[Deck] Death and Taxes

Yep you might be right about the 4. Flagstones :-)
First i had non in the MD, then 2, now 3 - i rly might go up to 4 there.

Concerning Flickerwisp...
I rly think you underestimate this guy, even without vial...
Just some examples from the last 5 tournaments:
- I had several games vs. agressive-decks, in which i had Close situations, in which my batterskull had to jump-block an enemy goyf. Just play flickerwisp on the skull in 2. mainphase and have a dual time-walk due to the lifelink of this Equipment.
- On the opposite side i had use for the wisp in just bouncing the enemy-batterskull-token (not to mention the possibility to bounce an enemy dd-token)
- Beneath the fact that 3mana 3:1 flying isnt that bad at all (exspecially against delver, which you can bounce into a non-flipped creature again), the just the flying wins in many matches, when you can connect with an Equipment.
- Another trick (not that spectacular but still good): Play him with 2 plains / 1 wasteland, get wasteland eot back untapped and waste enemy land - you just got 3:1 flying for 2mana
- Beside many other shenanigans you can flicker your own stoneforge to get another Equipment in your Hand...
- Flicker Chalice of the void th get Access to Play StoP again...
- Flicker Mox Diamond (or even Chrome mox) against lands, if he has not that much mana (or completely screw him with rest in peace in game)
- And i had a crazy game against lands with vial on 3 and 3 flickerwisps, in which i killed through 2 maze of ith and glacial chasm (with loam online!) - funny: he has to sac another land, when chasm comes back into play^^

There sure are many other situations which i didn't have in matches, but flickerwisp has always been great and just for the statistics: i won definetly more games with 4 flickerwisps then with only 3 of them.

Greetz,
Marius

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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The drawbacks are pretty much Blood Moon, Back to Basics and Price of Progress. I think the upsides are pretty high, but the downsides do exist.

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

That's a sweet list, very tightly constructed. Looks like your meta must be all Storm and Elves :) I like the 4x Canonists.

I will challenge the sacred cow here and say that I enjoy running 3x Flickerwisp instead of 4x. They are phenomenal with Vial, but sometimes you don't find Vial and then drawing multiples of Wisps is underwhelming. Once in awhile, the double white is hard to hit as well. So like I said, Vial superstar but not so great otherwise.

By the way, not a critique -- I'm finding it hard NOT to run the full playset of Flagstones in every D&T build. I had a good discussion with a friend about it the other day. Not that we were arguing, he was also a huge proponent of it, but he was trying to convince HIS friend to do it.

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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Clearly you've never had a flagstones trigger get stifled...

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

That's a sweet list, very tightly constructed. Looks like your meta must be all Storm and Elves :) I like the 4x Canonists.

I will challenge the sacred cow here and say that I enjoy running 3x Flickerwisp instead of 4x. They are phenomenal with Vial, but sometimes you don't find Vial and then drawing multiples of Wisps is underwhelming. Once in awhile, the double white is hard to hit as well. So like I said, Vial superstar but not so great otherwise.

By the way, not a critique -- I'm finding it hard NOT to run the full playset of Flagstones in every D&T build. I had a good discussion with a friend about it the other day. Not that we were arguing, he was also a huge proponent of it, but he was trying to convince HIS friend to do it.

Seems like Flagstones is a no-brainer because:
- It thins out the deck
- It allows you to play around Massacre
- Is great with Cataclysm/Armageddon
- Received a boost after they changed the Legend rule

Even when I tested vs. some Blood Moon decks such as Painter, it didn't really matter. Unless you're facing T1 blood moon every round, it seems like an obvious inclusion.

I'm just failing to see the drawback, unless I'm really missing something...

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The Sacred Cow is sacred for a reason (Marius covered it pretty well I think).

I will add this: I have ran into more situations where I find myself wanting (or needing) Wisp more than situations where I dislike having it. So many cards in Legacy crumple to it, Vial or no, and the fact it flies and kills delver is just insane.

