Snow Dual Lands?
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Snow Dual Lands?
It's probably less that and more that Extended tends to stagnate very rapidly once the season starts. There's also the fact that there are two obviously best strategies; Thopter Foundry and Dark Depths (or some combination) on the one hand and some iteration of Zoo on the other. It's very hard to break the stranglehold of these two decks with a more limited card pool, but it doesn't help that interesting strategies are being taken out of the format by rotations. If anything, rotations are the closest thing we'll get to change in the format; Wizards has pushed creatures so hard that Zoo is unlikely to be bad anytime soon, and the control decks are only really viable because of their combo elements, most of which won't rotate for a while yet. At least Legacy has the appearance of being wide open because sometimes the Tier II decks win, but that doesn't happen nearly as often in Extended (as far as I can tell).Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Norris
This new format may also stagnate rather quickly, but that's just what happens when the best strategies never leave the format. Once they're discovered, they get played.
Your calculation is slightly off. The correct total amount should be 397.93 which still is a good $100 cheaper than UW Control but more than doubles Jund's price.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
My thoughts are that I need to sell everything pre-masques block and say goodbye to Legacy and any hopes of playing Vintage.
Ok, I'm ready to offload you from that unbearable burdenQuote:
Originally Posted by Octopusman
Sell me your now worthless duals and moxen half-price.
What would I do to save your day mate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Guy
Like Nihil says here, time is a resource. So you go to Ebay, you put in a bid, you wait 7 days for the auction to finish, find out that you got sniped at the last minute, rinse and repeat. Eventually, you get your cards for 75% of the price you'd pay at SCG, but you wasted 4 or 5 hours of time searching auctions for low prices, bidding, watching the cards, etc. I don't know about the rest of you, but I make around 16 bucks an hour at both of my jobs, so I'm calling 4 hours of my time a $64 investement. Because otherwise, I could've just spent those wasted hours working and kept the extra. Because those low prices that people are quoting as the best prices you can get on EBay certainly aren't buy it now prices. You're talking weeks or months to get anything at those prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
So, the latest episode of the Magic Show practically confirms that Extended+ or "Overextended" is being seriously considered by Wizards and that it will most likely begin at Mercadian Masques.
If they want to create a new eternal format they should listen more closely to what players want. They do want Legacy but without the ridiculous prices. A Neo-Legacy format with all the reserve list cards banned would have a larger card pool then the proposed "Overextended", hence more potential for variability in decks, and it would keep the prices of decks within reasonable bounds since Wizards can essentially reprint any card they deem to be in demand.
The Magic Show is hardly the gospel truth. He is probably working off the same information we have.
If they listened to players we probably wouldn't even be talking about a new format, we would be celebrating the fall of the Reserved List.
Yes , I spent an hour every day looking for new porn and masturbating to it , should I be getting paid for that ? sure time is a resource , but that doesnt mean shit if you are not getting paid for it. if you are not going to spend your time wisely and try to look for better or cheaper deals , then you deserve to pay more for being lazy. but when you do pay more for that item , it makes the other dealers raise their price on that item to match what you just overpaid for it. spending 4 hours doing nothing at home gets you paid $0 and spending 4 hours on ebay to save $20 on cards also gets you paid $0 , however by spending 4 hours to save $20 , thats close enough to making $5 an hour. and yes , ebay has lots of cheap buy it now prices , you just have to have vigilance and cant be tapped out when you see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
"I can sell out Madison Square Garden masturbating." - Mike TysonQuote:
Originally Posted by Some Guy
Good Afternoon,
I am getting pretty tired of this. This is a bad idea. The people that want this format don't really want it anyway. What happens when misdirection hits 70 dollars and ports are 65. Please try to understand this simple point, great magic cards in popular formats are expensive. Here is the best piece of advice I can give and I have given it before. Buy in to the format that you love. Feel accomplishment when you put together a sick legacy deck, knowing that you are slinging some of the best cards of magics long history. Give up restaurants for a while, lose weight, learn to really cook good food (This will help you throughout your life), and acquire a killer deck. I promise that you will be happier. Perhaps you will realize that it is a slap in the face to everyone that has gone through the journey to ask for the rules to be bent for you.
I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago. Last month I purchased the remaining duals to finish my 40 for 450 dollars. I invest in what I enjoy. Magic is a labor of love. If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, draft, sealed, extended, EDH, pauper, block, packwars, cube, mental, 250, type 4, creature feature, singleton standard, cyos, Mortal Combat (Ames, Iowa format), and let the people who really care about the format enjoy it for what it is alone. Don't mess with our format.
This is a response to the real issue here.
-Peace
We just want the chance to start our own journey, with cards that can be bought for under 10 bucks now, when we've started playing - if all we're asking for is the new format.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
It's those who say a new format isn't enough, and insist on having the original duals reprinted that want the rules to be bent for them, slapping the faces of the people who were there before. Even if I wouldn't phrase it that way, because they don't realize what they're asking for.
