[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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10-30-2010, 07:40 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by konsultant

Well thought out and detailed explanation of Landstill in the current metagame.

Konsultant, I agree with the points you make regarding threats to Landstills existence, but don't believe they make the deck Tier 2 or worse.

1) Wasteland is by far the most run card in the format, you are very correct, and every single competitive deck runs non-basics. This is not new, and waste has been a threat for longer than Legacy has been in existence. Losing a land drop is bad news, but most landstill lists run 23-24 land, plus 4 BS, many run 2 Tops, some run Crucible and some run Loam. This is in addition to a modified mana-curve putting more emphasis on early game stabilization rather than late-game dominance. Most importantly, Waste is only scary when backed up by a fast clock. And contrary to popular belief, it is not always backed up by T2 Vengevine, multiple Merfolk, or an army of Tarmogoyfs/Nimble Mongeese. If you're running the common UWx, then you have 8 fetch, and atleast 3 Tundra to supply your white mana for Swords/Path. It only takes 1 red for a Firespout sweep. Also, not cracking your fetches when unnecessary is a big part of playing against wasteland. My personal build only runs 4 Jace for the 4+ mana slot, so getting to 3-4 (for Daze protection, my own Spell Pierce/Spell Snare mana) is all I need to function under a clock. If the Madness/Merfolk/Tempo deck gets their nut draw, chances are you lose just like any other blue deck, regardless of your 60.

2) Spell Pierce is a double-edged sword. While it is generally a hard counter against us, it is generally a hard counter against other decks engines also. I used to hate running it when my meta was slower, but now that I fight a lot of Tempo/Madness/Merfolk and a smigin of Combo, I love it. It is a beating against you, but also a beating against Survival, Aether Vial, opposing Standstills, other planeswalkers, etc. It's just a new addition to the metagame and the deck must adapt, improvise, and overcome like it has in years past.

3) Path was printed a couple sets ago, and it's like Swords 5-7. Really good at hitting Knights, Goofy, Vines and being a generally good piece of cheap spot removal that is on-color. Spell Pierce is also in the format, and it hurts Combo about *infinity* times worse than it does us. Spell Snare is amazing right now, and counters Survival, Goofy, Pridmage, CB, Confidant, blah, blah, blah. Seriously, there is no shortage of great 1 mana spells right now. In using them, you lose some late-game power, but gain a tremendous amount of early-game interactivity. We must adapt.

4) The manland-Standstill trick is definitely not as cool as it used to be, but standstill is still a great draw engine against Zoo, CB, Combo, GW Survival and pretty much anything that isn't Merfolk or Goblins. Mishra's Factory is at an all-time high in awesomeness, protecting Jace and Life for a followed up sweeper is bad-ass. Trading with Wild Nacatl, Vines, and a million other small dudes is great. If anything, opponents will almost always waste your Factory instead of a dual, which I'm perfectly fine with.

It's hard out there for Landstill, but not impossible. You do need to dedicate a lot of SB hate to the most common and dangerous matchups i.e. Merfolk, Madness, Combo, and U-based Tempo strategies. EE is still a great and versatile answer, especially when backed up by 6-7 Sword effects and Firespout to give you the time to use it. Jace is one of the top 5 cards in the format, and single-handedly answers the age-old problem of winning in a 40 minute round. To anybody who is not running at least 2, please reconsider. Firespout is an amazing sweeper still, killing everything in Madness, everything in Merfolk (if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out against you, the problem is you, not the deck), the little dudes in Zoo, and a host of other random dudes. In fact, it kills everything relevant in the format, sans Goofy, Knight, and flyers (duh) unless you splash green.

Cards like Counterspell and Eternal Dragon I agree are slow and outdated for the current meta, but there are plenty of options in our colors for a control deck to adapt. For reference, here is my current UWrg Landstill list that I have been playing with. Very similar to my Ubgw Deedstill list in the other thread (Also a valid metagame option!). Thus far I can say that with my sideboard, I have enjoyed success against UG Madness, multiple variants of Merfolk, Storm-based Combo, and have helped even the odds with Tempo decks like Faeries and Canadian Thresh.

"JaceStill"

4 Strand
3 Tarn
1 Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Tropical
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Factory
1 Ruins

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Baddest Mother-Fucker Around
4 Swords
2 Path
2 Firespout
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
3 Sensei's Machine of Unequaled Card-Quality

Sideboard

1 Path
2 Firespout
3 Peacekeeper (results in more Scoops than T1 Chalice of the Void)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle (Highly underrated)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce

The 3rd Top becomes an Island from time to time, but otherwise, the list is my mainstay. The Zoo matchup has been sacrificed for better game against the previously mentioned Tier 1 archtypes. It all comes down to adapting the control deck to deal with the major threats in the metagame.
Some effectiveness is lost against other matchups, but this is natural and necessary for survival in a competitive environment. You have to decide which decks you want to focus on beating based on prevalence.

Also, good luck with Vengevines! I played UG Madness for about 2 months and gave the deck up due to a rise in hate from my local area. May many T2 Vengevine hands be given to you comrade!
10-31-2010, 05:50 PM
galeng

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mana Drain

4 Jace, the Baddest Mother-Fucker Around

3 Sensei's Machine of Unequaled Card-Quality

Potential (new)unhinged card namings imo.
10-31-2010, 07:51 PM
Felidae

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I played at the GP Bochum Legacy Event today and got a rather disapointing 27th place out of 192 players.

R1: 1-1 vs Zoo
R2: 1-2 vs NO Bant (well I lost G1 to the Deckcheck...)
R3: 2-0 vs Show'nTell Emrakul.dec
R4: 2-1 vs Thopter Combo
R5: 2-0 vs Survival Zoo
R6: 2-0 vs Zoo
R7: 0-2 vs Goblins
R8: 2-1 vs Aggro Loam
5-2-1

I played a slightly modified version of my usual UWb LS, with Peacekeeper in the Sideboard against Vengevine Survival, dunno if it is worth the slots, as I couldn't test them at all.

A short report will follow tomorrow, as I'm jsut to tired right now.
11-01-2010, 11:55 AM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I've been working on PFires in control lists for the past few months. Still tweaking to optimize but I think the below list is an innovative take on solving certain problematic matchups landstill faces: Merfolks, Combo, Zoo. Scepter-chant was a great innovation off-radar list that has served me well, but I'm experimenting with this list (I call it the Punisher).

It's still a landstill list (aka 3-4 Standstill, 4 Planeswalker, counters/removals, no creatures). The basic idea was to play PFires + Groves, a combo that is used as a simple removal spell on Bob/Hierarch/Fish/Gobs early game, but builds up into an inevitable win-condition and stabilizing card against aggro and control decks. Then the next strategy was to answer the non-aggro matchup, hence including in Counterbalance, Top + counterbalance naturally went in, and Top is still a solid card in Landstill. A lot of times, Top isn't justified and played and I think Top is bad in Landstill without Counterbalance because it is not serving another purpose (with Counterbalance) and could have been a more useful slot instead of a slow card, but with Counterbalance, we do solve a number of issues the deck faces: combo/burn etc.

Notes: Intuition seems weak occasionally, but after real-life testing, it's been very powerful. The ability to go EOT Intuition -> 3 Counterbalance and set up your lock after that is great, or Intuition for various lands/punishing fire when crucible is out or grab Punishing Fires when you have a Grove in play is quite devastating, or the classic Ruins/EE/Crucible depending on what you have in hand/play. It could be replaced with more business spell like Humility though on the other hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Here's a 4c list I've been tinkering around with... It uses the punishing fire/burnwillows combo in conjunction with humility.

lands//25
4 tundra
1 tropical island
2 volcanic island
4 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
1 island
1 tolarua west
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
2 polluted delta

creature control//13
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
4 punishing fires

spells//22
4 brainstorm
3 jace, the mind sculpter
4 standstill
1 life from the loam
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

The deck has been testing really good against agro in general, but sometimes too many wastelands can spell total disaster... Anybody have any suggestions about making the manabase reliable?

The list I top2'd at my local tourney (small showing ~ 10-12 people, and I got a bye in match 1 so it's not too representative of what the deck is capable of at this point)

lands//23
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 island
1 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 Academy Ruins

creature control//10
1 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
3 punishing fires
2 Firespout

spells//28
4 brainstorm
2 jace, the mind sculpter
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
3 standstill
2 Crucible
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Intuition

SB:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 EE
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle

Match 1: Bye
Match 2: Goblins (PFires + StP + Firespout = no chance)
Match 3: TES (lost game 1, won game 2, lost game 3. I can't imagine fighting TES with chants without Counterbalance or Scepter-Chant, they're way too resilient these days)
Match 4: Aggro Loam (lost in two. Decks with Waste RECURSION are still horrible, never saw my relics game 2, had 1 crypt but wasn't enough, also never saw my Counterbalances)
Match 5 (Top 4): TES (won game 1 closely, blind flipped 1cmc spell FTW after going through counterwars v.s. Chant v.s. Dark Ritual on stack trying to brainstorm 1cmc on top of library when he's at 2 life, lost game 2, won game 3 with Counterbalance + Jace + Top + Crucible).
Match 6: Aggro-Loam (same player, we agreed to draw, I gladly accept lol)

2 Aggro-Loam, 2 TES... I doubt a traditional shell could have even won much games in this tourney. Man I hate Aggro-Loam.

I'm still a strong believer of Landstill despite all the doomsayings that the deck isn't well-positioned. I think despite the tremendous speed of Vengevival, Landstill still has answers to it. I'm currently playing Ray of Revelation in the SB and they are a turn faster, and can answer up to 2x2=4 Survivals, being fetchable by Intuition helps too. My thoughts for Landstill looking at the meta:

1) Wasteland is everywhere. I was running 2-3 basics and that just DID NOT work. You need about 4 to survive. You simply cannot afford to miss 2 land drop, getting wasted one time is still recoverable but if they luck-sack 2 wastes, which they always do for some reason you're in bad shape.