Of course, I also do two Mangara (another card I'd rather see than not), do my opinion of Wisp may be skewed... But I really think it is our most versatile tool--and one that opponents always seem to underestimate.

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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The best cards out of SBs are: Pithing Needle, Cataclysm, and Gaddock Teeg - the former attacking Top the latter limiting their Miracles. Council's Judgment can be fine too, to remove a Planeswalker or like the occasional Baneslayer Angel.

The Legendary cards in the MD are all premium - you can protect them from sweepers with Karakas. Swords to Plowshares is the weakest card post board.

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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Cataclysm, Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle are all all-stars. Make sure you're main decking Mangara of Corondor as well.

While not a sideboard card, getting a Vial online against Miracles makes this match substantially easier since you won't have to deal with getting creatures through Counterbalance. If you have a lot of Miracles where you play, running a Cavern of Souls might make sense also. A green splash version of the deck running both Teeg and Mangara is pretty darn good against Miracles, and lets you run Choke in the board as well just for fun.

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Originally Posted by Wasteland

There sure are many other situations which i didn't have in matches, but flickerwisp has always been great and just for the statistics: i won definetly more games with 4 flickerwisps then with only 3 of them.

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Good reasoning and good scenario list. I'll go back to 4x for a while and see what happens. (likely good things)

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Originally Posted by hill_giant

Clearly you've never had a flagstones trigger get stifled...

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You're right, I haven't. Then again, if they have Wasteland and multiple Stifles, because there are about a million other things they could Stifle in D&T, then I guess they win.

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Originally Posted by xavidp

Hello Guys,

What the best sideboard against Miracles. In my local metagame are a lot of Miracle decks.

Thank you!!

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It's already pretty good naturally against Miracles. Thalia plus Karakas is nuts. Make sure your first priority is to grab the SOFI for card advantage and pro-blue. Mulligan aggressively for vial. If you're running 4x Revokers main, it helps a lot. A matchup where Mangara shines.

During the Cruise era, Brimaz was also pretty damn good versus Miracles, but he's not such an auto-include anymore.

Out of the board, you have Ratchet Bomb and Cataclysm. Take out the Jitte and StPs.

i have a fairly diverse meta at my lgs. i don't really find myself mulliganing much unless i have 0 lands. i wanted to get some input on whether you guys would keep these hands against an unknown deck.

1) 3x plains, mom, stp, 2 revokers
2) 2 karakas, 2 plains, flagstone, stoneforge, thalia
3) plains, mom, revoker, jitte, mangara, mirran, brimaz
4) 2 wasteland, 2 vial, 2 flickerwisp, sofi
5) plains, flagstone, wasteland, port, mom, stoneforge, revoker
6) plains, flagstone, cavern, port, vial, flickerwisp, mirran
7) plains, karakas, thalia, revoker, serra, mirran, batterskull
8) 2 wasteland, plains, 2 mom, vial, stoneforge

i would likely mulligan: 2 (no waste/port), 3 (f'ed without finding another white source fast), 4 (seems too slow). i might not be happy with all of the other options, but i think they're keepable. how much of an emphasis do you all place on having a 1 drop in the opener?

3 is bad for sure. 6 is a bit soft. The others are all decent to solid. 2 has no turn 1 play but excellent turn 2 and 3 options. Of course if you topdeck another Karakas on one of those turns it starts to look kinda bad bit I keep that for sure. 4 is not slow. It is beautiful! You could turn 1 vial and possibly double Wasteland turn 2 to jump very far ahead.

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Originally Posted by neddsaurus

i have a fairly diverse meta at my lgs. i don't really find myself mulliganing much unless i have 0 lands. i wanted to get some input on whether you guys would keep these hands against an unknown deck.

