[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by Ragnarok

I think Rhox Warmonk, fills the same gap as worship does. It does not make you win the game, it only makes it harder for the opponnent to win the game. It's a worse creature then both Tarmogoyf and Coatl. In my previous post I suggested adding Servant/Grindstone to improve the aggro match-up. It is an instant win, instead of slowly gaining life or compensating with the life loss and after that doing what??? Besides they probably play more creatures then we do.

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Are you serious? You do know that Rhox is a creature, right? It can attack, therefore winning you the game.

Now, what aggro are you talking about? Zoo? Gaining life is important. One attack negates a Bolt or a Nacatl attack. Decks like Zoo need to win fast or they lose. Rhox War Monk at least slows them down so we can set up Counterbalance or start controlling the game. If he goes unanswered, he will win the game because he is bigger than all of their threats (with the exception of Goyf).

I really wish I could run 10 Tarmogoyfs, but sadly, I feel that is a losing strategy. Is saying a creature is "worse than Goyf" even a bad thing? Every creature is "worse than Goyf" at being an efficient beater.

By racing we mean: they swing with their 4/5 Goyf, we obviously don't block. We swing back with Warmonk, undoing 3 of the 4 damage, but dealing 3 ourselves. Thus, the guy with the Goyf can, ceteris paribus, not attack, because he will loose that game.

That said, I too find Warmonk quite clunky, but especially against decks like Zoo or GoyfSligh he really shines over other creatures (like coatl) that might be in his place instead. Coatl kills one of their guys each turn, so does Monk, but lifelink often ensures you can't get swarmed. Again, often there is no realistic attack the opponent can mount.

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Originally Posted by Ragnarok

Rhox is not big enough to race an average sized goyf, an average sized goyf will eat Rhox for breakfast. We play land, creatures, instants, artifacts, enchantments and sorcery's. It won't take long and goyf will be 4/5, and with Coatl in play you probably will be at an disadvantage.

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When facing a 4/5 Goyf attacking you, you win the race with RWM due to the life swing beeing in your favor.

You can even attack into a 4/5 Goyf if your RWM is exalted enough and build your life up.

And if they don't attack, you just sculpt your board and hand. You are not the beatdown vs Zoo and Sligh. The more you can keep their dudes at bay, the better.

So, yes, I do think that RWM is a better (2-3x)card to side in than a 2-cards combo that dies to the hate they already bring to fight your CB (Grip, Quasali mainly).

And don't say you can protect Painter or Grindstone with CB/Top engine.
Vs the decks mentioned above, an active CB/Top is GG, a combo finish would be overkill in this more-than-favorable situation.

Just to add...

The main attraction of Rhox is that he can't be Gripped. This is why people run him. Too many times, Counterbalance won't win you the game because the RG(w) decks will bring in enormous amounts of hate for it. Rhox shines because it can't be Gripped or Bolted. Adding an artifact based combo will just make it easier for them to stop you.

I have considered War Monk, and there is some success with him with German builds.

I also played in an aggroesque environment and eventually played NLP as some have suggested. The fact of the matter is, instead of not losing you can just win which is why war monk is Like a 65th card or something.

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

war monk is Like a 65th card or something.

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QFT

I do believe that RWM are the 65th-68th slots of your 75 cards deck.

There is no real need to run it MD except if you have a good hint about your metagame.

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.

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that tournament's top8 looks funny.. type2 kithkin are in the top8 out of 95.. wtf?

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Originally Posted by sauce

that tournament's top8 looks funny.. type2 kithkin are in the top8 out of 95.. wtf?

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Maybe Kithkin will allow WWeenies make a comeback? White's probably gotten more out of the last two years than any other color, what with aggro-friendly removal in Path, aggressive combo protection in Ethersworn Cannonist, Elspeth as a rockin' top o'the curve, not to mention the traditional threat of I-have-more-board-presence-than-you-Armageddon. Also, Honor of the Pure's pretty sexy.

I'm at work, and the filters won't let me see deckcheck, but I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility . . .

