[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by slobad23

Well no not really - because you spent zero mana on the unmask allowing you to cast the pimp that same turn. leaving you with the mana open next turn to be able to either cast breakthrough (which you could have done with thoughtseize due to having 2 land i guess) but also allows the option of using the cephalid colliseum on turn 2.

You could say "what is the opponent has a disrupting shoal and a 4 casting cost card to counter unmask... wouldn't thoughtseize be better there?" but that leads us down a crazy path... you could argue for any card going into any deck setting up the perfect scenario for the card...

Unmask (currently playing 2 in my list) is so good purely because it's free. You can complain all you like about having to discard a card to it but hey... it's still too good in this deck to pass up.

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I understand the slippery slope of setting up situations which are favourable to argument. That said I actually want to people to respond with hands containing Unmask shenanigans; it might open my eyes to lines of play I wouldn't have thought of.

I suppose Unmask is at its best when you have Coliseum, Breakthrough, no black mana, and don't need to pitch your only dredger. Then you can check for countermagic and fill your graveyard safely.

Very nice primer.

This makes me want to give Ichorid a go next time I sit down to play legacy at casual play or FNM.

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug

Play the LED first, so as not to tip off the op. on what you're playing. Play Coliseum, and crack LED for UUU. Use UU and 3 life to retrace DA, dredging back your three critters from the opening hand. Lets say you dredge a coupla omeabas that come into play, and have a coupla Bridges in the yard from the dredge, as well as more dredgers in the yard. the last U and U + 1 life from Coliseum to dredge 3 times from another DA in the yard. Now 2/3 of the library is in the yard, with three bridges, all four of your narco's are out, and you have a FKZ and 2 DR's in the yard. You sac three narco's for a DR and one for a cabal for good measure, netting 16 zombies, DR the FKZ and march on over?

Basically, what I am trying to ascertain is that in order to turn1/2 someone, you'll need to flip all of your Narco's and have 3/4 Bridges in the yard as well as a DR/FKZ in order to kill, right? And if you can't do that on turn 1, then you flip cards on turn two, or cast a Pimp if you don't have enough Narcos out, right? I'm still new to the deck, but this primer has helped out tons. A real Ichorid For Dummies it is

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Originally Posted by jandax

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug

Play the LED first, so as not to tip off the op. on what you're playing. Play Coliseum, and crack LED for UUU. Use UU and 3 life to retrace DA, dredging back your three critters from the opening hand. Lets say you dredge a coupla omeabas that come into play, and have a coupla Bridges in the yard from the dredge, as well as more dredgers in the yard. the last U and U + 1 life from Coliseum to dredge 3 times from another DA in the yard. Now 2/3 of the library is in the yard, with three bridges, all four of your narco's are out, and you have a FKZ and 2 DR's in the yard. You sac three narco's for a DR and one for a cabal for good measure, netting 16 zombies, DR the FKZ and march on over?

Basically, what I am trying to ascertain is that in order to turn1/2 someone, you'll need to flip all of your Narco's and have 3/4 Bridges in the yard as well as a DR/FKZ in order to kill, right? And if you can't do that on turn 1, then you flip cards on turn two, or cast a Pimp if you don't have enough Narcos out, right? I'm still new to the deck, but this primer has helped out tons. A real Ichorid For Dummies it is

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Yeah, but instead of playing the second DA you can just activate the Coliseum. Turn 1 kills are overrated, even if you flip just 1 Moeba and 2 Bridges, you can just Therapy your opponent for any relevant cards and on the next turn overwhelm him with Ichorids + zombie tokens.

The deck offers a lot of ways to go off, most are preety obvious, but let point out one that isn't. Say you kept 7 cards on the draw with Coliseum, LED, Troll and whatever 4 other cards. You can just play the Coliseum, play the LED, crack the LED, now you have 7 cards in the graveyard and can activate the Coliseum hoping to flip a DA FTW.

The most common turn 1 kill would be Land+Breakthrough+LED+Dredger.
Put down Land and LED, cast Breakthrough and crack LED in response, dredge 4 times, then find DA, use the LED-Mana to flashback DA, all the while putting Narcomoebas into play and Bridges into the Grave. Then Dread Return Zealot. Sometimes you only find two Moebas. In that case simply flashback a Cabal Therapy for multiple tokens.

Thanks to both of you

I think I was missing the LED-in-response to a Breakthrough. That was my bump in the road

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Originally Posted by jandax

Great primer, Parcher. I've recommended it to a few friends. You folks here put up intelligent arguments

If someone could, please take me through a nuts hand. Turn 1 or 2 kills

Opening hand:

LED, DA, GGT, Coliseum, Stinky, Ichorid, Thug

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I'm not that much of an LED player but is this really a keeper?
I see the kill, but if your LED eats a Force/Daze you basically lost since you have only blue mana and no other discard outled. Furthermore you dont even have an Unmask or some other way to protect the LED. If you are on the draw a single Duress can kill you.