1) 3x plains, mom, stp, 2 revokers
2) 2 karakas, 2 plains, flagstone, stoneforge, thalia
3) plains, mom, revoker, jitte, mangara, mirran, brimaz
4) 2 wasteland, 2 vial, 2 flickerwisp, sofi
5) plains, flagstone, wasteland, port, mom, stoneforge, revoker
6) plains, flagstone, cavern, port, vial, flickerwisp, mirran
7) plains, karakas, thalia, revoker, serra, mirran, batterskull
8) 2 wasteland, plains, 2 mom, vial, stoneforge

i would likely mulligan: 2 (no waste/port), 3 (f'ed without finding another white source fast), 4 (seems too slow). i might not be happy with all of the other options, but i think they're keepable. how much of an emphasis do you all place on having a 1 drop in the opener?

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I'd keep 3) on the draw, mull otherwise.
I would *maybe* consider mulling 4) and 7) due to a combination of no 1 drop play and having an equipment in hand. In a stoneforge deck the equipment is a bit of a virtual loss. (like Tendrils opener in storm).

When I say "no 1 drop play," I'd include StP in that equation. If I don't have Vial or mom, I'd at least feel better about having a removal answer to something they might play.

Re: equipment in opening 7...
Batterskull in your 7 is very close to a dead card. But if you resolve Mystic on turn 2 and fetch up a Jitte, that Batterskull you started with is all money. Your opponent thinks you are bringing in Jitte. You get a big surprise blocker/attacker. That is the kind of thing that wins games.

Hey guys, I've been having some real trouble with the philipp schoenegger ponder miracles matchup, especially in game one.

My vial gets forced, they plow all my dudes and terminus everything when I get even a modicum of board presence going. Then they entreat for 3 or 4 and that's game.

I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong... I've played the matchup a zillion times from the goblins side of the table and have an almost 100% win rate, even against experienced miracles pilots who have terminus'd me 4 times in 1 game.

I understand that such a blank statement is pretty hard to give advice on, but what are the things I can do against miracles?
Here's my current list which I've updated through the reading of the posts on this forum. http://www.mtgvault.com/steve2112rush/decks/dnt/

After game 1 I obviously get access to cataclysm/armageddon/pithing needle, but game 1 against miracles (for me at least) is a miserable experience.

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Barook

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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All very true. If you are approaching the matchup like a goblins player you are not going to succeed. Let me add an angle to this. The biggest reason D+T took so long to catch on is the same reason opponents new to it can not believe they just lost to it. This also accounts for the difficult learning curve and probably a few other peculiarities about the deck.

It's all about the subtleties.

There is a particular mindset you have to adopt to pilot this deck. You have to get up all in their business and just know that you are fucking with them even though you often can not directly observe the effects your disruption measures are having on your opponent. The land you tapped on upkeep prevented his big turn. Your untapped Vial stopped what really would have been a profitable attack for him due to his fear of the unknown in your hand. Mangara's very presence on the field is delaying him from casting Jace until after he has some sort of way to handle it. He waited a turn to cast Terminus because you always leave your Karakas untapped. A Storm pilot seemed to have waited too long to go off for no reason, but really he could not get his mana right after you Revoked Lion's Eye Diamond.

D+T ain't aggro. You want the game to go long. Amazingly, Terminus is not especially good against D+T if you know how to play against it. Don't overextend. The best D+T players leave observers scratching their heads about the way they are using their resources because they are less interested in getting in more damage and more interested in squeezing extra damage from what they have. That said, most good plays are visible. Just keep in mind that you want to exert control not so much over the opponent, but over the game environment. D+T games are almost never a blowout in your favor. You have to gain incremental advantage from lots of smart plays.



Facing Miracles, it is perfectly fine to end your turn with creatures in hand that you could have cast. Hit him for a few points a turn while keeping his options limited.

Questions about sideboarding:

- I see that most lists play at most 2 Containment Priests. When this card was first spoiled I thought it would be a defacto 4-of in every DnT lists because it seems to cover so much ground vs. Elves, SnT, Dredge, and Reanimator. Why are most lists running only 2 if any at all?
- I see lists (especially on MTGO) playing Ethersworn Canonists (some even 3-4 of!) in the sideboard. This seems like a new development to me - is this primarily to fight Elves and Storm or is there some specific reason maybe on MTGO to be playing this in addition to Thalia?