2) Freak, I tried Loam in Landstill but if G is not part of your tri-color, but is a splashed 4th color, it is dangerous to play Loam for two reasons: You aren't abusing Loam as well as decks like Lands/Aggro-loam so Loam actually mills away important cards. Against decks with Wastelands, if G is not your tri-color but your fourth, you'll run into more situations where fetching UG will hurt you more. Granted you have 4 Groves, but the Groves are actually bad lands in the early game. You want UW and UR lands to setup for couunterspell's UU. This is my experience. I realy want to play Loam over Crucible but I just can't. Loam frees up one more maindeck slot which is invaluable but at the moment it creates more stability issues. I am a strong advocate of Cruciblesx2. I've used to play and cut them off and put them in, but I'm convinced this is the sole card that wins alot of matchups. If you analyzed Landstill's performance, you'll notice that you lose when you miss a critical land-drop or get wasted. Crucible will make sure that you will keep landdrops and nullify wasteland.dec based strategy. In my build, Crucible + Top + Fetch becomes an inevitable card advantage engine (drawing '2 cards' everyturn i.e. make sure you don't draw lands). With Counterbalance in play, you are digging 6 cards deep per spell your opponent casts. Crucible is also much easier to cast and doesn't require you to keep tapping out to recycle lands (one big problem with Loam). Note that Loam is better in Countertop decks than Landstill since Countertop can afford to tap out while Landstill can't (we don't have Countertop). But even with Counterbalance in my list, Crucible is far outperforming Loam. It's free, no mana needed to activate, and it sits there and negates strategy, recycles Factories/Fetches, get tons of mana, win the resource war and stabilize.

3) Firespout is terrible in my list. With Punishing Fire, you are winning your tribal matchups. PFire won't do much against Zoo until the mid-game when you are able to start using it twice per target. Firespout is still good, but aside from Tribal Aggro taken care by PFires, it is still fairly weak aagainst newer Zoo lists (bigger creatures), Knights, Goyfs, Aggro-Loam duds. I'm taking the x2 Firespout out for +1 EE and +1 Top. The EEs will be more useful against big knights/crushers/goyfs yet be able to answer Survival/Counterbalance/Enchantress/artifacts. That was something I learned from seeing Firespout either being a useless card or a win-more card (since if you have access to a single PFires + Groves, you're in good shape).

4) The combo matchup is greatly improved with my new list. Landstill simply cannot beat TES even postboard if it does not run Counterbalance or Scepter-Chant. TES will just duress/Chant off and since you don't run Daze, you don't have enough counters-mana-available ratio to counter a critical turn. You need to Counterbalance or Chant them in this matchup. The burn/Zoo matchup is improved with Countertop. The weak matchups are now: Aggro-Loam. On paper it shoudl be improved since counterbalance locks Loam out, but Aggro-Loam is solid in answers: Pulse/EE. It's a tough matchup. 3-4 Relic SB should help but I didn't see them at all. I think aggro-loam can only be hated out with a UWb build so I'm just going to ignore this matchup, ugh not to mention them using Worm Harvest against you...

@Felidae: Hope to hear your report soon! We havne't had some discussions/report so we would all like to know how the deck is faring in specific-said meta.
11-01-2010, 01:47 PM
PascalF

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

On the 24th I won a small tournament (23 players) with the following List,
beating an Eldrazi tribal deck, Sligh, UBr Dreadnought-Counterbalance, U/G Vengevine Survival and Reanimator.

Lands 25
2 Island
2 Plains

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Spells
2 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
3 Peacekeeper
3 Extirpate
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce

I got the Idea of a light splash for deed etc from Christoper Waltons 10th place list at the SCG Open Nashville.

Maindeck:
The Wastelands weren`t amazing, but they weren`t bad either.
Still, I`m going to test a list with academy ruins and 2 other Lands instead.

Spell Snare was good, but spell pierce came in against most opponents.
I think either one is a defensible maindeck choice.

SB:

I never brought the meddling mages in.

Spell pierce came in against Sligh, UBR Dreadnought, Survival and Reanimator.

Extirpate came in against Survival and Reanimator.

Peacekeeper came in against Survival and UBR Dreadnought (not sure if that
was the right call, but I didn`t see any removal from him)

Krosan Grip came in against UBR Dreadnought.

Relic came in against Reanimator, but I never drew it.
11-01-2010, 03:42 PM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I like the list, looks like a beating, 2 deeds seems strong and also able to EE@4 when needed gives some flexibility. 25 lands make sense for not playing with Crucible/Loam. Was 7 colorless a problem giving awkward mana problems? I'm on the edge of cutting Wasteland despite running Crucible since I really hate seeing hands with 2 colorless + 1 colored sources. I feel that Humility and/or Peacekeeper is a little weird though. Shoudn't Humility answer the matchups where Peacekeeper can aside from risk getting gripped? Humility + Peacekeeper in the same deck might lead to multiple draws but I guess that's what you want against those matchups i.e. draw as many Humility/Peacekeeper as you can. I think Peacekeeper is going to be very good for awhile and then become less powerful when people convert their Grips to Wipe Aways, but I'm not sure if the meta is shifting there yet (Wiping away countertop does nothing so Grip might still be around).
11-01-2010, 05:43 PM
PascalF

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@Manabase:
The Manabase held up nicely, though I was careful with my fetches/brainstorms/mulligans.
The maindeck is almost completly U/W and you can cast deed and just leave
it on the board, so it should be fine.
But obviously I didn`t play against extremly heavy mana disruption.

@Humility/Peacekeeper:
The Deck/SB is weighted somewhat against the Vengevine Survival matchup since
I expected them to be out in force.
Against Survival having both is somewhat redundant, but Peacekeeper is much
stronger against merfolk. It only needs 1 basic plains, it costs 1 mana less
and it doesn`t get hit by spell pierce. This way you minimize the
effect of their mana disruption.

@wipe away:
Imho the card won`t be as popular as Grip for two reasons:
1)It`s not as splashable.
2)It doesn`t permanently answer the Card. If they bounce the Peacekeeper
they have to kill you right there/have a counterspell in addition or else
they`re back to square one.

Just like with Grip you can´t really do anything about it, except play around it
(keep killing their creatures even while the lock is up/win before they can recover)
or possibly board in meddling mage.
Sometimes it will just wreck you no matter which permanent you`re playing.
11-01-2010, 06:12 PM
The Treefolk Master

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by PascalF

I got the Idea of a light splash for deed etc from Christoper Waltons 10th place list at the SCG Open Nashville.

His list ran Moat, are you not running it because you don't have any or for any other reasons?
11-01-2010, 06:54 PM
Felidae

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

So here is my report of try and error / rise and fall at the GP Bochum:

Lets start with the list:
As usual I expected a lot of Merfolk (as it is a very popular deck all around the area), Zoo (the obvious counterpart for Fish) and Survival Decks in any variation. While playtesting various UWb / UWr versions I looked a couple of pages back and found the discussion about Peacekeeper vs Preacher. At that time I didn't liked him, comapred to my beloved Preachers, however after testing him against Vengevine Survival and Merfolk I really started to like this guy, at least in said MU's.
The next thing I looked at was my Sideboard and therefor the splash. As I expected an open Meta I wanted a tool that can handle everything, from creature to planeswalker over to lands, well you can guess about wich card I talk.
So I decided to play the following Board:
2 Peacekeeper
2 Vindicate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormnonds Crypt
2 Negate
3 Hydroblast
3 Meddling Mage

All there was left, the maindeck...
The biggest issue for this field would probably be the manabase, as there are so many tempo decks that can easiely hurt us via Stifle or Wasteland, so I wanted a strong, yet simple manabase that is able to recover from some Wastelands. As the core of my deck is allways UW I kept the splash colors at a minimum.

I came up with this:
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Glavier Fortress
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon

For the remaining 36/37 cards I kept it simple, using the typical UW stuff and 4cc bombs.

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

So without further ado, lets start with the report:

Round 1: Zoo
Game 1: I lose the dieroll and he leads with Taiga and Nacatle, after one swing for 3 he pass the turn so I sword the cat eot to play my Standstill on my turn, however he has 2 Bolts in response, burning me down to 10 life. In his turn he casts a KotR, but I have the Path. In his next turn he goes for another Cat and I let it resolve, being able to cast Elspeth in my round. He also casts an Chainlightning wich I let resolve, as I didn't want to waste my Force for it. So I cast Elspeth in my turn and start to vomid out token. We struggle for a while, as my token chump his cat while his other creatures die to point removal. After some turns he's at 5 life with only 1 card left in his hand, however he has a Libary in play that can provide him with 1 more card. I have a Force, a Brainstorm and a Factory left in my hand. I pass the turn, he draws 1 cards, going down to 1 and goes for it: Fireblast -> Brainstorm into Humility, Island and Standstill, so I had two opptions here: Force it and hope that he didn't draw enough burn to finish me off or let it resolve and hold Force for his next spell. I decide to Force it, as he still had a Taiga left, wich means that a PoP would kill him as well. So he just goes for Fireblast nr.2 followed by PoP, nice mister.

Game 2: I start with Plains, he goes for the raging Ape, wich eats a Sword. His turn 2 Goyf meet a Spell Snare and I'm able to resolve Crucible, hoping that he has the Grip so I can resolve my Humility without so much pressure. He apparently didn't saw a reason to play Grip and lay down 2 guys, who die to a Wrath next turn. As my 4th land was Wasteland that could screw his entire manabase he decided that it would now be a good idea to grip my Crucible, clearing the path for Humility. I foolowed that up with a FoF for Elspeth, Decree and Standstill, which let him forfeit soon after.