I'll take how to misrepresent a quote for a thousand Alex.
The point is that I will buy. I don't care if the current market value is 10 or 70, I intend on using the underground sea to good effect. It is worth it. The actual cost does not matter to me as long as I am not overpaying at the time. It is offensive for people to just say "that price is too high, fix this problem", we are dealing with collectibles. They are worth their price because people will pay it. Pay for it or deal with the fact you won't do it. We aren't talking about millions of dollars here, just about everyone with a job can save for these cards. People just want new toys and nights out more. For what it is worth, I only purchased 7 duals at ten dollars, and they are by far the poorest condition duals of my set. I have paid much more for all of the rest of them.
Look, stock prices are volatile, so are magic cards. I can accept the risk of holding on to my collection specifically because it is the play that is important. Why don't you spend your time accumulating the cool cards instead of begging for a free treat. Creating a new format for you is akin to reprints. Your distaste for the current prices causes a major shift in how the game is currently. If you had the duals, would you sell them or keep them? Thought so
The game is a business, made with goal of earning as much profit as possible, regardless of what it means to you on a personal level. Sentimentality is nice, but it isn't exactly an important factor in business decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your previous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
Yes, creating a new format is akin to reprints. This is why I do make it clear, when the issue comes up, that I definitely don't want Wizards to withdraw support from Legacy. If the price of the duals does cause interest in Legacy to slowly fade, it should be clear that this is not happening because of anything Wizards is doing, except for avoiding the reprints in question.
I don't see it as unfair or dishonest for people who have come to Magic later in the day to desire to have a gentle step upwards from Extended available to them, just as it was, at one time in the past, easier to step upwards from Extended to Legacy than it is now. This just conforms the major available formats more closely to the current reality, in which Magic has been around for many years, and so a huge gap exists between Extended and Legacy.
I understand your economic concern, but the evidence is not quite on your side. Even in the most expensive years of Standard and Extended, with some awesome "staples" costing way more than the average card, your highest price was never really much more than $50. Baneslayer Angel and Jace the Mind Sculptor carry that dubious honor in the present standard. Chrome Mox, Wrath of God, Cunning/Living Wish, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Depths; these cards are now, or have been, format defining, but none of them ever hit the price tags of their Legacy counterpart staples. This is one strike against the idea that "popular formats have expensive cards"; it's just insufficient to explain Legacy's high prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramanujan
As to the idea of an investment, I just do not get why people keep saying this. It is obviously and without a doubt better to invest in a format like Legacy than continue to spend money in Standard, at least from an economic, investment-based standpoint. But how many rational, economic agents do you guys really know? There are tons of bad investors and frivolous spenders in the world, and for every intelligent economic entity there are dozens of stupid ones. Magic is no exception to this. It is not enough to keep saying "Legacy is a better investment so everyone should just invest in it." Clearly this logic has not worked in past years, otherwise Legacy would be way, way more popular than Standard. There is no reason to believe it will work now.
This should not be the response to the real issue here. If so, it admits that present Legacy is an exclusive and money-oriented format. While I am happy to spend money to slowly complete my Reanimator and ANT deck, most players are not. They would rather shell out 180 or so for Jund than 350 for Merfolk (or double that for pretty much anyhting else). If the only "draw" to Legacy is its expensive but satisfying card pool, then this format is in serious trouble. "If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, etc." is a majorly unsustainable argument. Of those formats you mentioned, the first few (Standard, Draft, Sealed, Extended) are all more popular than Legacy (although Extended is definitely losing out there). I do not intend on offending you or your position here. I am simply offering that this argument should not be used to champion the format. We want the format to expand, not contract.Quote:
I bought duals for under 10 bucks a few years ago. Last month I purchased the remaining duals to finish my 40 for 450 dollars. I invest in what I enjoy. Magic is a labor of love. If you don't want to invest in legacy, fine, go play standard, draft, sealed, extended, EDH, pauper, block, packwars, cube, mental, 250, type 4, creature feature, singleton standard, cyos, Mortal Combat (Ames, Iowa format), and let the people who really care about the format enjoy it for what it is alone. Don't mess with our format.
This is a response to the real issue here.
-Peace
This is a good way of considering the new format. Magic is definitely growing in popularity. Tournament attendance is higher than ever, and Magic sales are holding strong, and even increasing, despite economic downturns and a general decline in consumer spending. With more players entering this game, there are going to need to be more options. Some players will like Standard, and that's great for them. Others will have the money and/or previous investment in Magic to play Legacy, and that's great for them. But in my experience, there is a large portion of casual-esque and somewhat-veteran players who do not have the money and cards to play Legacy, but do not want to respend money on new Standard decks every year. These are the guys who played Tooth and Nail, Astral Slide, Psychatog, and Suicide Black back in the day. Many of them are under the impression (which might be innaccurate), that these decks would have a serious fighting chance in a decently moderated new format.Quote:
Originally Posted by quadibloc
Overall, there are a few aspects of Legacy that people here cannot avoid.