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Originally Posted by paK0

I'm not that much of an LED player but is this really a keeper?
I see the kill, but if your LED eats a Force/Daze you basically lost since you have only blue mana and no other discard outled. Furthermore you dont even have an Unmask or some other way to protect the LED. If you are on the draw a single Duress can kill you.

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I would definitly keep this hand on the draw.
Depending on what I draw and if I know I'm playing agaisnt blue, I would probally DDD Golgari gravetroll. Then the next turn you can start dredging and if you hit another dredger you could go for the coliseum then led.

If I'm playing this hand agaisnt blue on the play, I'm not sure if I would keep it. But probally.

Double-posting to post the sideboard that I'm working on :
3x Tireless Tribe
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Ancestor's chosen
3x Firestorm

The only problem that I've seen with this list is that it doesn't prevent a second top decked Crypt.
In my maindeck I run : 12 land, 12 dredgers, 2 careful study, 3 dread return.

I've lost two round in a ~25men + top8. Both of em was my partner getting two relic / crypt. And both of em top deck'd em then turn before I would have gone off.

I've played agaisnt :
Peace deck (Went off turn 3, and I therapy'd his Peacekeeper, game 2 he had magus of the moat, but couldn't find anything else and I beat him down with 3 narcomoeba.
Mono blue fearies / ninja deck (lost game one because of a slow hand + he had force and Jitte. Lost game 2 because because he had two crypt, he landed standstill.. he then break it so I dredge like 17 cards, and planned going off the next turn, but he top decked his crypt)
Ultimate walkers ( Won game 1, he couldn't do anything because I had a fast hand, game 2 he stomped me with relic and Crypt, and I won game 3 even though I had a slow hand because he was not able to find an answer other then EE)
Dragon Stompy (ID)

Top 8
ANT( I was on the play, won on my second turn, game 2 we both kept a risky hand, I therapy'd his ad nauseum but I manage to find a dredger and I emptied his whole hand on turn three with sadistic hypnotist)
Top 4
UGW Zoo (I kept a 6 hand no dredger, but I had 2 breakthrough / Pimp / 2 bridge and a land so I decided to take a risk and keep it. I did Coliseum, 2 breakthrough to only find one dredger, and I still manage to win. Game 2, I lost to a turn 1 relic, no answer. Game 3, turn 2 relic, which I ancient grudge, then he played jitte on his next turn, which I flashback'd grudge in. Then I dredge in some bridge but he decided to bolt my Pimp instead of his kird ape, I reput ichorid, which got Path'd then he decided to lightning helix some of my token instead of his kird ape again.. and I had a big graveyard with dredges and he was at low life and he managed to top deck his crypt to remove my hard ftw)


I'm thinking of removing 1x firestorm or 1x tireless tribe to put a 4th ichorid in side vs deck with path / STP. Or maybe I should try Greater gargaddon..

@Guitar: I son't know your maindeck composition but running 4x ochorid is very healthy. On the other hand, you can solve the problem of relic/crypt with Greater Gargadon. Have you tested it?? And i don't clearly understand the 2x Hypnotist in your SB. I think that it's a 1x maindeck creature. Do you run unmask??

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

@Guitar: I son't know your maindeck composition but running 4x ochorid is very healthy. On the other hand, you can solve the problem of relic/crypt with Greater Gargadon. Have you tested it?? And i don't clearly understand the 2x Hypnotist in your SB. I think that it's a 1x maindeck creature. Do you run unmask??

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I've found that 4 ichorid maindeck is a bit too much, especially that you don't really want him in your opening hand.
I've tested Gargaddon one time, but wasn't quite happy with it, much of the time it was just here, staring at the relic, while I had no discard outlet.. I just didn't do anything. I've tried replacing him with tireless tribe / Grudge. It helps me to dodge relic a bit easier while I get some dredge in my yard and when I see ancient grudge the relic is gone.
I put Hypnotist in my SB because there's too many matchup where I would prefer the Sage and zealot, especially game 1 where I need to be fast. Although, it's REALLY nice when you are facing Combo deck or Landstill / planeswalker deck where that hypnotist almost garanty you the game. So that's why I have him in my sideboard. I run two to increase the chance of hitting it early.
I've tried several times the unmask build, but I prefer most of the time a careful study. Even though, it would help me getting rid of relic / crypt game 3, I've founc study to do the job, especially game 1. It often attract Force of will and give you a discard outlet + a chance to dig 2 card to draw more cards next turn. PLus, most of the time, I didn't want to pitch anything to unmask because my hand consisted of Pimp as my only discard, or a Thug / stinkweed as my only dredgers, so I prefered. So it did more often stay in my hand then being good.