Game 3: With only 10 minutes left we start into the last game (guess we wasted to much time trashtalking) and neither of us could find any pressure, so we part with a draw.

0-0-1

Round 2: NO Bant
Game 1: I missed 3 Explosives in my Decklist so I get a gamelose. To explain the missing EE's: I didn't know that they had prepaired sheets for the decklist, so I scribbled it downt in the last seconds during the seedings.

Game 2: I lead with Island, followed up with another, as I'd only saw a Fetchland on his Side. He played a Tropical and a Top in his turn, making it pretty ovious to guess wich deck he was piloting. On my turn 3 I played a Standstill and he fetched eot for a Dryad Arbor, so I knew that he was running NO. After 1 swing the poor Dryad died to a Wasteland and after dropping Mishra the next turn he broke the Standstill with a Brainstorm, forcing me to discard a PtE. He then goes for Counterbalance, wich met Spell Snare and Tarmogoyf, who met StP.
On my turn I try to lure out his Force with Jace (as I got Elspeth and Humility left), however he doesn't seem to have a force so I start to fadeseel. In his next turn he goes for Hierach and Warmonk, with only 1 card left in his hand. Humility and Elspeth won the game 2 turns later.

Game 3: I would love to tell an epic story, but I simply didn't found my 4th land and died to a Kotr and a Pridemage.

0-1-1

At this moment I was very frustrated, to lose against a Bantdeck while my mates all got a 2-0 start. So I decided to give my best to win everything from now on, however I stopped taking notes, as I didn't expect to write a report anymore.

Round 3: Show and Tell Emrakul.dec

Game 1: After I saw only lands (Usea and Trop) plus Brainstorms from him in the early turns I set him on BUG LS, however after he tried to resolve a Limdouls Vault I knew that he was running some sort of combo. His Mosswort Bridge next turn made it clear. However I was able to resolve Elspeth and attack with flying Fatorys, as he had decide to take my Humility with his Thougtseize. on His last turn he goes for the Nought and I pathed it in respomse to the Bridge.
Game 2: Meddling Mage on Dreadnought and Meddling Mage on Show and Tell just won this one.

1-1-1

Round 4: Thopter Combo

Game 1: We had a decent fight over his Jace and CB, however his top kept filtering into buisness for him and with 4 life left he finaly assembeld the combo.

Game 2: Yet again we fought over some cards like Elspeth or Jace, but somehow I sneaked my Crucible into play and set up the Wastelock. A couple of flying soldiers won this game.

Game3: My opponents starts to play really slowly and I didn't knew if I should call a Judge over or not, but I decided to politly ask him if he could play a bit faster, like in the last games, and he really speeded his play up, wich didn't helped him to deal with Jace, even as he tried everything, from Pithing Needle to Explosiv on 4.

2-1-1

Round 5: Survival Zoo

Game1: Again we trashtalk during the hole game, and I start to notice a pattern: whenever Stefan Czolk (spirit of the wretch) is sitting next to me (like in R1) I somehow get sucked into this hole trashtalking theme, dunno why.
So back to the game:
Game 1: Humility seems to be a good call against a Zoo deck with a lot creatures and less burn. Oh and DoJ is awesome, too.

Game2: Humility is just that good, and Elspeth isn't bad, either.

3-1-1

Round 6: Zoo

Game1: He leads with Taiga into Nacatle so I look into my hand, filled with cheap removal and a Standstill to benefit from and empty board, nice. His Nacatle eats a Sword , however with my freshly drawn Wrath I decide to let him resolve an Ape to trade x for 1. He falled for it as he played a Goyf and another Ape in his next turn. At the now empy board I throw my Standstill and DoJ for a couple of tokens. He isn't able to recover.

Game2: If Zoo hasn't got a turn 1 dude you are quite positiv to win the game.

4-1-1

So we had 2 Rounds left and a 6-1-1 record would ensure me Top 16 (meaning at least a Display Futuresight).

Round 7: RB Goblins:

Game1: I kept a rather slow hand and he just steamrolls me with annoying Goblins.

Game2: We fought a decent fight, however his Vial kept chaining Ringleaders who also kept digging for mor Ringleaders. At one point I made a crucial mistake wich cost me the game: He had Vial at 5 and I knew that he had a SGC in his hand (due to Ringleader), his other cards on the board are a Matron, a Ringleader, a Warchief and a Chieftain. I have Elspeth and 6 tokens (thanks to DoJ) and Explosiv at 3 and a Sword for his SGC in my hand. As he used his Vial I should have respond with cracking the Explosiv, however I missed it, and he throws himself and 2 Goblins at my head, leaving me with 7 life. Elspeth reaches the ultimate and a second copy lands down, so I felt pretty confortable. He rippes his second SGC off the top, Extirpates away my last StP's and leaving me with 1 Hydroblast, 2 Wraths and 2 Humilitys to deal with his SGC, as he could kill me the next turn. I draw Brainstorm, and find: Flooded Strand, Island , Standstill. So SGC throws 4 tokens at my head and I die.

4-2-1

Round 8: RG Loam

Game 1: Mulligan to 4 as I never saw a single land. He leads with Mox Diamond, Taiga and Goyf, so I know what he was playing. As I didn't play anything else except a lonely Factory I scoop after he played his first Wasteland.

Game 2: MM on Loam + Elspeth won the game.

Game 3: He leads with Chalice 1 and 2 Mox Diamons, while I just looked at the Explosiv in my hand. He goes for Loam but I had a Relic, ready to remove his yard. After a Meddling Mage shut his Loam down once more and a Crucible + Wasteland are threating his Manabse he scoopes it up.

5-2-1

so I end up on 27th place, winning 6 packs of SOM.

pros:
- awesome tourney
- my mates for letting me borrow Jace and Usea
- meeting LSV, Saito, Kibler and a couple more
- almost recovering from 0-1-1 start
slops:
- no time to get my Meddling Mages signed by Mr. Möller (why do you had to close after the last round of the tourney =/ )
- losing against the Deckcheck
- losing against Goblins
- not much place for every player, our chaires did allways touch each other

cheers

Felidae
11-02-2010, 01:20 PM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Nice report Felidae, pity the game loss due to the EE in SB costed a match!

I have some questions because I have been running Decrees in and out but in most situations I decide to not play with them. It strongly supports standstill but I feel that sometimes it's a little slow in stabilizing. It's always awesome when followed up with Elspeth (even better with Elspeth 2 although Elspeth 1 is still stronger because she wins faster and grows bigger). I'm just wondering if you are using Decrees to win or to stabilize in most situations.

Did Peacekeeper do anything for you during the tourney? I am running 3 but have not boarded them in yet since I haven't faced Merfolks/Emrakul/NOGenitus in awhile. Yeah losing to Goblins is sadface especially with all those Hydroblast, makes you think of how powerful Extirpate is right now in Goblins against the meta (Survival) and still be useful against control, at least when I played against black decks, Extirpate on StP was quite painful e.g. against Eva's big dudes.

How did you find WoG/Day? Do you think if you played UWr you'd play Wrath over Firespout? I think Firespout has been weak for me in testing and I would prefer WoG over it. I have an issue with EDragon, mainly addressed from "What if EDragon is Card-X". If you marked EDragon as Card-X where X is the 24th land, or any other spell, do you find yourself just cycling EDragon to grab a land? Or are there usually enough lands in your hand where EDragon is just grabbing extra lands i.e. EDragon could have been a business spell Card-X? Or are you recurring EDragons in your game where he comes back to win-games? (I used to play Edragons and Humility, but found the late-game disynergy to be not worth it). I'm interested in your opinions, basically if you marked EDragon as a mystery card X, what situations does card X functions that you desire most of the time: a land drop? a win-condition that previously fixes your mana? a business spell?
11-02-2010, 03:59 PM
Iron Buddha

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Maybe you are interested in the opinion of a random person:
Decree of Justice is a win-condition first. It is without a doubt the best win-condition you have in your deck. However, Decree of justice will never act as your stabilizing center piece, but merely as a supplement to your stabilizing center-piece. Humility and Vedalken Shackles are stabilizing center pieces; these are the cards that stop Zoo and Goblins. (5 dudes from your DoJ can hardly stop Zoo.) But one card (Humility, etc.) can't stop a whole deck, so it needs DoJ as a supplement. What makes DoJ so great is that as a supplement to your major board-control pieces it is even better than the major board-control piece itself. (2x Humility is much weaker than 1x Humility + 1x DoJ; 2x Vedalken Shackles is not as flexible as 1x Vedalken Shackles + 1x DoJ, as you are dependent on your opponent). It's the extreme flexibility that makes DoJ so great as a supplementary board-control-piece. It is flexible, because of the following reasons:
- it's reliable (it gets around Path to Exile),
- it helps you find the bomb (by drawing a card)
- it can go offensive (it has evasion + it deals quite a lot of damage)
- it plays defensively (much better than a single creature like Tarmogoyf)
11-03-2010, 03:44 AM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

Maybe you are interested in the opinion of a random person:
Decree of Justice is a win-condition first. It is without a doubt the best win-condition you have in your deck. However, Decree of justice will never act as your stabilizing center piece, but merely as a supplement to your stabilizing center-piece. Humility and Vedalken Shackles are stabilizing center pieces; these are the cards that stop Zoo and Goblins. (5 dudes from your DoJ can hardly stop Zoo.) But one card (Humility, etc.) can't stop a whole deck, so it needs DoJ as a supplement. What makes DoJ so great is that as a supplement to your major board-control pieces it is even better than the major board-control piece itself. (2x Humility is much weaker than 1x Humility + 1x DoJ; 2x Vedalken Shackles is not as flexible as 1x Vedalken Shackles + 1x DoJ, as you are dependent on your opponent). It's the extreme flexibility that makes DoJ so great as a supplementary board-control-piece. It is flexible, because of the following reasons:
- it's reliable (it gets around Path to Exile),
- it helps you find the bomb (by drawing a card)
- it can go offensive (it has evasion + it deals quite a lot of damage)
- it plays defensively (much better than a single creature like Tarmogoyf)

I completely disagree with this. DoJ is a win-more, lose-slower card that is only optimal when a Standstill in play. If you have Standstill out and you're playing this deck, chances are that you are winning as it is. All the points you make for DoJ are only applicable in the lategame, when we should be winning anyway, not the early game, where we are struggling to stablize. At 4-5 mana, it is a cantriping fog. Otherwise, it takes 7-8 mana to make DoJ worthwhile, and is easily thwarted/played around by Merfolk, Vengevine, or any deck with Firespout/EE. Jace/Espeth both cost 4 and will make you lose-less and win-soon if unanswered. And they come down 2-3 Turns faster, thus making an actual IMPACT on the gamestate, not just sitting in your hand staring back at you. Both of them are also just better and easier to combo with Standstill.

