Printable View
you can lose to grindstone even w/ progenitus. his trigger goes on the stack, but the grindstone has to finish resolving, once grindstone grinded away your library they can pop tormod's crypt/relic in response to progenitus trigger. then all you get left is progenitus in your library, draw him next turn and lose the turn after.
Progenitus has no trigger. It's a replacement effect. The milling happens, and then Progs is the last card left in your library, since the "mill two" can't be satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
If you run two of them, the game is a draw due to an unbound loop.
Yes, as Nightmare stated, Progenitus' ability is actually a replacement ability, not a triggered ability (unlike Gaea's Blessing).Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
With Gaea's Blessing, they can indeed Crypt/Relic you while the Blessing trigger is on the stack and it would actually remove the Blessing as well.
Since Progenitus' ability is a replacement effect, nothing ever goes on the stack. His ability replaces the "put into the graveyard" and instead, he's shuffled back into your library.
With Survival in play, you can just keep Survivaling Progenitus back into your library, keeping you alive indefinitely, but again you still need to win the game off of what you have left in play and in your hand.
That would be hilarious to pull against a grindstone player... oh, you just gave me the 1-0-1 victory b/c you assembled your combo game 2 :cry: ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
Thanks for the match :tongue: .
The score is 1-0-1, and you have to play until someone scores the 2-x (or 'till time). I think forcing your opponent to actually perform endless millings is stalling. You can come to ridicilous scores like 2-1-12 or something.
Anyway, back to the elves.
dont forget that in builds with Squee, you get 2 cards back per turn :D
Has anyone tryed vexing shusher in the maindeck ?
It seems to me it makes sure you resolve survival / natural order what makes the deck win. I am trying them as a two off maindeck. The deck has a lot of mana so it can easily pay one more.
Counterbalances decks are not as easy as it seems/claimed. Decks like nassif's build can be hard sometimes if you don't have 2 or more bombs.
Shusher helps a lot there.
Others problematic matchups are red/threshold which are answered with goyf+witness in sb.
Standstill with humility is also hard there I have witness+grip which is not always enough in sb.
Choke is not so good cause a lot of decks are playing trygon predator/grip and standstill can ignore it with basic plain/scrubland then EE it away or still cast humility/wrath/sword.
I played this deck at a local tourney (52 ppl) and ended up 17 or 18.
I'm not gonna write a whole report, just the main things:
my deck was the list that DI played at chicago, minus 2 vanquishers + 1 mirror entity and 1 messenger
SB was same except that i played thorn of amethyst instead of relic/graveyard hate.
my wins:
- RGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (first game was long after he started off with confidant, crusher and tarmogoyf in play ...)
- 43 lands (actually it was 32 lands, but do not know the name, more on this matchup later, cause i also lost to it)
- hmmm, others i do not remember immediately, but the most interesting things are the losses:
my losses (and draw):
- 43 lands (again, it was 32 lands) i gave up the first match after he had glacial chasm continually coming in play and killing of my creatures with barb ring ... game 2 i raced him, game 3 we went in time and drawed ... (it was one of the most boring matches I ever played ... if it wasn't for one point, i would have dropped)
in this matchup, progenitus was super, because untargetable by maze of ith ... BUT, glacial chasm is hell, i had no way to remove it or do anything about it (that is where relic or other graveyard comes in handy, but i was lacking it ;-))
- enchantress: game 1 i got him on 2, but he got his protection enchantment and could not take any more damage ... game 2 was even worse, turn 3 he dropped a moat ... i only got krosan grip after he already had his other protection enchantment and he went for the win
I am not sure what to do against this deck (besides racing), i think in this case ethersworn canonist would be superb
- survival deck with noble hierarch and spellstutter sprite (amongst others) game 1 i was mana screwed he drew noble and survival and killed me with a single spellstutter sprite (and 3 hierarchs) game 2 was better, but i did not go fast enough and he killed me with a spellstutter sprite and 4 hierarchs
I think the last one, I should have won if I had mulled more agressively, enchantress was almost an auto loss and the 43 land deck is really hard without graveyard hate.
In the whole tourney, i did not use my thorns (did not see any combo) and will switch them for relic (or other graveyard hate)
choke did not do what it is supposed to do, it can be GG, but you have to cast it at the right moment and mostly blue players will anticipate on it post side or just play more green (with noble hierarch), maybe i will drop the chokes and replace them with canonists, but not sure yet.
