[Deck] Aggro Loam

Knight of the reliquary is good no doubt about it but he is NOT better than crusher. Crusher is so synergystic with the rest of the deck it isn't even funny not to mention when he see's humility he laughs and rumbles on anyway. With loam active he is a lot better than knight.

I don't like 4c builds because of the shaky manabase I play strictly RGB. Splashing blue for gifts ungiven seems interesting but more interesting to me is intuition because it's 3 mana v. 4 mana. Gifts is CA true but intuition can be CA in the right situation depending. Vindicate in 4 color builds seems like the same as maelstrom pulse; sure you can randomly pull that game out where you manascrew them but usually we can do that with wastelock anyways not to mention pulse is usually used on cards that affect the game state a lot more than lands. Only reason to splash white to me is StP and knight. But I'm content with RGB at the moment.

Aggro Zombies nothing personal but do you really dislike this deck or something? It seems like every post you rip on the deck and rant about how bad it is. We know it's a metadeck. We know it's slow. I still enjoy playing the deck and having those busted hands with turn 2 seismic and turn 1 loam. Or even turn 1 crusher I made that play in a tournament the other day and the guy just couldn't answer it lol :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by coraz86

Is your fourth color white for additional control like Vindicate and StP or blue for library manipulation? I've had fun working with Gifts Ungiven packages (and Academy Ruins can be hilarious in the deck), but never had the balls to take it to any semblance of a tournament. Also, Knight of the Reliquary is insane in this deck, to my mind better than Crusher.

---

White splash is for KotR. It has been awhile since a run crusher. I prefer Knight better because it can tutor any land you need given a certain situation, like wasteland maze of ith, karakas, tabernacle. It can also up your mana production in a turn if you want to have explosive starts. It can also fix your mana color.

I replaced crusher with terravores

But I'm open in playing RGb builds just have not found the list I like.

So you replaced the GY hate resistant card with a card that reads "I die to relic of progenitus activation." I see no reason to run terravore over countryside crusher at all especially when crusher helps you find business spells by cycling through almost every land in your deck except mox diamond. Sure it reveals the card you draw but when does that matter if you dredge loam or you play that card immediately when you're in topdeck mode so to speak.

Knight toolbox is cute but if you don't have knight what then or god forbid the opponent pithing needles the knight, a card seeing more play now that survi vine is the most popular deck. Temporary wastelock is good but maze of ith, tabernacle, karakas, all are very meh cards if you don't need them. The most useful is maze of ith and even then you're running it over a spell like maelstrom pulse because it taps for 0 mana.

Alright, new week, new tournament. I think we were 14 people this time and I finished 4th after losing the final to incredibly bad beats, but that happens to everybody from time to time.

I'm playing McGregors list with -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Terravore, +3 Firespout

1 - Erik, Landstill
I win G1 quite easy with chalice and quick beats. My threats are later killed when he EEs my chalice but I have seismic.
In the next game he has everything he needs and locks me out of the game with Humilty and planeswalkers. I sccop early and hope to win the last game but alas, it's a draw. Observation: EE@4 would wreck this deck but I couldn't find a mox, is a singleton Volcanic Island an option for this matter?
0-0-1

2 - Per, GWB Survival
Bad beats for Per, I get the nuts both games while he's manascrewed. I also have grip for his Survival.
1-0-1

3 - Johan, Death and Taxes
This was a really hard game last week, the maindecked firespouts are here mostly for this and the goblin match. This week it's easier, I lose game 1 due to his incredibly annoying Mother of Runes prevents me from killing his team with Firespout which otherwise would have been great. He gets active SOFI and it's sccop. -4 Chalice, +4 Krosan. G2 I have early confidant that gives me enough card advantage to get me in the game. He tutors for Aura of Silence but I have the grip so my Seismic gets me there. G3 I one-for-one all his threats and get double confidant which of course gives me enough gas into seismic + loam.
2-0-1

4 - Viktor, Dredge.
Finals!
G1 he mulls to five and I have a fast hand with both mox, bob and loam. I get seismic and throw lands at him before he is able to get his Zombies online. G2 I'm in an excellent position to win, I mull to the following six: Leyline, Mountain, Badlands, Crusher, Loam, Leyline. Put leyline into play, and fail to draw a green mana source for 9 turns while he kills me with hardcasted imps. WFT!!!? Oh yeah, I drew three consecutive moxen. Argh.
Last game I keep a sixer without leyline but with bob, early beats, EE and firespout. We trade back and forth, I get seismic and swing with a 10/10 crushers, bringing him down to 10. He has nothing, but will get two ichorids next turn. His out is Iona but needs to dredge down a dread return to get it. Of course he does, thus preventing me from winning the next turn. Viktor wins the tournament. Bad beats G2, but that's how magic is sometimes.
2-1-1

Analysis: the deck is really strong in the meta right now since combo and zoo are on the decline. Survival is hard but winnable, blue decks and semi-slow aggro (DaT, rock etc) are quite favourable matchups. I don't think I'll change my deck til' next time.

