Very interesting Burning Wish package he went with.
I have played a lot of the mirror, there is a very good Lands player at my LGS. I sideboard out some Depths and get on the Tracker + Bog loop plan. Works quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Infect I am less sure about. I think I am overboarding -- I brought in Spheres and KGrips and Grudge and sided out Mazes and some other stuff. Both Infect folks said Maze was the thing they worried the most about. Don't they play Vines to make their creatures hexproof?
Yesterday I went 2-2. no-show rnd 1, lost to Alluren round 2, punted against OmniShow g3 (could've made a token and survived an Emrakuhl attack but brain-locked and rotated for a Karakas) and beat Infect 2-0
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Interesting Wishplan, love the devastating dreams, but it only answers TNN along with Tabernacle, and TNN is about my biggest concern against fair decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
Maybe a blacksplash for Toxic Deluge, although it's quite demanding on the manabase (you always want green, need red for Wish, and Black for Deluge)?
In black there's also Last Rites (Kurt Spiess played this once long ago) against combo, a bit slow but probably the best anti-combo-sorcery considering a manacurve of 2 (Wish) into 3 (Rites).
I wouldn't board in spheres against infect, as we also want to play multiple effects a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker
Kgrips and Grudge are handy for the hate and you can always use them on Inkmoth too.
But why would you want to side out maze, as they need to deal combat damage?
Sure they can play Vines, but you could also respond to Vines with Pfire, or crop for Chasm.
Those are quite some angles for them to cover.
Speaking of TNN; what are people using as gameplans to beat it? Just combo faster? Keep them off lands? Some tech I'm missing? Or just relying on Drop of Honey?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
EEQuote:
Originally Posted by walked
TNN has never been a problem for me. Either he can't be cast to begin with because I'm all up in that manabase, or he lands before I get all up in that manabase and Tabernacle takes him down, or he does not deal enough damage before Marit Lage is decisive, or he gets stuck in a Glacial Chasm, or of course my favorite thing to do to him is blow him up along with all the other CMC 3 rubbish with Engineered Explosives.
I'd say it's probably more of an issue for straight RG with no U for EE (whoopee it's alphabet time today), but straight RG plays more combo cards and this switches one answer (killing it) for another (killing the other player). It is therefore unlikely to be much of an issue for either deck.
I'm really happy to be in a meta where the fair decks are trying to go bigger than each other and out-fair themselves because most of the cards they do that with are just embarrassing against Lands. TNN is a good problem to have.
I am going to put Blue down for a few weeks and try Wish. Mostly because the idea of casting a card like Dreams just makes me happy.
I'm thinking of putting blue away to try the RGb version (I've played lots of RUGb, but never straight RGb). I need 1 Decay, 1 Vortex, and 4 Thoughtseizes though (and I'm poor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Regarding Zac Dalton's list, I can't imagine splashing black without Nether Void. That card is just so good!
Nether Void is (was) great but seems too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
You'll probably never going to cast Nether Void. Great card, I had two but indeed too slow in most cases.
If we can land a CotV vs Storm (or resolve a Thoughtseize), we should buy enough time to play it. I guess it's better with Ports, which facilitate a higher curve than GQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
Storm has been ramping up on artifact hate lately, but they pretty much can't win through NV.
And it shuts down Omniscience if you put it in with S&T.
Storm and Omnitell haven't gotten any faster, so I don't see NV as being too slow compared to a year or two ago. I used to play it in RUGb, though. Maybe it's a poorer fit in RGb?
Edit - I really don't understand why everyone seems to think we need to be so much faster these days. Like Lormador says:
But at the same everyone seems to think T.West - an uncounterable tutor that finds EE, Zorb, CotV, or any land - is too slow. It's 3 mana and we have 8+ excellerants (and we can grind as well as anyone).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
The meta hasn't changed in needing more speed. There are multiple ways to play Lands, more combo-oriented or controlminded depending on the players mindset. It's one of the phrases of Jody Keith's decktech that stuck for me, that Lands can be tweaked in many different ways, depending on the players mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
But I do think that some exemplar players, Jody Keith in particular, are playing a more combominded game. Look at the maindeck Tomb. He also described Lands as combo-control for example. And not control-combo, as most of us would probably describe the deck. Might be coïncidence though.
I don't think it's the 3 mana that kills T West, it's the UU in the cost that must be paid at sorcery speed. That's pretty poor against DRS, and I think the UU necessitates double Tropical Island... and now we're looking at Intuition > Gamble. Either that, or we're going to have a tough manabase. I've tried playing several configurations of mana-producing lands to support bases featuring Intuition + Gamble and it's always been awkward at best.
Then I laid out all the tutors side by side and asked which ones I really wanted in my deck. The combotastic, no drawback Tinkeresque Crop Rotation is auto 4-of. Intuition + Tolaria West has this appeal of being able to find everything and solve any problem, but that cost of 3 means you are giving your opponent the opportunity to assemble whatever his deck does to stop that spell from resolving: up to and including just killing you before it can be cast. Counterspell, Daze, Spell Pierce, discard spells, tax effects, a fast Eldrazi beatdown, Tendrils of Agony, all are live against Intuition. Against the workaday Gamble, however, there's must so much less the other player can do. I'm very unlikely to be killed before I can resolve it, tax effects won't stop it, discard has to pluck it T1 on the play, and all the blue spells except Force of Will depend on having mana open or an Island in play. There is, furthermore, an extremely limited opportunity for cantrips to find these reduced answers for the card, whereas with Intuition you're letting the other player Ponder, Brainstorm, fetch, Ponder again before you put it on the stack.