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Originally Posted by Barook

I see Cataclysm as a skill crutch in that match-up, but that's just me.

The key in this match-up is to grind them into the dirt. In general, you slowly get a few points of damage here and there, and that adds up quickly.

You can't compare that to the Goblins match-up where you can refill your hand easily and spam them to death.

Force them into 1-on-1 trades as often as possible, especially with Terminus. Don't overextend, normally 1-2 creatures on the board are enough, keep the rest for the time after the sweeper reset. Make the most out of your Flickerwisps. Use your equipment to put pressure on them without playing more creatures.

It took me a while to get a hang of the match-up, since it's pretty skill-intensive for both sides. And even if you're positive against Miracles, it's still a miserable experience. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Finn

All very true. If you are approaching the matchup like a goblins player you are not going to succeed. Let me add an angle to this. The biggest reason D+T took so long to catch on is the same reason opponents new to it can not believe they just lost to it. This also accounts for the difficult learning curve and probably a few other peculiarities about the deck.

It's all about the subtleties.

There is a particular mindset you have to adopt to pilot this deck. You have to get up all in their business and just know that you are fucking with them even though you often can not directly observe the effects your disruption measures are having on your opponent. The land you tapped on upkeep prevented his big turn. Your untapped Vial stopped what really would have been a profitable attack for him due to his fear of the unknown in your hand. Mangara's very presence on the field is delaying him from casting Jace until after he has some sort of way to handle it. He waited a turn to cast Terminus because you always leave your Karakas untapped. A Storm pilot seemed to have waited too long to go off for no reason, but really he could not get his mana right after you Revoked Lion's Eye Diamond.

D+T ain't aggro. You want the game to go long. Amazingly, Terminus is not especially good against D+T if you know how to play against it. Don't overextend. The best D+T players leave observers scratching their heads about the way they are using their resources because they are less interested in getting in more damage and more interested in squeezing extra damage from what they have. That said, most good plays are visible. Just keep in mind that you want to exert control not so much over the opponent, but over the game environment. D+T games are almost never a blowout in your favor. You have to gain incremental advantage from lots of smart plays.



Facing Miracles, it is perfectly fine to end your turn with creatures in hand that you could have cast. Hit him for a few points a turn while keeping his options limited.

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These in depth responses have been really helpful, thanks Barook and Finn! There's a lot for me to think about, cheers guys!

And yuh, playing against miracles is a miserable, no doubt about it :laugh:

Hi guys.

I'm a new Omnitell player. My match-up against yours looks very hard. Do you have any advice? Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia looks like an absolute beating.

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Originally Posted by MGB

Questions about sideboarding:

- I see that most lists play at most 2 Containment Priests. When this card was first spoiled I thought it would be a defacto 4-of in every DnT lists because it seems to cover so much ground vs. Elves, SnT, Dredge, and Reanimator. Why are most lists running only 2 if any at all?
- I see lists (especially on MTGO) playing Ethersworn Canonists (some even 3-4 of!) in the sideboard. This seems like a new development to me - is this primarily to fight Elves and Storm or is there some specific reason maybe on MTGO to be playing this in addition to Thalia?

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- SnT & Reanimator are some of D&T's best match-ups. And you don't need any help after sideboarding against Dredge since RiP + E-Tutor tends to destroy them. I just don't see the appeal outside of Elves.
- According to Bahra, he runs it for the Elves match-up. I'm not a fan of cutting E-Tutor for that.

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Originally Posted by Windmill

Hi guys.

I'm a new Omnitell player. My match-up against yours looks very hard. Do you have any advice? Ethersworn Canonist and Thalia looks like an absolute beating.