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Originally Posted by LostButSeeking

Maybe Kithkin will allow WWeenies make a comeback? White's probably gotten more out of the last two years than any other color, what with aggro-friendly removal in Path, aggressive combo protection in Ethersworn Cannonist, Elspeth as a rockin' top o'the curve, not to mention the traditional threat of I-have-more-board-presence-than-you-Armageddon. Also, Honor of the Pure's pretty sexy.

I'm at work, and the filters won't let me see deckcheck, but I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility . . .

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it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.

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Originally Posted by sauce

it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.

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Firespout wrecks Tribal and Zoo, but you should also look at who piloted the Kithkin list. He happens to be in the Magic: the Gathering Hall of Fame. Outplaying an opponent still counts for something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuyoshi_Fujita

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

In an aggro meta i would play the monk.
Some japaneese dude played something like this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996
I think it is totally over the top, but in his random aggrometa it worked.

So as i mentioned the Monk as a legacy beatstick the page befor i was on the understanding that you will see Burn/Goyfsligh/Zoo, if this decks are not relevant in your meta forget the monk.

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War monk also has his advantages against any sort of agro deck...
As i said before for a secondary MD beater, shoring up all of our previous bad MUs is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by sauce

it used 0 legacy tech, it had no aether vial, no fetchlands, it was just a type2 list.
those types of decks don't belong in a top8 of a 95 man legacy tournament.
but then again a deck w/ firespout main won. lol.

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I would not mock the deck that won the tournament b/c right now firespout is pretty amazing in Legacy. The deck was well build and after all, it was the japanese that started the whole counterbalance/top lock.

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Originally Posted by nickrit2000

I would not mock the deck that won the tournament b/c right now firespout is pretty amazing in Legacy. The deck was well build and after all, it was the japanese that started the whole counterbalance/top lock.

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yeah firespout is tech, but i never seen anyone run that shit main besides in type2.

I was asking a few people about what deck to build in the current meta (i had sold my collection, but wish to rebuild it a deck at a time).... I asked the few people I used to respect on this site for a few ideas for decks/lists...

This is the list that I got as the absolute best deck in the format from all of them:


lands//18
1 plains
1 forest
2 island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand

creatures//13
4 qasili pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
2 trinket mage

spells//29
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 spell snare
3 daze
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
1 engineered explosives
2 umezawa's jitte



sideboards//

Varied, but usually included a few silver bullet artifacts, grips/combo/control hate...



I played it and really liked it...

However, I did have one problem with it...

Trinket mage is not good in this list... at least preboard... and here's why:


You already run 4 tops... you rarely have to search for them... and you never EVER want more than two... this leaves just one card that is even useful to search for:

Engineered explosives... which is a solid option, but we usually have the usual obvious choice filled out: 2

We usually either have a goyf or counterbalance on board, therfore it is disadvantageous to blow it for two most of the time... there are no real threat cards at the 3cc range that we couldn't handle otherwise, and the card is really mana intensive in a deck that already has mana intensive cards (top/jitte)...

So... that leaves the card (trinket mage) as a worthless vanilla 2/2 most of the time preboard..

I'll admit, postboard searching for needle and relic had won me games... but they were few and far between... i.e. I would either have lost before I could tutor (ichorid), or they had already had the time to use the card (opposing tops, survival, recurring cards... etc.)...


So I cut the mage and the explosives out of the list leaving me with 3 open slots...

11 creatures was too low for jitte, so I knew I had to search for a creature to replace the mage... A creature that wasn't lackluster in the battlefield, and didn't give up our utility slot.

Mt obvious crit of choice was vendillion clique... not only was it a solid creature, but it is very good at surprising opponents with its' instant speed and its' built in ability and evasion...

This left the last slot to be filled...

I felt the deck didn't really need much since it already had tools against everything: priedmage- art/ench, swords/goyf/jitte- crits, life- monk/jitte...


So, I opted for ponder in that slot... so as to my list:


lands//18
1 plains
1 forest
2 island
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand

creatures//13
4 qasili pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
2 vendillion clique

spells//29
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 spell snare
3 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
2 umezawa's jitte


Very much the same deck... but it does have a shift in aggression... with the added draw to power through your deck, and the obvious boost having a 3/1 flier can have on our offensive abilities in the deck...