In a 4C loam is it ok to add elspeth?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blue_mage

In a 4C loam is it ok to add elspeth?

---

Why? The deck's curve is already terrible, so you want to make it worse by adding a four-drop that does...exactly what for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Why? The deck's curve is already terrible, so you want to make it worse by adding a four-drop that does...exactly what for you?

---

I was just thinking of squeezing an alternative win condition that is not graveyard dependent.

1.) it makes all creatures in loam decks fly. help's win faster
2.) it makes your confidant a threat
3.) helps win games against moat decks
4.) gives a constant threat

Im trying to build a R/G budget version for a friend of mine.

I was if anyone was wondering a R/G version (doesnt have to be budget) of this deck. A little guide would really help.

I was also thinking of including Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows combo on the budget version.

I think that would be a possible addition in a pure RG version.

I play Grove&Fire duo in non-budget 3-4 color Loam version and they are awesome.

I remember trying to build R/G version, but it really lacked some disruption and wasn't faster than 3-4 color Loam.

But was the manabase stable at least?

Also, on the non-budget version (I'm actually interested in building this deck too now), would Chalice of the Void shine?

I have also noticed that Devastating Dreams aren't used anymore. Why is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

But was the manabase stable at least?

Also, on the non-budget version (I'm actually interested in building this deck too now), would Chalice of the Void shine?

I have also noticed that Devastating Dreams aren't used anymore. Why is that?

---

Devastating is only devastating against non blue decks. I run it in my sideboard right now.

Punishing fires seems interesting, but Grim Lavamancer is strictly better, IMO. Guy is so damn good.

Chalice of the void is our only out against combo and against competent pilots it usually doesn't matter much unless you get a turn 1 chalice at 0 and at 1 turn 2 crusher to apply quick beats and then turn 4 cast loam. That's a god hand though.

In a budget RG version would you be running mox diamond? Whether you do or not equates to whether you run chalice of the void or not. If you don't run chalice, I imagine grim lavamancer is decent as a 1 drop.

Devastating dreams requires a full hand to be good. Most creatures dodge it if you discard 3 cards it's an okay firespout that pumps crusher and vore. And against blue, they FoW it or spell snare it and you cry.

EDIT: I meant to say earlier that chalice is our only out against combo. Against aggro it is often very bad especially if they go turn 2 qasali pridemage which has made CotV very weak since its printing.

Dreams is pretty bad. There are better land destruction options and better sweeper options, and having both in one card doesn't make up for the Mind Twist. Plus, it's actually pretty slow unless you want to take yourself out of the game by blowing up all your own lands.

Zendikar fetches should be cheaper than Onslaught ones and should still enable you to build a three-color version. Depending on how much money you want to sink into the manabase, shocklands are reasonable substitutes for duals, but filter lands and M10 duals are also fine if you run more basics and Zen fetches. Ghost Quarter is a reasonable Wasteland substitute.

The following seems fine for just two colors:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Terravore

4 Life from the Loam
3 Firespout
4 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hull Breach
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Stomping Grounds
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Mountain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antonius

Punishing fires seems interesting, but Grim Lavamancer is strictly better, IMO. Guy is so damn good.

---

Lavamancer is a great guy, but it is a bit non-sense to call the card strictly better than punishing fire. Punishing fire does not eat your graveyard (and thus making your goyfs smaller), can do 4 damage and is much more resistant to opponent's disruption.

In my opinion, Grove&Fire duo is seriously underrated in Loam decks. I was sceptical about them too, but once I tested them in several tournaments, I changed my opinion about them completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Careve

Lavamancer is a great guy, but it is a bit non-sense to call the card strictly better than punishing fire. Punishing fire does not eat your graveyard (and thus making your goyfs smaller), can do 4 damage and is much more resistant to opponent's disruption.

In my opinion, Grove&Fire duo is seriously underrated in Loam decks. I was sceptical about them too, but once I tested them in several tournaments, I changed my opinion about them completely.

---

you do realize that 80-90% of Tarmogoyf's size in this deck comes from your opponent's yard, right? I mean, this deck is almost all permanents, usually has no instants, and dredges a lot of land. I've had many, many games where Tarmogoyf has been stuck at 1/2 or 2/3 for five-six turns. Punishing fires is just so slow. In a deck that's already starved for speed, you want to put in another painfully slow combo? Punishing Fires doesn't even punish zoo really, since it costs you 5 mana to kill a Nacatl. Sure, Lavamancer's not too hot against zoo either, but at least it doesn't cost three mana to use once.

Now, where do these cards make a difference? Tribal matchups, of course. Merfolk, for example, just scoops it up to turn 1 lavamancer. Do they do the same to Punishing fires combo? No, you're going to tap out to try and hit LoA, then they're going to daze it. They'll waste you off of grove of the burnwillows then spell pierce it the next time you try and cast it, by then they'll have two LOA's or a LOA + Reejerey and you'll need 5 mana to kill any of their guys. They'll tempo the hell out of you, then beat you same way they beat conventional aggro loam lists -- by being 1-2 turns FASTER than you. And goblins will generally just kill you before you get multiple uses out of Punishing fires. Also, punishing fires doesn't stop turn 1 lackey, go.