Shackles is cool in the Goblins match, and against other control-ish decks (if you can get it to resolve/survive). Everywhere else, it's way to slow, and way to easy to ignore/destroy. Merfolk doesn't care, Zoo is too fast and equiped with Pridemage, Vengevine is too fast/doesn't care, and some decks like Aggro-Loam run dudes to big to steal. So in all our tough matchups, it is weak. Plus, your manabase has to be adjusted to accommodate it.

Humility is very badass, but kinda slow and heavy white. Without mutilating you manabase with multiple Plains, it is very difficult to cast against Wasteland decks. Plus, dodging Daze and Spell Pierce, harsh man. It can just end the game, but is often too late or too hard to get to resolve to make an impact against the faster aggro decks.
11-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Felidae

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

DoJ was allways an amazing card for me, as you are certainly going to win, even if you only use it to stabilize /clear the board (if Humility is in play) the board or chump a singelton Goyf / KotR for some turns. Being able to stabilize is usual the first step to our victory and therefor I'd say that DoJ is a wincondition at any time.
If we are comparing the lategame impact o both Jace and Elspeth or DoJ at turn 5+ then we can assume that DoJ gets stronger every turn and needles to say that if killed countless Jaces with Decree tokens.

I'd not board in Peacekeeper a singleton time, as I'd never got the chance to play the MU's where he matters (i.e. Folk or Survival), however he's ben a solid card during my testing so far, yet I hope that they'll gain some tourney experience soon.

I'd usually mark E.Dragon as my 24th land, beating other control decks and acting as a tutor for black mana if I need it. However if I draw him with 7+ mana and without a Humility in play he gets castet quite freequently. I can understand why many people thing that he's outdated and weak compared to Crucible, however he has proven himself enough in the past to earn a solid place in my list.
As we discussed E.Dragon and Crucible befor I don't want to sum up everything again.

If I played UWr then I'd play WoG in there, too, but Firespout would probably earn 2 Sideboard slots. Firespout was a great card at the beginning, but the meta has evolved to a point where Merfolk can slam down multiple lords in 1 turn and Zoo is used to play around the card and also runs KotR's and Goyfs. Humility + Firespout might be a solid board sweeper, however WoG provides this in a single card.
11-03-2010, 12:08 PM
konsultant

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mana Drain

Konsultant, I agree with the points you make regarding threats to Landstills existence, but don't believe they make the deck Tier 2 or worse.

1) Wasteland is by far the most run card in the format, you are very correct, and every single competitive deck runs non-basics. This is not new, and waste has been a threat for longer than Legacy has been in existence. Losing a land drop is bad news, but most landstill lists run 23-24 land, plus 4 BS, many run 2 Tops, some run Crucible and some run Loam. This is in addition to a modified mana-curve putting more emphasis on early game stabilization rather than late-game dominance. Most importantly, Waste is only scary when backed up by a fast clock. And contrary to popular belief, it is not always backed up by T2 Vengevine, multiple Merfolk, or an army of Tarmogoyfs/Nimble Mongeese. If you're running the common UWx, then you have 8 fetch, and atleast 3 Tundra to supply your white mana for Swords/Path. It only takes 1 red for a Firespout sweep. Also, not cracking your fetches when unnecessary is a big part of playing against wasteland. My personal build only runs 4 Jace for the 4+ mana slot, so getting to 3-4 (for Daze protection, my own Spell Pierce/Spell Snare mana) is all I need to function under a clock. If the Madness/Merfolk/Tempo deck gets their nut draw, chances are you lose just like any other blue deck, regardless of your 60.

2) Spell Pierce is a double-edged sword. While it is generally a hard counter against us, it is generally a hard counter against other decks engines also. I used to hate running it when my meta was slower, but now that I fight a lot of Tempo/Madness/Merfolk and a smigin of Combo, I love it. It is a beating against you, but also a beating against Survival, Aether Vial, opposing Standstills, other planeswalkers, etc. It's just a new addition to the metagame and the deck must adapt, improvise, and overcome like it has in years past.

3) Path was printed a couple sets ago, and it's like Swords 5-7. Really good at hitting Knights, Goofy, Vines and being a generally good piece of cheap spot removal that is on-color. Spell Pierce is also in the format, and it hurts Combo about *infinity* times worse than it does us. Spell Snare is amazing right now, and counters Survival, Goofy, Pridmage, CB, Confidant, blah, blah, blah. Seriously, there is no shortage of great 1 mana spells right now. In using them, you lose some late-game power, but gain a tremendous amount of early-game interactivity. We must adapt.

4) The manland-Standstill trick is definitely not as cool as it used to be, but standstill is still a great draw engine against Zoo, CB, Combo, GW Survival and pretty much anything that isn't Merfolk or Goblins. Mishra's Factory is at an all-time high in awesomeness, protecting Jace and Life for a followed up sweeper is bad-ass. Trading with Wild Nacatl, Vines, and a million other small dudes is great. If anything, opponents will almost always waste your Factory instead of a dual, which I'm perfectly fine with.

It's hard out there for Landstill, but not impossible. You do need to dedicate a lot of SB hate to the most common and dangerous matchups i.e. Merfolk, Madness, Combo, and U-based Tempo strategies. EE is still a great and versatile answer, especially when backed up by 6-7 Sword effects and Firespout to give you the time to use it. Jace is one of the top 5 cards in the format, and single-handedly answers the age-old problem of winning in a 40 minute round. To anybody who is not running at least 2, please reconsider. Firespout is an amazing sweeper still, killing everything in Madness, everything in Merfolk (if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out against you, the problem is you, not the deck), the little dudes in Zoo, and a host of other random dudes. In fact, it kills everything relevant in the format, sans Goofy, Knight, and flyers (duh) unless you splash green.

Cards like Counterspell and Eternal Dragon I agree are slow and outdated for the current meta, but there are plenty of options in our colors for a control deck to adapt. For reference, here is my current UWrg Landstill list that I have been playing with. Very similar to my Ubgw Deedstill list in the other thread (Also a valid metagame option!). Thus far I can say that with my sideboard, I have enjoyed success against UG Madness, multiple variants of Merfolk, Storm-based Combo, and have helped even the odds with Tempo decks like Faeries and Canadian Thresh.
The 3rd Top becomes an Island from time to time, but otherwise, the list is my mainstay. The Zoo matchup has been sacrificed for better game against the previously mentioned Tier 1 archtypes. It all comes down to adapting the control deck to deal with the major threats in the metagame.
Some effectiveness is lost against other matchups, but this is natural and necessary for survival in a competitive environment. You have to decide which decks you want to focus on beating based on prevalence.

Also, good luck with Vengevines! I played UG Madness for about 2 months and gave the deck up due to a rise in hate from my local area. May many T2 Vengevine hands be given to you comrade!

It's not a question of what tier the deck falls in really, at least not for me. I play whatever will give me the most consistent wins against whatever I may play against. While I have sentimental atachment to Landstill, obviously since I still follow the thread, I'd much rather just win so I play whatever I think can do that best. I don't net deck and it's not about playing what the majority of Magic players feel is the best deck I just run what I feel gives me the best chances of being able to win vs what everybody else considers the best deck.

I am running a very competitive deck with a whopping 3 non basics in it that pretty much never see play because I don't have to have them to win. It is not at all impossable to build a deck that doesn't care about Wasteland its just an under done practice. It is however impossable to build a 3 color control deck that doesn't care about Wasteland atleast sometimes. I've toyed with everything but Tithe and Loam helped alot but weren't always enough. In the end this all just comes down to consistent wins and as such playing Landstill you are playing into the MD hate in the room running into Wastelands.

Spell Pierce can be a useful tool but we are playing a stalling game and even though it may only happen one game in the entire event you could very realistically lose to your opponent paying for a Spell Pierce. It's an inherint problem of trying to keep up with the format yet still having the late game to beat everything that's out there. Control was considerably stronger when the format was slower just by definition. Like I keep saying it's not that you can't win games with it but how many times will it fail you in a 7-8 round event where you need to win the first 6 rounds? These are all small factors that individually can be over come but they add up to individual game losses here or there and throw in a touch of bad luck or your opponents good luck and you find yourself x-2 taking home your top 16 prize. That's where I was for along time and I know I wasn't the only Landstill player getting those results.

I've won games with Path and I've also lost games with Path. I've excelled numerous players into the win with it. It's a great card but you almost can't cast it in the first 5-6 turns without potentially excelling your opponent out of your reach. The reverse tempo is a very serious drawback. Sure most games it will be just fine but the last event I played Landstill in I excelled my opponent into a turn 3 Natural Order with one mana up for a Spell Pierce that kept me out of yet another top 8.