Sorry for the unstructured post ;-)
why doesnt anyone seem to use the glimpse version?
I'm not all that sure. I do know cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and general (free) couterspells hose this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
For me personally, I've tested the Glimpse version and didn't like it. I play this deck mainly because playing a decent deck in which you can beat down with elves is way too tempting.
The Glinpse deck seems better against anything that's not Blue, and against Blue decks it can go aggro with Natural Order into Regal Force or Progenitus, and then 4 Jittes out of the board. Survival just seems weaker and less resiliant than Glimpse, maybe that's just me though. I tested with both lists and I was always a lit more afraid of Glimpse than Survival (I was piloting Fish). Glimpse seems to have an easier time swarming the board, something a Blue deck cannot handle at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atwa
then why do we see survival T8 and glimpse not?
Mostly cause I've never seen anyone play Glimpse....Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
There is no reason to be hostile, I am only commenting on something I've noticed, if you don't agree that's cool, but that doesn't mean that you get to be an ass.
From looking at the decks on Deckcheck that play Glimpse, but not Survival, here's my impression:
Glimpse seems like it's a little faster, but more succeptible to hate (Chalices, Red Sweepers) since it runs more of the 1 drop Elves and doesn't run the 8x Lords that Survival Elves does.
Also, I see many mono green versions, which prevent you from using Mirror Entity or more importantly Gaddock Teeg/Absolute Law in the board.
To me, Survival of the Fittest is actually less weak and inconsistant. If you land a Survival, you can pretty much mine for whatever you want now. If you find yourself in an attrition war, the card advantage from Squee can win the game for you.
The Survival Elves variant also can run the Natural Order/Progenitus Combo, which from my experience, can steal a lot of Game 1's.
Just my observations and keep in mind, I really like the Survival version, myself. Being able to tutor up whatever combo/toolbox piece I might need is a real selling point for me.
I played this list at a small local tourney last weekend (trying to expand my horizons in terms of decks I'm comfortable playing) losing a single match all day. I got the list from thebirdman (who I assume got it from Di) and didn't change the maindeck a whole lot (but a newer sb was used).
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Glowrider
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw
relevant changes (not counting the sb anti-combo stuff):
main: -1 WRV, +1 Gaddock Teeg
sb: -3 choke, -1 kgrip, -1 empyrial archeangel, +3 jitte, +1 shusher
I played against Merfolk (twice), some sort of ritual combo, Faerie Stompy, Thrash, and CB Thresh with the loss coming in three games to Thrash after a lot of burn, counters, and some timely firespouts.
I expected quite a bit of Ritual Combo in the form of TES or ANT to show up given that I was loaning out a storm deck and knew other storm players in the area. As such, I cut a WRV for a maindeck Gaddock Teeg. I managed to Natural Order into it turn 2 against storm and managed to steal the matchup 2-0.
The Jittes replaced Chokes because I believed that I'd rather just be killing merfolk than making them rely on vial. I knew a lot of merfolk and other aggro was showing up, and jitte seemed like it would be just another bomb that Thresh/Merfolk/etc have to kill to beat me (the same as choke e0xcept that it actually puts them out of the game, not merely acting as a speedbump). I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on Jitte, and while I don't know that Choke is the card that it wants to replace, the Jittes were absurd in the board through the event and in testing lead up to the event. Choke might be more relevant in metagames where big mana CB decks (like Nassif.dec) and Landstill exist, but it seemed that it's not necessary in my metagame.
The Shusher was probably a mistake. I like the idea of Shusher, and it actually worked really well the one time I found it, but replacing Krosan Grip was a huge problem. After playing some more games, especially the tournament games, I was often wishing for the ability to more easily find that second kgrip. Maybe it should be a 2-of replacing something else (maybe I'm devoting too much room to the combo matchup).
I cut the Angel from the board because she never really seemed to do anything. If Progenitus wasn't going to win me the game, Imperious Perfect making a million dudes, or Elvish Champion to make my guys unblockable was generally good enough to win. I don't think the Angel's necessary.
Nice mini-report, emidnl.