I guess it's possible that Tolaria West is playable without Intuition, since it's the Intuition that I'm really against and not so much the tutor land. I suppose I'll test that out.
I am interested in possibly running Vendilion Clique out of the sideboard, in conjunction with MD Karakas. It seems like a reasonable configuration to offer against any control deck, or the mirror, and a legit way to take out a Leovold (who seems to love boldly attacking into open Maze of Ith and Punishing Fire just as though his 3 power butt were invincible). Far from dead against combo.... but slow of course. Not a bad card to respond to Show and Tell with.
I'm searching for a card that will really put the nail in the coffin against the new Miracles deck.... skilled players have been giving me some trouble. I don't want to go overboard and I don't want to play into their counterspell plan.... perhaps Crucible is the card I want.
Great post. It's what I wanted to say about Tolaria West and Intuition. I cut Intuition because of the reasons you mentioned plus it is a lost card when loamed away. Well, Gamble is lost as well but I wanna have Gamble in my first hand, Intuition not... And if I have to Intuition into Loam, Academy Ruins and an Artifact, it takes at least another turn until I get to play the Artifact etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Oh, and we all sided Intuition out 95% of the time.
So, when Intuition got cut, TW was the only reason to play so much Tropical Islands. Which feels strange. Counterbalance wasn't the big problem anymore, so having that uncounterable tutor wasn't that necessary... Still like TW. Suits well in a Lands deck (it IS a land); but... well... Its not really needed midgame to loamtutor the best cards. Normally you have your stuff done at that point.
So, that was Intuition and TW.
Nether Void: Again, it IS a great card if it hits the board. But same problem as described with Intuition. Opponent has more ways to answer it, you have to draw it, dead if loamed. That's what I meant it's too slow. Just the experience I had with Intuition.
I think a Trinisphere would be something in between. Good vs Omni or Storm etc.
I threw together an initial list designed to go hard on blue, running Vendilion Clique, 2 Trops, Intuition, Tolaria West, the whole show really... and I'd say it's a bust. Even taking into account the reduced power level that an experimental list is going to have compared to something close to a GP top 8 list, it's not where it needs to be.
Vendilion Clique did turn out to be pretty nice though, it's a shame the manabase just won't support it. Again though, the value of incremental damage is minimal when we're swinging with a 20/20. Maybe I'll just spend more time watching Jarvis Yu's channel and try to get better with the pure RG version of the deck. I think what's going on right now is that Jarvis is able to very precisely place the 20/20 in whatever gap exists in the opponent's defenses. When I play, it's not as precise, I wind up just generally collecting value and only go for the kill as either desperation or to finish off a totally helpless opponent. This winds up getting me into troublesome situations that I actually should have avoided with better play, and these are situations that Engineered Explosives gets me out of: explaining why I love EE in this deck and seem to win with it quite often.
EDIT: I'm still on my "are there creatures that are good in this deck?" mindset, and I came across Thrun, the Last Troll. The sell: if you're losing against Miracles, with a Jace on the field and counters up the wazoo on the other side, he actually can get you out of that hole. He can outfight a Batterskull, and is phenomenally hard to kill (especially with Karakas). So whereas a card like Choke is more of a crapshoot that you have to set up and resolve by applying pressure and using various bait spells, this on the other hand does not need any setup whatsoever (apart from getting enough mana). Furthermore, it'll be a surprise:a surprising a skilled player is a great way to beat them. Has anyone else tested this out, or am I alone here?
I've cast in before. It's lock piece number 7 for me, so I don't need it to be fast with it. It's a nail in the coffin because Storm has almost zero chance to answer it (worlds harder for them than 3Ball).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
The only reson I'm not running it lately is because I've cut black. I'd like to put it back in, but it's a lot of deck space if I'm sticking with EE...
Tolaria West is independent of Intuition. I've run it with 0, 1, 2, or 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I'm currently running 3/3 Gamble/CR, and 2 T.West.
It doesn't really matter that it's slow. It's there for the grindier matches - it's good in all the matches where CR punts. It can can establish a Chasm lock when Stoneblade is countering your other tutors. It gives you a finisher vs Miracles or D&T through your Chalice. It finds cards in the long game after you Dredge it. Etc.
The only real drawback is the deck space needed for double Trop.
I'm happy with Tracker, but I would prefer Prime Time over Thrun. I cost an extra :2:, but that should be okay in the matches where we might want Thrun. Also it can steal the occasional game vs Sneak Show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Yeah, Prime Time has a special place in my heart as a former 12 Post player. Actually, I bought my Tabernacle originally not out of a desire to play Lands, but as a sideboard card for my 12 Post deck. I then felt sad every time I saw it there, all lonely and unsupported by the rest of the deck, just a souped-up Rishadan Port really in a deck that's happy putting Needles on both Wasteland and Port.
Prime Time definitely has splash value against Sneaky, and works with the colors well, but I fear it's going to get Forced along with the rest of it. Perhaps, returning to your earlier point about T West, the best solution is actually just to run that tutor land to set up EE recursion more efficiently. That recursion has typically been what gives Lands board-control inevitability against other decks, and I suppose it's possible that the source of my troubles has been the fact that, lacking Intuition, setting up that pile is much harder to do. One must admit that the Intuition pile of Loam, EE, Academy Ruins puts a smile on one's face.
I'll also perhaps go on a tour of the win conditions that were retired before I even arrived at the deck to see if any of them hold water in the current meta. That's not to say I'm dissatisfied with Marit Lage, nothing could be further from the truth: but I find examination of win conditions to be educational (as well as a lot of fun). What's on the docket, Creeping Tar Pit (the only man land I'll test), Worm Harvest, and Mindslaver?