I agree there is absolutely no problem with Standstill, the only reason it is weaker is because Factory doesn't kill most of the format like it used to so the board needs to be clear before you cast it more times than not which can slow down our draw engine. All just small contributions to things that we don't want to see. In this field it's a pretty safe bet people are either dropping men or have spell pierce in the first couple turns of the game.

I'm not saying you can't win with the deck at all, my point was more it's considerably easier to win with different decks in the current format. Landstill needs a new fast card advantage bomb of some kind to push it back on top, until that gets printed it won't be the house that it used to be.

The peacekeeper is techy, I actually run him in my Survival list as well. Just a friendly heads up I already run a Mangora and a Duplicant in my list for other reasons plus 4x STP. People tend to run odd card choices after seeing somebody play them so be aware some Survival players may have outs to Peacekeeper.
11-03-2010, 03:31 PM
Iron Buddha

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

You don't like Decree of Justice, because it lacks power. This is exactly, what I have said in my post. However, while Decree of Justice lacks power, it provides flexibility (see my post above for an explanation of the flexibility of Decree of Justice) In my opinion this is very valuable, but you seem to disagree here.
11-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

You don't like Decree of Justice, because it lacks power. This is exactly, what I have said in my post. However, while Decree of Justice lacks power, it provides flexibility (see my post above for an explanation of the flexibility of Decree of Justice) In my opinion this is very valuable, but you seem to disagree here.

People don't like DoJ because it lacks power AND speed. It is really only a good card to see under a Standstill, and if Standstill is out, chances are you're already winning. It takes 7-8 mana to make 2 Angels or a decent team of guys. Until then, it's a 3 mana uncounterable draw spell.
Jace and Elspeth come down sooner, and can get you out of bad-spots easier. Eternal Dragon gets you land, and Factory is a versatile blocker and slow win-condition that just happens to add mana to your pool. DoJ is just too slow and too minuscule of an effect right now, and the guys you make will more then likely just chump-block, or eat a EE/Firespout/Deed/whatever.
11-05-2010, 07:37 PM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

This is out of point, but I found this statement on MTGS Landstill board pretty hilarious

"I also would like to note that when you play Humility against goblins giving them a land(Path to Exile) isn't as nearly as bad since Humility makes ringleaders and siege gang commanders pretty minimal against you. Also, if they K. Grip or Nature's Claim your Humility then the enchantment has done it's job."

Is it me or is there just so many things wrong with the statement?

- I think it is terribad to path gobs if that's your removal of choice. Gobs could use the land more than any aggro decks. It is risky to accelerate them to 3,4,5 mana into Matron/Warchief, Ringleader, Siege-gang. At least I don't think Landstill can handle it.

- I guess he feels this is fine because you play Humility, but that's assuming you can even resolve Humility against Gobs that run Wastelands/Ports, not to mention accelerating them to a Siege-Gang = 4 1/1s beating you with other dudes.

- If they K.Grip or Claim Humility then the enchantment has done its job. Well, it's only done the job if you follow up with a sweeper, otherwise I think the Enchantment killed you.. That's one of the problems I have with Humility. You can't rely on it to win-games. It buys you time, that's it. It's hell powerful card but the cost is great if you don't use it well, you lose games if you don't deal with the board after Humility hits.

I got a good laugh, but maybe I'm wrong on my evaluation, but source taken from MTGS Landstill thread lol. Also, people are throwing out way too many "<3" on the thread it's making my eyes bleed. Don't know why I went to post in the forum, never usually lurk there anyway although UW Landstill thread has been somewhat inactive recently. Guess the deck isn't as popular as it once was.
11-05-2010, 08:46 PM
Felidae

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

If you resolve Humility in g1 then it's pretty much game over for them (but serious, this statement might be true for any creature based deck without acces to any sort of enchantment removal pre board), however it's usual a good idea to look out for a Taiga, as not every Goblin deck is splashing green.
There are currently only 2 methods to avoid the Grip: 1. Boarding Humility out and bringing in more removal or 2. trying to lure their Grips out with Explosiv or Factorys.
On a side note: DoJ works damn well under Humility, but I don't want to start this discussion again.

PtE shouldn't be our removal of choice in the first place, we can even afford to give the Aggro Loam player 8+ life for each KotR or Terravore and still win the race, so why bothering about Path if we got our 4 copies of StP. I like PtE as an additional point revomal in situations where a singleton basic doesn't matter, i.e. in the mid- or lategame, but in the early it's usually a bigger advantage for our opponent (if we don't drop Standstill right after the Path).
11-05-2010, 10:18 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felidae

PtE shouldn't be our removal of choice in the first place, we can even afford to give the Aggro Loam player 8+ life for each KotR or Terravore and still win the race, so why bothering about Path if we got our 4 copies of StP. I like PtE as an additional point revomal in situations where a singleton basic doesn't matter, i.e. in the mid- or lategame, but in the early it's usually a bigger advantage for our opponent (if we don't drop Standstill right after the Path).

Although I'm not quite clear on what the point of this statement is, it looks to me like you are trying to say to not run or reduce the number of Paths we run because it can potentially end up hurting us? And if so, you'd be correct, but this is a calculated risk of play Path. Running 1-2 MD is not a bad idea, as having extra spot removal for creatures hard to kill with Explosives or Firespout is a perfectly reasonable. Try to save them for creatures you REALLY need to remove and the drawback is far less significant. Path just requires conservative or "greedy" play to gain full advantage.
I personally run 2 MD to supplement 2 MD Firespouts. Plus 1 in the board for matchups against Zoo, Merfolk, WG, and VV Sur.
11-06-2010, 04:35 AM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Path is good against certain decks. It's great against Merfolks but not good at all against Gobs unless Lackey is your worry, but with all those StP/EE/BEB, you should have no problem with Lackeys. I was mainly musing how he mentions path against Goblins is fine if you have Humility. Well if you have humility everything is fine barring you don't die when it gets gripped, but pathing Goblin is a terrible idea from experience, they're a weird aggro deck that actually could use landdrops, either to port you or play their expensive four-drops and 5-drops.

felidae: I've always missed Decree everytime I play a list without them, the card screams Landstill from every angle: Card draw, don't break Standstill, defensive position, offensive position. I love the card to bits, but my meta is unforgiving at the moment (tons of combo, at least 5 in 16 players play some form of combo or Emrakul/Progemitus deck). Otherwise I won't question decree much in general.

Also I had the funniest/coolest idea for Landstill (janky but it's kinda hilarious): Sun Titan in Landstill recur a Standstill while beating under one lol.
11-06-2010, 07:01 AM
Felidae

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metalwalker

- I think it is terribad to path gobs if that's your removal of choice. Gobs could use the land more than any aggro decks. It is risky to accelerate them to 3,4,5 mana into Matron/Warchief, Ringleader, Siege-gang. At least I don't think Landstill can handle it.

@ Mana Drain: I was referring to this statement, as it seemed to me like he was talking about 4 Pte's in the maindeck, instead of StP's, sorry if I got this wrong.
@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.
11-06-2010, 01:53 PM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

@ Metalwalker: Can you imagine him attacking and therefor reecuring another one... somehow I got the feeling to scribble down a version with this guy and test in on MWS to be either totaly disapointed or suprised.

Disappointed.

EDIT: In theory disappointed is what I meant to say, 4WW is not going to work out in Legacy, but you know what? I might test it in some jank build because who knew cards like Vengevine + Survival is so overpowering? I'm not saying Sun Titan + Standstill is nuts (since it still involves you having a good position but I just randomly saw the interaction and got one of those nerdgasm moments lol), but when I sat down and thought, "Hey our factories don't get StP'd when we're in control of the game and finally beating to win, so Sun Titan should survive as well?" until I realize that Factory and other cards serve more than just win-conditions for the deck lol. Just a thought, not a suggestion to the deck obviously :P He has vigilance to block too and recurs your lands/Crucible/EE@0 lol.
11-06-2010, 06:12 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metalwalker

EDIT: In theory disappointed is what I meant to say, 4WW is not going to work out in Legacy, but you know what? I might test it in some jank build because who knew cards like Vengevine + Survival is so overpowering? I'm not saying Sun Titan + Standstill is nuts (since it still involves you having a good position but I just randomly saw the interaction and got one of those nerdgasm moments lol), but when I sat down and thought, "Hey our factories don't get StP'd when we're in control of the game and finally beating to win, so Sun Titan should survive as well?" until I realize that Factory and other cards serve more than just win-conditions for the deck lol. Just a thought, not a suggestion to the deck obviously :P He has vigilance to block too and recurs your lands/Crucible/EE@0 lol.

I think anybody who saw Vengevine and played Magic for more than 3 months knew the card was insane. Sun Titan is an AMAZING card in Standard, but just not impacting enough to help in Legacy. I can imagine very few non-winmore situations where he would realistically be better than Elspeth. Even Frost Titan can be pitched to Force if you really want a Titan in your deck.
The only targets he has to return are lands, Standstills, and EE's for 0, plus a few flex cards different players may run, and none of those are very appealing for 6. Also, remember that every deck that runs removal will have it stockpiled, as we run no creatures other than Factory. So, he will likely be "4WW, Sorcery, Return target irrelevant card from your graveyard to play. Target opponent discards a removal spell." PW's and cards like Shackles just have more of an impact, earlier in the game, and are harder to remove.

Plus, 6 mana. I mean really, this is Legacy guys, and this type of time and mana doesn't come easy. Remember the adage, if it costs more than 3 mana, it better win you the game or stop you from losing the game. If it costs 5 or more, it better be able to be played for free, or give you head when it comes into play.
11-08-2010, 10:18 PM
JamieW89

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Hey, I'm planning to play this deck for the open dutch champs next weekend, and would like some comments/tips/SB plans on my current list.