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Actually, I do kinda poorly against Omni. It's true that Thalia and Canonist are great against Omni. But little else we have does much of anything. I find myself going for some combination of weaker effects more often just because I don't have the goods in hand. Flickerwisp and Mangara can get you there most of the time. But you have to hardcast Mangara. Spirit of the Lab is of course great, but I am down to 1 or 2 in the board. Karakas doesn't do crap. Revoker neither. It's a bit better with Enlightened Tutor and a single Oblivion Ring. I had a Thorn of Amethyst in my board for this matchup for awhile too.

Hey, Windmill. Don't let Enlightened Tutor resolve. There's some advice.

I dunno. I just feel impotent in this one.

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Originally Posted by Barook

- SnT & Reanimator are some of D&T's best match-ups. And you don't need any help after sideboarding against Dredge since RiP + E-Tutor tends to destroy them. I just don't see the appeal outside of Elves.
- According to Bahra, he runs it for the Elves match-up. I'm not a fan of cutting E-Tutor for that.

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So are Reanimator and SnT considered really good matchups solely due to 3 Karakas MD?

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Originally Posted by MGB

So are Reanimator and SnT considered really good matchups solely due to 3 Karakas MD?

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Revoker is also pretty important to stop Sneak/Griselbrand. Thalia is kinda good with the mana denial package as well.

i'll just leave my list here:

Lands (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
7x Plains

Creatures (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Mangara of Corondor

Instants (4)
4x StP

Artifacts (7)
4x Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
4x Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x RiP
2x Cataclysm
2x Gut Shot
1x Pithing Needle
1x Council's Judgement
1x Manriki-Gusari

Thanks @ Wasteland, copied your 4 Canonists and 2 MD Mindcensors. I used to play 2 Mirran Crusader 1 Aven 0 Mangara but really like the new configuration. Dont really think crusader is needed, sure hes strong against any kind of bug decks, but I feel BUG delver as the version thats mostly played atm is favourable enough. 2 Mindcensors give some g1 options vs elves which i really like as well.
I feel like I wanna at least add 1 Spirit of the Lab to my board. As much as I dont like her maindeck - she helps a lot vs most kind of combo decks, and I feel like I want some additional hate against Omnitell. Thoughts?

Yeah Omnitell is tough. Most of our cards become blanks. The few times I've been successful have been active vial, Canonist on board, with another Canonist in hand. Mother of Runes becomes key here for protecting against Rushing River.

If there is a significant amount of Omni in your meta I'm not above maindecking Canonist or Spirits. It's one of those bad matchups you have to accept (like Elves).

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Originally Posted by Finn

Actually, I do kinda poorly against Omni. It's true that Thalia and Canonist are great against Omni. But little else we have does much of anything. I find myself going for some combination of weaker effects more often just because I don't have the goods in hand. Flickerwisp and Mangara can get you there most of the time. But you have to hardcast Mangara. Spirit of the Lab is of course great, but I am down to 1 or 2 in the board. Karakas doesn't do crap. Revoker neither. It's a bit better with Enlightened Tutor and a single Oblivion Ring. I had a Thorn of Amethyst in my board for this matchup for awhile too.

Hey, Windmill. Don't let Enlightened Tutor resolve. There's some advice.

I dunno. I just feel impotent in this one.

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No that was genuinely really helpful advice :) thank you. Why are you lessening the number of Spirit's in your board? Not good in your local meta, or are you playing in unknown tournament metas?

With the green splash I've been doing better than even against omnitell. After boarding I've got 2 Gaddock Teeg, 4 Thalia, 2 Canonist, 1 Spirit and 1 Fauna Shaman to search for hate. Mull to a hand that at least has a Thalia, and Wasteland or Port anything that looks like a sol land, try and keep them out of Show and Tell range till you can get a Teeg online.