1) Legacy is an expensive format. We can rationalize it as an investment and a good, long-lasting purchase. We can say it is satisfying to complete a deck. But the bottom line is that people are not rational economic agents. Players would rather spend 40 dollars here and 40 dollars there to complete a Jund deck in a month, rather than spend 100 dollars here and 100 dollars there to complete a CounterTop deck in a year.
2) Legacy is PERCEIVED as an expensive format. When we calculate out deck prices as I have done in previous posts, we see that Standard and Legacy don't have as many price differences as we might initially believe. Yet, there are tons of arguments on this forum and others that "legacy is expensive." We are left to conclude that players don't want to make the calculation of format price, and are content with the general rumor that Legacy is just expensive. It's wrong, but it's their perception.
3) Magic players are like normal people. Some are good with investing money, but most are not. I have explained this above.
These 3 reasons contribute towards a larger Legacy problem (along with those other, less quanitifiable ones like perceived arrogance of the players, high transition costs, difficulty in finding events, etc). A new format would solve SOME of these problems without utterly murdering Legacy as a whole.
-ktkenshinx-
Wait...so, is this the new format?
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...tg/daily/sf/88
'Godzilla'? Mutliplayer fatty creatures?
I am excited for a half legacy half extended format, i've always wish that extended, uh, extended further back. hur hur. Would be very fun to play, thought I wish the cutoff were at Urza
No. Wizards often discusses casual formats on its site. Thus, there was a discussion of Choose Your Own Standard a while back. A great format, but not likely one that Wizards will officially support, because it pretty much doesn't drive the purchase of new cards at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabal_chan
No; the rumor was that Wizards would add to its line-up of major supported formats an eternal format with the Mercadian Masques block as a starting point. The intent would be to have a format that could fill the role that Legacy is becoming increasingly unable to fill as its staple cards continue to soar in value, so that cards continue to have a life after Extended.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty happy with how Legacy is right now. Sure there isn't Friday night magic Legacy or "More local events," whatever that means. At the same time though I look in the forums and there is a tournament worth traveling to almost every weekend. I mean from now through the end of the summer I'll go to 2 Starcity Opens, a Power 9 draft, and a GP. Standard and Extended are there for people who want to play them, they appeal to people who play lots of Magic and open packs and have nothing better to do on a Friday night then go to FNM. Legacy's core audience is older then FNM on average I would guess by about 3-5 years. Playing a format that is going to rotate every X amount of time doesn't appeal to me. I don't care about new cards. I grew up playing Magic when the old cards were the new cards. I see the allure of T2 but it's for a certain player and I'm not that guy.
Now when I was young and could not afford sweet shit, I wanted to play Vintage so bad. It wasn't for me though. Legacy is an Eternal format. These kids are out there crying that Legacy is too expensive and at the same time they spend hundreds of dollars every time a block rotates. Everyone wants cheap shit. Gas was 99 cents when I started driving by this summer it will be $3 a gallon. Dual lands have barely kept up with gas prices on inflation. New format is bullshit. Everyone is talking out of their ass right now but I haven't seen one reason to believe that Wizards is actually considering this and every bit of evidence to suggest some kid with one post made a thread on MTGSalvation and it got blown out of proportion. Legacy is always going to be expensive, vintage is always going to be expensive, eternal formats are always going to be expensive. Any set that doesn't rotate is going to cost loot to make a good deck. Wizards just reprinted Force of Will online, what, like 2 years ago, and they cost about +$200 a piece now AND they can only be played in the least popular format Wizards currently supports (Online Classic). WOTC being able to reprint cards does not equal an affordable format, in the end it just comes down to do you want to play Magic every week and buy new cards all the time or do you want to buy a deck that will be good for a long time. Almost all the top 10 decks in Legacy were around in some form when Tarmogoyf came out and most have changed little since. In the end a lot of people just like to complain. Evidence supports to fact they could have made a Legacy deck long ago and been done with it but they "OMG want to play so bad, but it's too expensive" and just played T2/Ext instead. It's always going to be like this. Wizards may one day break the reserved list since, you know, in the end it's just something they made up and is not legally binding in any way. Even if that happens they will never reprint to the point where duals are under $20 a piece and the same people complaining now will still be sitting on the sidelines. A lot of those people could play Legacy if they really wanted to that bad but they'd rather spend money on other things, which is fine, either that or they can't even afford to put together a descent Ext deck since that's roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a Legacy deck nowadays depending and that Ext deck will rotate out in a couple months anyways.