The meta I'm predicting is:
Tier-1: Goblins, Tes, Vengevival
Tier-1.5: Landstill, Merfolk, Zoo
Tier-2: TT, CounterTop, The Rock

Maindeck: 60

Card Advantage & Quality: 9
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Sensei’s Divining Top

Removal & Board-Control: 13
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Path to Exile
2x Humility
1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgment

Counters: 10
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Win-Conditions: 4
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 24
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
1x Telemin Performance
11-08-2010, 11:39 PM
klaus

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@: JamieW89
Some thoughs:
You should consider Persih>Plague, since Goblins tend to run Grip plus 4 lords and Merfolk runs around 12-16? diminishing Plagues impact tremendously.
Perish would also have a much stronger impact against TT, Rock, Survival, Zoo and CT
It's true, your Merolk MU would suffer from that change, however serveral other MUs would be improved. Plus you'd really have to stick 2 Plagues in order to get profit.
---
You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.
Meddling Mage is still a strong choice and Tidehollow Sculler is also neat, coming in against control, too.
4 "Extract" could be feasible too, complementing Extirpate nicely.
---
Also, I'd cut 1 Top in favor of the 4th Standstill, since you always want it against most decks after STPing their turn 1 dude.

---
just my 2 pence.
11-09-2010, 06:22 AM
mossivo1986

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.

Klaus he is. Cannonist is the best option for directly hating general tendrills combo. Especially since the banning of MTutor.

Also, whats with the lack of 2x humility and or planar voids in peoples lists?
11-09-2010, 11:01 AM
JamieW89

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus

@: JamieW89
Some thoughs:
You should consider Persih>Plague, since Goblins tend to run Grip plus 4 lords and Merfolk runs around 12-16? diminishing Plagues impact tremendously.
Perish would also have a much stronger impact against TT, Rock, Survival, Zoo and CT
It's true, your Merolk MU would suffer from that change, however serveral other MUs would be improved. Plus you'd really have to stick 2 Plagues in order to get profit.
---
You seem to be sold on Canonist. I'm not positive though whether that guy's really the best combo hate out there.
Meddling Mage is still a strong choice and Tidehollow Sculler is also neat, coming in against control, too.
4 "Extract" could be feasible too, complementing Extirpate nicely.
---
Also, I'd cut 1 Top in favor of the 4th Standstill, since you always want it against most decks after STPing their turn 1 dude.

---
just my 2 pence.

Most goblin lists here are mono red, and if they splash they're usually RB. So I think I'd prefer Plague for the goblins and merfolk matches, as I expect quite a few.
And canonist is sick, it's pretty much game if it comes down and it doesn't get hit by duress either.
Going back to 4 Standstill is an option though, as the amount of merfolk seems to be slightly decreasing. But I don't really want to go to a singular top. Would it be worth it to cut a PtE, or should I keep playing 6 StP's?
11-09-2010, 12:01 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Klaus he is. Cannonist is the best option for directly hating general tendrills combo. Especially since the banning of MTutor.

Also, whats with the lack of 2x humility and or planar voids in peoples lists?

I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieW89

And canonist is sick, it's pretty much game if it comes down and it doesn't get hit by duress either.
Going back to 4 Standstill is an option though, as the amount of merfolk seems to be slightly decreasing. But I don't really want to go to a singular top. Would it be worth it to cut a PtE, or should I keep playing 6 StP's?

Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary. If you really want sweepers, play red. Firespout is better than EPlague in just about every possible matchup, unless the goblin decks you face play few Chieftains. Still, Firespout is an easier to cast WoG against Tribal, Survival, and kills almost everything vs. Zoo. Plus, REB in the board is additional Combo, Merfolk, and Control hate.

My overall suggestion is lower the mana-curve a bit. Red splash is just an idea, but 6 2WW spells is just brutal on your mana capabilities. Seeing as how you're trying to cast these 4 mana spells, I would swap 3 Wastes for 1 Flooded Strand, 1 Polluted Delta, and an additional U Sea.
You're meta has 5 decks in the Tier 1/2 range that require fast, efficient answers, and it looks like your taking a deck with a T2 mana-curve to a developed Legacy tournament. Also, you only have 17 U-cards to support Force in the MD. Post-side, that number will more-than-likely decrease even further. Decks like UG Survival can get away with running 15-16 U. We're a control deck, and we REALLY need a consistent FoW to stop T1 Vial, T2 Survival, and online Force all the time against TES. Every u-card you add to the deck (like Standstill and more Jaces) increases your chances of having the "OH SHI-, FORCE THAT" out that saves the day, instead of it being a 5-mana Counterspell.

Good luck!
11-09-2010, 04:27 PM
mossivo1986

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

I agree with Cannonist as a SB option for Combo. Most Tendrils lists in Legacy don't run Thoughtseize as more than a 1/2-of, so they can't Duress it and it can't be blasted with REB/Pyroblast. Just watch out for end-step Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/Disfigure. Those decks expect something like Meddling Mage from us and usually pack some removal for it post-side. Also, even though she isn't as effective of Vengevine hate as she used to be, she's still worth siding in for the match, forcing them to find their singleton Memnite/Shield Sphere.

I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.

When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.

Quote:

Jaimie, why not cut a DoJ for a Standstill? You're running 6 spells that cost 2WW, and that just seems way too many for any fast, developed metagame. You need more T1 and T2 plays, especially if Gobs and Merfolk are a big part of your meta. I mean really, how do you expect to cast those cards through Waste and Port from Gobs, and Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and of course Force from Merfolk. I see the 5 basics in your deck, but you're still running 7 colorless lands and only 6 fetch to fix your mana. Elspeth is a great PW and Humility is vulnerable, but game-breaking, so I understand running those 4. But the 2 WoG effects just seem unnecessary.

If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.

Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17
11-09-2010, 08:48 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

I think this is inherently the wrong way to play against vengevine survival. Your better off playing superior cards and keeping survival off the table.

When all else fails obviously humility is there to back a secondary plan. Or pleanty of stp effects, or extirpate in the wishboard if absolutely necessary.

You do realize that the point of the paragraph was that Cannonist is an effective ANTI-COMBO card, correct? The part about VV is just a bonus.
I don't play Cannonist, because she's rather narrow, slow, and there are better cards for both matchups, like Pithing Needle, Nature's Claim, Peacekeeper, Spell Pierce, REB, etc. But if you were playing with Cannonist in the SB, would you not side it in for something weaker in your MD because it's the "inherently wrong way to play against VV Survival"? Even though it is UNARGUABLY effective at slowing down VV? That's the way your statement comes-off.

Quote:

If the inherent problem your facing is disruption on your mana base and spell pierce and daze, then why arn't you running a card that fixes this problem or atleast solves part of the disruption early, while mantaining the boardstate. My buddy hitman has discussed the merits of playing talisman of progress; and strangely enough, its excellent.

Also six 4cc spells in a landstill arctype is not uncommon. Although I must say there was a time in which I played landstill that I had the ultra low curve average of 2.17

Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf. And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.

If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.
11-09-2010, 09:25 PM
Tinefol

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

The problem is, if this deck doesn't run 4cc bombs, it falls apart. Landstill can not win if it isn't generating card advantage. There aren't many 1-2cc spells that generate card advantage, only Standstill (which, quite frankly, sucks in Vial infested meta). You're clearly not going to win if all you're doing is 1/1 trades (and 2 for 1 in case of FoW), simply because other decks run more threats and have less lands.

Running something like 12 stp effects IS NOT going to work, nope (even if you could).

Wrath of God is still a solid card that often wins games. In fact, I'd run it before I ever consider running JTMS. Yes, the curve has been lowered, and many decks require immediate answers, thus we are no longer running Akroma's Vengeances and Nevynirral's Disks. I myself run 4x stp 3pte 4x Snare for this very reason. But you really can't cut on the cards which provide CA and save your ass.

Anyways, the deck doesn't get into a lot of top8s nowadays, for the very reasons you described. However, if not for its 4cc cards, it would've sucked even more.
11-09-2010, 09:34 PM
JamieW89

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Thanks for the insightful replies :)

My main concern with replacing the Wasteland and adding a 4th standstill is that it is somewhat contradictional. Wasteland does make standstill a stronger card.
No wastelands makes Standstill very weak against Merfolk and the mirror (unless I have a top out and they have nothing yet). Wasteland has also won me a fair few games. However after cutting Vindicate my LD option has become weaker and it is more often used to destroy manlands, ports, keeping an opponent off a color etc.
However, only 4 colorless lands would make my manabase more stable (I think alot of goblin players don't play ports here, just wastes).

WoG is a nice out, it's almost never a bad draw in the mid-late game. Maybe 1 is enough, but I'm not completely sure on this one either. I could even cut both, but I really like having it as an out to alot of bad situations.

As for Canonist, it's by far my favourite card against TES. This is a very hard matchup preboard, but doable postboard with the canonists. I side it in against VV if I can find stuff to side out as it's not bad in the matchup. The Extirpates and Needles go in first though, and I don't have that much to take out (what would you side out?).

I'm not really considering a red splash just for firespout, I think I'd rather ran no sweepers at all. Although EE on 4 is another advantage.
11-09-2010, 10:43 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@Tinefol: I'm not saying you can't run big-mana spells, just not 8-10 of them. Do you see the difference? And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy. So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill. But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.

And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.

@Jamie: I've got news for you, Standstill is terrible against Merfolk no matter what. Why? Because they run 3-4 Mutas, 4 Waste, AND 4 Vial. This is just one of those matchups where Standstill is only nice to see when you need a card to pitch to Force. Please, don't drop Standstill against Folk, unless you have 2+Manlands and they have no Vial and no Manlands/Wastes. I've been punished for this same mistake many times, and it just comes from getting greedy when you no you shouldn't.