Anyways... I would like a testing partner if anyone would be interested, I would like to get the feel for it better... I have tested against zoo and landstill so far, but I need a good gauntlet against a good player... PM if interested.

I'm not sure I understand the bashing on the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996). To me, it seems like a very good list in the current meta (Zoo gaining back in popularity to counter Merfolk dominance).

War Monk may not be the best creature ever, still, it goes hand in hand with Firespout. With your only creatures being Goyfs/RWM/Flyers, Firespout will often be one-sided Wraths of God. And Firespout deals with Mongoose, which can be a real pain if resolved early against Tempo Thresh.

And of course, a resolved Firespout is house vs. Merfolks.

The only thing I don't really like is Dazes, as I'm usually against Dazes in a deck without some LD plan. I would put 3 Spell snares and 1 other thing (maybe a Ponder, or 1 Grip).

Not sure it's better than Probasco's list, but I'm gonna try it for sure.

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Originally Posted by Seb

I'm not sure I understand the bashing on the Japanese list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27996). To me, it seems like a very good list in the current meta (Zoo gaining back in popularity to counter Merfolk dominance).

War Monk may not be the best creature ever, still, it goes hand in hand with Firespout. With your only creatures being Goyfs/RWM/Flyers, Firespout will often be one-sided Wraths of God. And Firespout deals with Mongoose, which can be a real pain if resolved early against Tempo Thresh.

And of course, a resolved Firespout is house vs. Merfolks.

The only thing I don't really like is Dazes, as I'm usually against Dazes in a deck without some LD plan. I would put 3 Spell snares and 1 other thing (maybe a Ponder, or 1 Grip).

Not sure it's better than Probasco's list, but I'm gonna try it for sure.

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I think you were talking to the other guys there... I didn't mention the japanese at all...

I have been kind of disappointed by dazes lately too... they're just as amazing as they used to be early game... but it seems like people run such low curves that once they hit more land they don't even have to worry about playing around it cuz they have enough lands to pay for it naturally...

This isn't the case against zoo and black agro-control, but against the mirror, they will hit those lands and wil not have to worry about daze...


Daze is also very bad against control IMO...

I love it against combo though... I will not cut it unless I can find a great replacement.

@thefreakaccident
nice list, though i would up the land count. 18 land is not enough if you plan on running counter balance. Any deck with land denial via wasteland, stifle or both will cause you to stumble then run you over. Go for 20 land, or 19 land and at least 2 ponder.

@Seb
i agree with you man, that deck is pretty innovative with allowing firespout to be one sided. Though i was wondering wouldn't jitte just be better? (ie hits tarmogyf, stalker etc)

Question,
What are your game plans against landstill decks? I pack 2 back to basics and 2 gaddock teeg in sb to combat them or are you not worried about that deck?

I'm still addicted irrationally to the Probasco list for its style and power.

The only thing that I found lacking was a reliable way to have green mana (especially in the face of Landstill, Staxx and Goblins). Sometimes I was so desperate that I went Trinket Mage -> Pithing Needle -> Wasteland, which is of course not an overwhelmingly effective play, but seemed necessary.

I came up with the solution of replacing one Island with a single Basic Forest. In order to find it, I replaced 2 fetchlands with Wooded Foothills, which still manage to get blue mana on the table in the form of Volcanics and Tropicals.

So all in all, the modified manabase looks like this:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
5 [IA] Island (2)
1 [PT] Forest (4)

In the testing so far it worked quite well. My question is: Do you think that 2 Foothills is the correct number? 3 seems too many, because you often want the Basic Islands first. But that's just my impression.

I'd say if you got problems with finding the green mana just cut an academy ruins or the underground sea (seriously, who needs duress?) and add the fourth tropical island for it to give you better outs against wasteland. Furthermore, there are not a whole lot of green spells in the list, so I made the experience that simply dropping the Tropical Island and playing a goyf, Krosan Grip with it and having it wasted immediately is also not the badest thing.

Edit: I just have lost a 4 word pages long post about this deck. So short question: How do you use Sower of Temptation? It sucks for me either or always gets destroyed/ Is win more under Cb lock.