I know this sounds crazy to an "outsider" (not meant as a pejorative in any way), but Spirit of the Labyrinth is not especially good. Folks assumed that D+T would be riding this power train to the moon, but the D+T testers around here found out pretty early that it was not a perfect fit. Honestly the highs with this card are sky high. Off a Vial, you can get the kind of swing that wins the game in response to many of the common draw abilities. But the lows are the Blade of the Sixth Pride kind. Death and Taxes can't afford many cards like that. This deck operates on very slim margins with not much deck manipulation. So our creatures have to be generically good rather than occasionally great. Think Flickerwisp. (Perhaps ironically, the card that would make Spirit work is Brainstorm.) Having a toughness of 1 does not help either. This deck is cluttered with fragile things like that.

In the recent Treasure Cruise era, I for one found this card to be a requirement for not getting blown out on card advantage. But it left me hanging from time to time too. If they Cruise and you topdeck it the turn after, it is terrible. If you are against Jund it is equally as bad. And so on. With Cruise run aground, it is just one more of probably a dozen powerful cards that are not quite right for prime time.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I know this sounds crazy to an "outsider" (not meant as a pejorative in any way), but Spirit of the Labyrinth is not especially good. Folks assumed that D+T would be riding this power train to the moon, but the D+T testers around here found out pretty early that it was not a perfect fit. Honestly the highs with this card are sky high. Off a Vial, you can get the kind of swing that wins the game in response to many of the common draw abilities. But the lows are the Blade of the Sixth Pride kind. Death and Taxes can't afford many cards like that. This deck operates on very slim margins with not much deck manipulation. So our creatures have to be generically good rather than occasionally great. Think Flickerwisp. (Perhaps ironically, the card that would make Spirit work is Brainstorm.) Having a toughness of 1 does not help either. This deck is cluttered with fragile things like that.

In the recent Treasure Cruise era, I for one found this card to be a requirement for not getting blown out on card advantage. But it left me hanging from time to time too. If they Cruise and you topdeck it the turn after, it is terrible. If you are against Jund it is equally as bad. And so on. With Cruise run aground, it is just one more of probably a dozen powerful cards that are not quite right for prime time.

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Totally agree with you here. Despite that I'd still run at least 1 in my sideboard, I think she does her job well against combo decks that run a lot of cantrips, and Im not bringing her in against fair decks anyway. In Addition to her hate-effect shes a solid beater as well, and her 1 toughness doesnt matter in combomatchups ( except elves maybe) anyway

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Originally Posted by deucegg

Totally agree with you here. Despite that I'd still run at least 1 in my sideboard, I think she does her job well against combo decks that run a lot of cantrips, and Im not bringing her in against fair decks anyway. In Addition to her hate-effect shes a solid beater as well, and her 1 toughness doesnt matter in combomatchups ( except elves maybe) anyway

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Well, AnT has Dread of Night sometimes. That card will end you if you don't have the right stuff. But I am with you on the singleton in the side. You can fetch it with Enlightened Tutor. And while Canonist is typically the better card to tutor up across the board, it is very handy to be able to fetch a Spirit if you already have the Canonist. So I am with you about keeping one around.

I want to claim that no one has done yet or is doing. I'm trying out 4 horizon canopies in my dnt list. It's not to shabby.

So during the prerelease I was fortunate enough to pull an Anafenza. After her being a complete house in limited, I playtester her by replacing Brimaz with her. After playtesting her, I am now looking for a second cut. Anafenza is the real deal. Getting a 4/2 Flickerwisp a 3/2 Thalia, even 2/2 Mother of Runes is just so good. Some of the biggest issues are Jitte, Zealous Persecution, Dread of Night, Etc. and Anafenza gets all around that. My meta is flooded with Blade decks so maybe that's why I so happy with her.

Saw that more and more Bug Delver players tend to put 1-2 Dread of Night in their sideboard in addition to golgari charms. If you actually know your bug delver enemy is playing charms, dread of nights and a singleton null rod, do you bring in councils judgement?