On the flipside, what does Lavamancer get you? Merfolk generally can't beat turn 1 lavamancer. Its hard for them to beat turn 2 Lavamancer, too. Even on turn 3, he can torch their whole team. If you add in some other burn (lightning bolt) then they're really just not getting anywhere with you. He seriously pumps your win in that matchup by like 15-25%. He's just nuts. He's not as strong vs goblins, since they have like six ways to get rid of him, but he's still a huge thorn in their side, forces them to commit more forces to the board and if you have any other kind of back-up removal, then he can get it done himself.

Seriously, Punishing Fires is slow. If you want direct burn, just play good old Lightning Bolt. Maybe aggro loam players underestimate it or discount it because it's not an engine, and the rest of the deck is, but seriously, bolt is amazing. There are games against goblins, merfolk, etc where you just win because you have pocket, instant speed removal for R. You nip coralhelm in the bud, get those LoA's or reduce their goblin count so incinerator just misses Tarmogoyf. I've also straight up won games with bolt as reach. It's a sick card.

The real disadvantage to Lavamancer is that he bars you from playing Terravore or KotR, but IMO, going 3-color is much better than 4 and Crusher should be enough to get you there. Also, Lavamancer is pure synergy with Crusher, Loam, Seismic Assault...the whole deck is designed to put cards in your yard, and you know that a lot of those cards are going to be chaff that you're not going to get back. Turn extra loams, fetches, cyclers, etc into shocks.

@Dark Ritual: What? Are you insinuating that our aggro matchup is...bad? What? Since when? The premier aggro decks in the format are Vial decks. I would say that even with a conventional build that matchup is 50-50 (maybe 55-45 aggro loam's favor, preboard). And chalice doesn't help you there--if anything, Chalice is the least relevant card in your 75. You have to take it out for natures claim, needle or bolt.
The other aggro deck...what, Zoo? Really? I mean, yeah, Chalice is good and all, if you get it early, but the longer the game goes, the more value it loses because the more Lightnings slipped through and already hit your face. Otherwise, the best cards you have are the cards that dominate their board. Have you forgotten that all our dudes, except confidant, are bigger than theirs? Just play goyf and crusher then fetch. Terravore is a boss. Seismic assault and Loam wipes their board. They play such a concentration of 1 and 2 drops that EE can wipe their board. Sure, sometimes their opening hand is good and they continue to rip the nuts down the stretch, but the balance is going to be in our favor.

On Devastating--
Yeah, it has weaknesses against blue, but it rapes all other decks. If anything, it was amazing in the meta game we just came out of, and it was the real reason why I picked up aggro loam (and why a lot of other people did, too, IMO). Devastating Dreams raped vengevine decks. It crushes both their lands and their mana dorks. Any time from turns 2-4, where they're ramping, they just can't recover from that kind of tempo loss.

Now, yeah, the meta is changing but Devastating dreams is still devastating reality against any deck that can't counter it and against any board state that doesn't have a KotR or a Terravore on their side. We were just talking about the Zoo matchup--devastating dreams rapes zoo. As i said earlier, KotR is their only out.

This was my most recent list, btw:

Main Deck
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
3 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
qty: 60

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Krosan Grip
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
qty: 15

I played this at the last big tournament pre-survival bannings. With the meta changing, I'm probably going to take MD claim out for either 2 Needle or 2 Maelstrom Pulse. Then I drop the 3 needles in my board for 2 Pyroblast and another Grip. 6 pieces of CBtop hate + duress/inquisition in the 75 should be enough to keep the blue decks off their game. Extirpate is still really good and Nihil spellbomb has just been sick.

Loam + Seismic Assault > Grove + Punishing Fire

Outside of having legs, how valuable is Bob over Sylvan Library? Is the black splash worth? Maybe I still don't quite understand the deck. I guess the OP needs to be updated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Outside of having legs, how valuable is Bob over Sylvan Library? Is the black splash worth? Maybe I still don't quite understand the deck. I guess the OP needs to be updated.

---

I haven't played this deck in ages and wouldn't recommend it to anyone as it doesn't really beat anything right now. But I can update it if you give me a list of things you want to see.

Black gives you access to more versatile removal (Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate), Volrath's Stronghold, and Dark Confidant. Sylvan Library works better if you are going all-in on a dredge plan, but Bob is better at being a raw card drawing engine. Obviously, if you're not in black, you want a redundant source of card draw since Loam is slow and vulnerable, and Sylvan Library is in one of the colors you are definitely playing.

The deck is basically a classic midrange deck. It doesn't do any one thing particularly well but is flexible enough to get the job done most of the time. Black increases your flexibility by giving you real targeted removal and better recursion, but if you're on a tight budget it's probably fine to skip it.

Splashing Black also gives you the opportunity to play more diverse GY Hate (Crypt/Spellbomb split) and opens up the possibility of playing Leyine.

And it gives you a third color for EE, not to mention you can play Maelstrom Pulse.