How is Tarmogoyf in this deck? I really dislike the antisynergy with the rest of the deck, but I guess there are some strong points. My list atm:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Harmonic Sliver (instead of Viridian Zealot)
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mirror Entity
1 Wood Elves
1 Progenitus
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
Changes:
-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg/WRV
-1 WRV
-1 Forest
+1 Savannah
+1 Taiga
+1 Mirror Entity
+2 Wirewood Symbiote
+1 Q Ranger
+1 Wood Elves
In the little testing I did, I comboed out via Mirror Entity one third of the time, therefor earning its place.
Here's my list (very similar to Elf_Ascetic's list) I've been playing. I won a 14 man tournament on Sunday with it, going 5-1.
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Messenger
2 Mirror Entity
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Anger
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Progenitus
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest
My Squee didn't come in the mail yet and noone had one I could borrow, so I was playing +1 Symbiote instead of Squee, but ideally, Squee would be in there. This was actually the first tournament I played where I stalled out a few times and actually wished I had Squee in the deck!
I beat Dragon Stompy, Rg Goblins (they actually outraced my T2 Progenitus one game!), Merfolk, Ubr Painter, UGw Thresh. Lost one match in the Swiss rounds to another Ugw Thresh deck.
I didn't run into any combo, which made me happy since in my experience this deck has a terrible matchup against combo, even with Thorns and Gaddock Teeg in the board.
I really love playing the deck though because of the ability to aggro, combo, fetch whatever answers you need.
Harmonic Sliver (I was testing it instead of Zealot) was great. His 3 CMC makes it harder for CB to hit and since most of the time you're immediately popping your Zealot anyways, Harmonic Sliver actually costs less mana to use, plus nets you a guy. Another bonus my friend pointed out to me is that under Engineered Plague, the Sliver also survives from not being an Elf.
Wren's Run Packmaster and Thornweald Archer would probably be the next to go for me, but I'd probably keep the Archer around if I saw more Tombstalkers. Packmaster has just been unimpressive for me because I'm usually pitching it or just grabbing the Mirror Entity combo instead of it.
The Sylvan Messenger has been meh as well, but I like the 1 of just in case I need immediate card draw shenanigans with Symbiote instead of incremental draw with Squee. He does seem like a win-more card though.
I disliked Sylvan Messenger because of the low elfcount. Basicly it says: draw 2 Elves, 3 if your lucky, and 1 if not. When I needed more creatures for survival, I couldn't rely on it, like goblins can rely on their ringleader.
Harmonic Sliver is great because it's a sliver, therefor killing Engineered Plague. Zealot cannot do that. It's 3CC for CB is better too.
I used WR-PM several times to give me more (hehe, a zillion more) creatures. I had the Entity - Priest - Symbiote loop but no more creatures to survival away, while he had 6 goblins.
How is Birchlore Rangers? I use Wood Elves, because that one can give me haste as well, but it's a really cluncky card when drawn.
Ever gotten manascrewed with "only" 15 lands?
Tarmogoyf was really good for me. He helped avoid most of the mass removal that was sent my way, provided a quick survival pseudo-combo (finding 2-3 hasty goyfs was a decent backup plan) that avoided engineered plague, and proved to be an efficient as both a bomb after a countered threat and a large enough threat to act as bait (letting me resolve Natural Order or Survival). I don't think I could consider playing a build of the deck without at least 3 Tarmogoyf in it, and the only reason I'd cut the 4th would be to try out something like WRPackmaster.
When I fought Goblins, although they sometimes had more creatures than me, they were also playing Rg, so I'd just grab a Champion and Forestwalk over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
I play in a meta that sees Moons and Wastelands running around, so I've liked the Birchlore to give me a source of white mana when I'm Savannahless. Also, Birchlore has a bit of nice synergy with Imperious Perfects (make some tokens, tap them for more mana). Wood Elves is nice for the ability to grab a Taiga, but I've really hated that 3 mana cost.
Funny you should mention being mana screwed. I'm running 16 lands, but since I have all those 1 drops (7 mana elves, 2 Quirion Ranger) and 4 ESG, as long as I have 1 land and one of the 1 drop elves (Quirion Ranger gets you 2 mana on turn 2 off of a single land), I actually very rarely have run into mana problems.
The one match I lost involved me mulliganing down to 4 (after seeing no 1 mana elves and I swear I got the same terrible hand twice of seeing Packmaster, Progenitus, Natural Order, Natural Order) with no lands, then next game having to mulligan down to 5.
Other than that game though, I have rarely gotten mana screwed (in fact, I find myself oddly mana flooded more than mana screwed).