Regardless, I'm tired of arguing about the big spells, and you're going to run what you want to run regardless of my counterpoints. I do suggest running a Tropical Island in the MD. This is a klaus signature special that I've been using for many months, and it has been mostly positive. It allows EE at 4 and 2 Grip in the SB, which handle a lot of randomness and are just plain versatile cards. EE at 4 is especially important if you have other LS decks in your meta. Blowing up opposing Jaces and Elspeths is the difference between winning and losing this matchup, and is a great tool on your side. I would say try it for a wasteland, but you know where this is going...
11-10-2010, 12:05 AM
mossivo1986

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Mana Drain were on the same logic. Although I don't see too many cards in landstills natural shell that I would take out for cannonist if it was an option.

I think your vastly underrating Talisman.

Quote:

Six 4cc spells USED to be relatively common. But we're in the year 2010 now. The format has sped-up, with or without MT being banned. Merfolk is a Tier 1 deck now, not the dark-horse it used to be. VV Sur puts out fast, uncounterable damage with u-disruption to back it up. Goblins is still running 4 Waste/3-4 Port. Even The Rock is going to be discarding answers and blowing up our land while beating down with a Knight or Goyf.

Merfolk hasn't really changed in the landstill match-up minus running pierce instead of stifle, and another lord since I last played landstill. I think they used to run snare as well, but that was still in the development stages of the deck when snare was the sickness in the format. Goblins is goblins, and the matchup remains relatively the same as it used to be. When I last played landstill they had just succesfully figured out that chieften was a real card for the deck and that instigator wasn't where they wanted to go. The testing for these decks are about the same as they used to be. Still very aggressive decks that you need to be able to answer to have success in this format.

Now let me be clear, just because I stopped playing the deck in tournaments doesn't mean that I dropped the deck completely. I've been working with Mastershake and Pattrick, and Hitman82, and several other pilots on testing and integrating a solid landstill model into the metagame for a while. The format is not "faster" then it was when I left. It actually is slower for various reasons. Survival being the top deck in the format right now indicates that the format is in fact slower then it was in the days of cat zoo merfolk gobbos and combo. It is in fact slower as zoo is now having more success with "big Zoo" merfolk plays a lord that they invest mana into after they cast it, and are now splashing colors regularly (they weren't doing this really at all before)
and even countertop is running 4-5 colors pretty regularly (although not as much countertop has been seen outside of thopterfoundry combo)

the bottom line is this; Landstill is in good shape with the current format, no combo, really no dredge/ speed decks with price of progress IE cat zoo. All in all its a ripe format and time for landstill to clean up. Now we just have to devise a shell that actually works. Or just wait until Vengevine/ survival gets banned?

And the slower CB decks (where running high-cc spells was profitable for us) are a fraction as prevalent as they were a year ago.

If your metagame gives you the slack necessary to run many high-cc spells and random, inconsistent, and easily-killed stuff like Talisman of Progress, more power to you. But in a developed metagame, with many Tier 1/2 decks represented, you're big-mana spells will more than likely be: 1) Spell Pierced/Dazed, 2) Forced, 3) Thoughtsiezed, 4) Griped/Bounced, or 5) Sitting in your hand as multiple Vengevines/Merfolk/Goblins/Tarmogoyfs/Tombstalkers beat you to death.[/QUOTE]
11-10-2010, 04:55 AM
Tinefol

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mana Drain

@Tinefol: I'm not saying you can't run big-mana spells, just not 8-10 of them. Do you see the difference?

You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?

Quote:

And 1for1ing' then dropping Standstill or Jace is a very solid strategy.

Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.

Quote:

So solid, it's what winning Landstill lists(few and far between) have been doing for a while. Of course you need to hit CA in Landstill to win, that's why we run cards like EE, Elspeth, Jace, and Standstill.

Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?

Quote:

But you can't expect "I'll just live to 4 mana and win with all my powerful cards!" either. Because you won't, or your stuff will get countered/discarded, barring bad draws on your opponents part. This isn't the format where all you had to fear is T1 Lacky, go. And every deck and their brother has cards for us, like Choke, B2B, Grip, Needle, etc.

I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?

Quote:

And please, quote me on this: Jace is the best win-condition Landstill has ever had and most likely, ever will have. Seriously, if you've played Jace for more than 3 games, you know this already. Not including him in your list for reasons other than budget constraints, is most likely incorrect. Especially over WoG. Against decks where you actually WANT WoG, Firespout is it for 2R. Easier to cast mana-wise in color and quantity, and 98% of the time, just as effective. Big creatures are what we have Swords and Path for.

I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).

You propose Firespout. Clearly, IF I'm playing Spout, I'm playing more Jaces and no WoGs. But I don't want to play Firespout. Because it isn't even close to 98% of WoG effectivenes. I've played Spout a lot and clearly I didn't like for a bunch of reasons:
* it makes you run 3rd color extensively - putting constraints on your mana base and doesn't let you runn more basics
* it makes you commit in your splash color early. With UW I have the luxury of fetching all basics. With Spouts, I have to get Volcanic, which IS going to be wasted
* it sucks facing a bunch of big dudes like Goyf/KoTR. And sometimes you don't have enough STP effects. I have 7, mind you.
* it sucks against Merfolk. They either have a bunch of lords and don't care, or they waste your Volcanic and beat in. In fact, it even makes their S/B Blasts a real blasts.
* does nothing against Progenitus and Emrakul
* needs green to hit flyers - and that's relevant - coralhelm, tombstalker, blossom tokens, wondered crap, Clique, etc
11-10-2010, 06:32 AM
mossivo1986

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I do think the idea of the off color fourth land is decent. I've seen it work. Chris (mastershake) Team Bad Guys has used it. Oh I so promo'd the team there <----- See it?

Chris has done extremely well with the 4c variant. Now do I believe Landstill should be running 2 grips off color in its side and firespouts main? Absolutely not. That sounds like the nightmare that I don't want to dream on. While I am fond of the "always running the better card" approach, I feel like your taking it to an extreme by promoting an even worse landbase then I had imagined to reasonably cast such spells.

As for Jace the Mind Sculpter. I still believe FOF is the stronger choice. I've tested it, you brainstorm once, maybe twice or return a guy, and then it dies from all the games i've seen. Now i'm not saying it's not excellent. Anything that allows Landstill to play draw go and win the game is clearly excellent. But your not accounting for

-Aggresive decks that give jace the middle finger.
-Combo that clearly doesn't care about your ultra slow counterbalance.
-Control, which as you said is going to run cards that inherently can take care of jace, IE playing their own jace, vindicate (not really appearing lately) and other such answers like EE, just running more countermagic then you. The list goes on. Now this can be said for a variety of cards, but in the control machup decree clearly has an advantage over jtms, and elspeth is usually a bit better once resolves in a critical gamestate.

Jace is a fine card, but no more then 2, usually a 1 of. I think it follows the same logic as FOF, and sometimes can take your third FOF slot in redundant models.

Tinefol. Most of the crap you mentioned that firespout doesn't answer is stuff that is high on the priority of stp and path anyways. Wog is clearly the superior card when it comes to people who want to have answers for the big picture, IE a GP setting. Firespout seems to be more of a defined metagame/ side in answer. And even then it feels like from all the people who talk about it peacekeeper just seems stronger.

Now as for lists, this is currently what im toying with for fun. I'd clearly like to state that im testing different utility packages and seeing if they work. So far so good, but I need to do additional testing against the format before I really am happy.

also note 2. Top will probobly not be making my cut.

// Lands
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Island (2)
2 [B] Plains (1)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
1 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
2 [B] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

I'd like to note that I couldnt find room for some of the natural selection that I usually choose IE FOF. Jace got the autoinclude because I needed a win condition and not extra card draw.

Missing 1 decree has been a pain, but I am told that it''s kind of bad in the meta right now.
11-10-2010, 12:04 PM
GGoober

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@Moss: I think it's time for Disk to have a comeback. With all the permission/removal package, stalling the game into a Disk can be game-winning, although I feel that the list still needs 3 EE for sake of having a strong fight against Zoo/Gobs/Merfolks (vial mainly comes into mind). Maybe cut 2 tops for the 3rd EE and 2nd Decree? I've always played with/without 2 Tops, and I love them, but always felt that the list could do without them i.e. a list without top could do just as well except you don't get the security of having top especially when your opponents are Topping every turn.

I've been thinking of moving my Crucible to the SB and bring it in only against LD matchups. I've thought about Decree every now and then, but it always boils down to the 2nd-3rd Jace v.s. 2nd-3rd FoF. Recently, after looking at Jace v.s. Fact or Fiction, as much as I hate to say, the power level of FoF in Landstill outweighs Jace. Unlike Countertop, we can't slow roll and take things for granted, if we do we are severely punished. The deck doesn't have the engines like Countertop to lock people out. Landstill sometimes does that but more often it's a deck based on stabilizing, then capitalizing on huge card/board advantage. Cards that serve these purpose comes to my mind: Standstill v.s. Top, Decree v.s. Elspeth, Fact or Fiction v.s. Jace. We'll start noting that FoF, Standstill, Decree fits in a landstill theme much more than Top, Elspeth, Jace. However, Elspeth and Jace are making their way as MD'd 2-offs because they are simply strong cards in the format.

However, I am re-evaluating FoF in Landstill, and I personally think it's a mistake to drop them in the 75. I am playing with 2 FoF again. The card does much more for Landstill than Jace in a losing position and does more if not the same in a winning position. Take Walton's report (Mananation) for example. That single 'misplayed' EOTFOFYL still won him the game and because the card is so fucking broken, most opponents will do a 4-1 split of Jace v.s. 4 cards and you just pick up the 4 cards because it's 4-fucking cards that are good in your deck?? Also, Walton mentioned he had the Jace in hand, so it was really a 5 for 1 when he played FoF. No card in MTG gives that much advantage than FoF in landstill, although Landstill is usually the underdog in the format that is trying to beat the powerhouses out there.