That's my take :p

Could any of you who've played this for a long time make an argument for not playing the more stable version lacking LED? I know I could just go to that thread to find out the inner workings of the Non-LED Ichorid build, but what I really would like to ascertain is why folks are divided. Might provide some useful insight

From the opening post (Parcher made an excellent primer, I suggest you read it):

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Originally Posted by Parcher

4 Lion's Eye Diamond: The terminator line between current Legacy Ichorid decks. Some feel that in a format with decks running Relic of Progenitus main that discarding your entire hand is too risky. They may be correct. But there is no single card that as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently facilitates the entire goal of the Ichorid deck as this one. Basically, it speeds the decks up from a half to a full turn if dropped early. It serves as both free discard, and free mana; making relatively slow cards like Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis active on Turn One. It can be used to pay for additional costs such as Daze, and to pay through inhibitors like Trinisphere, or Ghostly Prison. LED is also excellent counter-magic bait, and in conjunction with an opening Gemstone Mine, can cause a read like a Storm Combo deck. It's uses with Witness are detailed earlier, and cannot be discounted. While some may argue that the risks outweigh the gains with LED, no version without it has put up one-twentieth the results that the versions running four have.

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Especially the last sentence helps.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Could any of you who've played this for a long time make an argument for not playing the more stable version lacking LED? I know I could just go to that thread to find out the inner workings of the Non-LED Ichorid build, but what I really would like to ascertain is why folks are divided. Might provide some useful insight

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Speed kills.

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Originally Posted by Guitar

Even though, it would help me getting rid of relic / crypt game 3, I've founc study to do the job, especially game 1.

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So you prefer to play a card that makes your best turn better, over a card that makes your hard turn better? You can easily win G1 without a Study, otherwise you probable are affraid of mulliganing to much, so you keep too bad hands sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Guitar

I've found that 4 ichorid maindeck is a bit too much, especially that you don't really want him in your opening hand.

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When playing 4 Ichorids and Unmask, you don't have to be affraid of pitching an Ichorid to it, leaving you with only 2 Ichorids left. Ichorid is too good for being a 3-off. When someone plays Extirpate on your Bridges or removes them with a sac-creature, you want as many Ichorids as possible. These are the kind of situations were you need those Ichorids, in the harde games, where Moebas + Bridges + Dread Return + FKZ wont win you the game on turn 2.

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

So you prefer to play a card that makes your best turn better, over a card that makes your hard turn better? You can easily win G1 without a Study, otherwise you probable are affraid of mulliganing to much, so you keep too bad hands sometimes.



When playing 4 Ichorids and Unmask, you don't have to be affraid of pitching an Ichorid to it, leaving you with only 2 Ichorids left. Ichorid is too good for being a 3-off. When someone plays Extirpate on your Bridges or removes them with a sac-creature, you want as many Ichorids as possible. These are the kind of situations were you need those Ichorids, in the harde games, where Moebas + Bridges + Dread Return + FKZ wont win you the game on turn 2.

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There's a lot of situation that study turns out to be better then unmask, study becomes better game 2 and 3 where it gives you an additional discard outlet that will attract daze and force... I've found that unmask stayed in my hand with no other black card that I wanted to remove like 80% of the time.

However, I'll playtest unmask, and I am still unsure of running gargeddon, I've always wanted grudge over gargeddon. Destroying a jitte can steal a game, and forcing people to crack their hate soon is good too. Not to mention that grudge does something in your graveyard. I'll however switch Sage for Witness. I might try gargeddon thursday to see what it does in my testing, I don't like the fact that he does nothing directly vs a crypt or relic.

By the way, I've never seen extirpate, at least not in my meta. There's one deck I know running it and it because it a Cwish toolbos.

While there are good reasons to run Grudge over Gargadon, Jitte is not one. It should be virtually impossible for your opponent to get an active Jitte if you have Gargadon suspended.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

While there are good reasons to run Grudge over Gargadon, Jitte is not one. It should be virtually impossible for your opponent to get an active Jitte if you have Gargadon suspended.

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True, I just saw this. However, if you don't have Gargadon in your opening, it's an usuless card and a card that you won't be able to use against jitte.. On the contrary, Grudge will help. Plus, when you don't have gargadon in your opening, it helps you find a direct answer to the crypt by dredging into a grudge.
By the way, have any of you considered running gargadon + grudge (3?) in side and siding in for game 2 something like -3 unmask, -1 ichorid, , -2 Deep analysis, -2 Lion's eye diamond if you are facing a deck like landstill on the draw.

I haven't tried it, but I think that they overlap too much. They both are there against Crypt/Relic/Jitte/EE etc. And they both are relatively slow against Aggro decks. One or the other would have to replace Firestorm, and I'm not comfortable with that switch against Aggro.

Does a 2009 Gencon first place not qualify Ichorid for "Decks to Beat" category? I've sure lost to this deck a few times with a variety of Archetypes. Just wondering when this deck will move on up. By definition, it must be "played in a variety of metagames, and have proven [itself] in a competitive tournament environment. A deck is not required to be Tier 1 to be included in this forum."

Beatable, of course. Proven to work? Obviously. Just a thought ;)