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Originally Posted by deucegg

Saw that more and more Bug Delver players tend to put 1-2 Dread of Night in their sideboard in addition to golgari charms. If you actually know your bug delver enemy is playing charms, dread of nights and a singleton null rod, do you bring in councils judgement?

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I always bring in Judgements against BUG, even if they don't run Dread of Night (which they really shouldn't in a large meta). It will still take care of any problem card they have, such as TNN, Liliana, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, etc... Even if you have to use it on Tarmogoyf or Delver it's still ok.

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

So during the prerelease I was fortunate enough to pull an Anafenza. After her being a complete house in limited, I playtester her by replacing Brimaz with her. After playtesting her, I am now looking for a second cut. Anafenza is the real deal. Getting a 4/2 Flickerwisp a 3/2 Thalia, even 2/2 Mother of Runes is just so good. Some of the biggest issues are Jitte, Zealous Persecution, Dread of Night, Etc. and Anafenza gets all around that. My meta is flooded with Blade decks so maybe that's why I so happy with her.

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That's interesting to hear. I might pick up 2 copies for testing shortly after the MODO release when her price plumpets.

I am testing a 1/1 split between anafenza and serra avenger. I've been less and less impressed with avenger as time goes on. An efficient beater just isn't enough in this deck. At least anafenza helps protects against a lot of the best sideboard cards against us, and give you another threat against miracles that you can protect with karakas. 2 copies of anafenza might prove to be too much, being legendary and all, but I just dunno yet.

Some other considerations for these slots include (in my mind): maindeck canonist, 1 spirit of the lab, or even leonin arbiter.

Has anyone had much experience with arbiter in legacy? The dissynergy with stoneforge obviously sucks, but perhaps the effect is harmful enough to the average opponent to make it worth it?

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Originally Posted by cursecatcher

Has anyone had much experience with arbiter in legacy? The dissynergy with stoneforge obviously sucks, but perhaps the effect is harmful enough to the average opponent to make it worth it?

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Search the thread, there has been a lot of discussion around the 4 Arbiter, 2 Aven Mindcensor, 4 Ghost Quarter build that has placed at some tournaments. Some of it was fairly recent, some about a year ago I think.

Yeah, I've seen those builds. I just don't feel particularly motivated to warp the deck around trying to make arbiter good. Maybe someday I'll try one of those out, but I don't get as much time to test new Legacy ideas week to week as I'd like.

I'm more wondering if it doesn't need much other help outside the normal DNT pieces to be a solid role-player. I should just test it myself at some weekly events and in test games, and report back though.

For clarity, I am talking about it replacing the 2 Avenger slots. I've been very happy with everything else in the maindeck since the banning. Avenger is just so comically bad in unfair matchups, and is almost never stellar even in the fair matchups.

It's interesting to hear about your experiences with Avenger. I'm running 3 avengers and I have to say that I find them to be quite good. I feel like it's often our best bet at an aggro plan when the situation calls for that. It carries equipment like a champ. I also think we need to be concerned about not having enough flyers. Delver of Secrets is a card and we also need a way to over and connect against elves.

I definitely admit that it can be nice to have against Elves, but their good draws are often going to make Avenger not matter at all. It just helps you beat their subpar draws. I also play 2 mirran crusader maindeck, so that's the hero I want holding the Jitte anyway. If you don't play Crusader, Avenger is probably more needed in this matchup.

As for battling Delver decks, trading off an Avenger for their Insect is fine, but not exactly exciting. I'd rather make this play with a Flickerwisp, after getting some other value out of the card.

In general, I think Avenger is a very emotional card. What I mean by this is that we dwell (daydream even) on the times when Avenger is holding Sword of Fire and Ice and you feel invincible. I admit, its an awesome pairing. What we try to quickly forget are the times when your 2 drop for vial is Avenger, and you die immediately to combo (show and tell, storm, natural order, etc).

The local metagame for me in Chicago is more combo heavy and less delver-infested compared to the Opens however. So for those events, Avenger might still be more palatable.