I would like to hear more feedback about Walton's 4c Landstill. Somehow I feel that green for Deeds isn't justified although Green for Grips maybe especially in the Wishboard (I'm a fan of Ray of Revelation in green Landstill builds for the current meta i.e. countertop is unpopular deck now, and ray is faster against most threats Moon/B2B/Survival/Enchantresspwnage). I feel that Disk is old-tech but has the same speed/vulnerability as Deeds i.e. it gives the opponent 1 turn to react, but Disk is less mana-intensive, freeing up MORE mana the turn after when you activate, which is important to follow up with a threat or counterspell whereas Deeds you are short on mana for that turn. Disk can be recurred but that's an added bonus but I feel it is easier on the manabase without having to go into 4 colors.

@Anyone who doubts canonist, I think aside from Meddling Mage, she maybe the better answer against not only combo, but enchantress (problematic matchup).

IDEA:
Moss you mentioned Talisman in Landstill and I have been exploring that avenue in Landstill but have not tested it. Particularly I have been working with Mox Diamond/Crucible but they end up being terrible due to the wasted slots of Mox Diamond and putting a strain on land count in the deck. However, I recently was thinking about not Talisman, but Mind Stones in the deck. It speeds you up a turn (which is huge) but cantrips when needed later on. It taps for colorless but any deck with a solid manabase should not run into too many colored mana problems. The fact that it cantrips is why I feel it is stronger over Talisman. What do you think about the idea since I have not tested mana acceleration in Landstill, how many slots would you play and which slots would you play them in?
11-10-2010, 01:01 PM
Mana Drain

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Quote:

You stated that even 6 4cc spells is about too much. Now its 8-10? Personally I run 7: 2Elspeth, 2WoG, 2 Humility and 1JTMS (I would've liked 3, but I can't afford to run nine 4cc cards). And JTMS is the card I'm going to cut, since it has the least impact on the board if i'm in a bad shape. Assume you face 3 creatures on opponent's end and you need an out. Would you want that out to be JTMS?

Let me put it this way, I feel as 5 4cc+ spells is pushing it. I currently run 4 (4 JaceTMS), and am satisfied with my ability to cast him. I understand big-spell setups like 2 Elspeth, 1 Jace, 2 Humility, but it feels to me like the Humility does the same thing as WoG in you're setup. In fact, if running 2 Humility, Firespout looks to be at an all-time high for effectiveness, having mad synergy with Humility and being a turn faster. WoG and Humility take up the same spot in my opinion. At the 3 creatures statement, this is why I run firespout and 4 EE. If I let my opponent get out multiple Tombstalkers, Knights, Gofys, whatever big creatures they have, I should have mulled, drew terribly, or just made some major misplays.

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Except Standstill sucks. Its nearly unplayable in my meta of Vial and Wasteland. Its horrible, horrible against Merfolk and Dredge. Awful vs Goblins. It often sucks if you are going second. But that's much as we got.

You know you don't need a manland out to cast Standstill right? Throw it down on an empty board and watch the game slow to a crawl, which is what we want. Most opponents will do everything in their power to stop you from drawing 3, and halt their gameplan as a result. Also, Standstills power increases exponentially if you run multiple Tops.

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Somehow you don't consider Humility and WoG a card there?

I do consider them both as card advantage, but feel there are better cards to run that I feel have more impact on the game or allow me to win faster (a major concern when playing with 40 minute rounds). As I said earlier, Humility and WoG use the same slots in my deckbuilding. I find Humility to be the far stronger and harder to deal with card, but still find other cards to be more versatile and consistent.

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I just don't see what you propose? Running less powerful cards so that you win less?

Running faster cards that allow you to take advantage of your CA spells quicker and stablilize sooner. My counter-point would be you running more powerful cards that you might not get to play so you die faster. Just because cheaper and easier to cast spells exist, doesn't mean they are less effective or powerful. You'll be looking pretty stupid when you tap out on T4 to cast your WoG and I tap my Island to Spell Pierce it, then swing in for some pain next turn with my creature deck (Merfolk, VV Sur). If you wait until T5/T6 to cast your big-spells to avoid Pierce/Daze, that's just more damage your opponents creatures put on you. Meanwhile I'll be resolving my Firespout on T4 with Spell Pierces of my own as protection.

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I own Jaces, I've played with them and yet, they are not that good in UWx shell as they're in UBG(w) shell. And If I have a choice between WoG and Jace, I'm choosing WoG. You may think its incorrect, but in reality, WoG turns some games sideways (I've stated why before).
(list of reasons)

I'll go through your points one by one:
*Third color extensively? I run 3 Volcs MD, to support my 2 Firespout MD, along with 1 Firespout and 3 REBs SB and I have NO problem getting my red. I hope you don't consider 3 lands "extensive" commitment to a color?
*Actually, I don't use my fetches until I need to. Saving them to find whatever color you need is a relevant tactic when playing this deck. When I need to fetch red for FS, I just do. Otherwise, they sit on the table, ready to provide a shuffle for Top/BS, safe from Waste, and effectively tap for any color of mana I need them to. And do you know what Volcanic Island is when you don't need red? Non-basic Island that pumps EE. Seriously, decks can only run 4 Wasteland, and more than likely, won't draw all 3-4 of them in the first 5 turns. If they waste a Volc, I have 8 fetches and 2 other Volcs to help.
*I lol'd at this one: Firespout sucks against Merfolk? Really? Now you're just trolling. I've stated this before and I'll state this again: if you let Merfolk get 3 lords out without Pathing/StPing/EEing/countering one them, you should have mulled the hand, have TERRIBLE luck, or you really don't have the skill necessary to play LS. Otherwise, Firespout is a 3 mana WoG vs. Merfolk.
*You're correct that it doesn't do anything against Prog or Spaghetti Monster. This is an acceptable risk that I take when playing Firespout. I accept a much better Tribal and Zoo matchup, to have a weaker Pro-Bant and SnT matchup, which are less common in a fast metagame. If you're meta has both of these decks in substantial quantities, WoG/Humility may be a solid choice. Also, both of those creatures only come out with the aid of a spell, and I run Spell Pierce because I hear it is pretty good against non-creature spells.
*Another reason I run singleton Tropical Island. And no, it doesn't significantly weaken the manabase to Wasteland. Also, saving Swords/StP for things Firespout can't pick up helps, and is another part of solid control play and planning ahead.

@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.
11-10-2010, 05:25 PM
mossivo1986

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

@ Moss: While Planar Void is simply amazing vs. Loam decks and Dredge, I find Extirpate to be more versatile and useful in a wide variety of matchups, while still being effective grave-hate. I don't know your SB strategy, so maybe you keep the wishes in against grave-decks, but if not, I would change 2 Voids to Extirpates. It still neuters Loam decks and is somewhat effective vs. Dredge, but straight kills VV Sur and is a great surprise for the mirror and TES/Storm. Nailing Force or a Win-Con from opposing LS decks is huge, and seeing what they have in hand/deck is also a bonus. Against TES, blowing up a DRitual and seeing what they have in store for you allows you to make adjustments to your gameplan, and may just nab something out of their hand. Maybe just personal preference I guess. Also, I'm glad to see Eternal Dragon still being played. Forcing opponents to keep in StP, guaranteeing land-drops, creating shuffles, and being an inevitable win-condition is pretty good I hear.[/QUOTE]

void handles the nonsense I care about. Nuetoring the deck that im already bringing in cards for and have maindecked cards for doesn't seem like a good idea. Changing my graveyard hate to additionally fight it seems like a bad idea as well. I don't feel like pate is good enough to handle the graveyard slot.

Void handles EVERYTHING. Hitman asked me if I had ever cast void against canadian thresh, and I said no; then proceded to die laughing as their 8 win conditions just sit there like zoo animals.

Combo is addressed just fine with Cannonists. Sure they may be running grip, wipe away. But the inherent problem is that if they bother running those cards against you then clearly they are having problems in more areas then just dealing with cannnonist. On the other side of things IF they get to B wish for an answer it was dead anyways. You still run an equivelent four, followed by a clock, with standstill and top? This should be enough pressure to keep them at bay. Frankly im more worried about mass goblin tokens or the god hand then if they can actuallly try to be interactive with me. Pate is alright against combo, but void still has warrant in more bad matchups.

Dragon is actually kind of bad right now but im overextending my colorless sources in this list so I feel its necessary. it is the 61st card.

Dragon is typically better in legacy formats where stifle is a big deal. I actually wish that was the case right now!
11-10-2010, 06:09 PM
JamieW89

Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Compared to my earlier UWb list I could also drop black and add red. I'd run 2 Firespouts main instead of WoGs and 1 side (or should I run 4 divided over main and sb?). I'd play 2 volcanics which all of my 7 fetches can get. I'd still be running wastelands.
I'd play Peacekeepers in the side, which is a nice out to VV and Merfolk. But people play a fair bit of goblins. Should I add 2 Blue Blasts side?

I'd be running this sb:
4x Canonist
3-4x Peacekeeper
3x Needle
2-3 Blue Blast
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

Or do you think a 4c version is better? With Extirpate and Plague side, but no black main. You can get EE@4 and some nice sb cards, but you go down to only 4-5 colorless so your standstill is slightly worse. I'd run 1 Sea, 1 Scrubland and 2 Volcanics (4 Strand, 3 Delta as fetches). Red would be used for 2:1 Firespouts and EE@4 and nothing else.

A sideboard would be about this: (Or should I play peacekeepers in this as well?)
4x Canonist
3x Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Needle
1x Fspout
1x Telemin Performance

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