Do you people think this is ready to be moved to Established?
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Do you people think this is ready to be moved to Established?
I played a local legacy tournament with the same list as before and got 4th out of 22. I was going to write a report, but I can't remember much, probably due to post traumatic stress disorder caused by loosing to Kodama of the North Tree 2 consecutive games.
If anyone is interested I'll try harder, but most rounds are "drop energy flux against affinity player, he dies."
I almost wet my pants reading this. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
Last weekend, I won a small (10 peeps) tournament with a UWb list, going 3-0-1.
The matchups:
2-1 against Dredge (dude was a real noobie and me being more experienced beating his deck than him playing his deck just won)
1-1-1 against BGw Loampox (my sideboarding was prob'ly incorrect - lost to Worm Harvest tokens, but didn't board EE)
2-1 against Ub Merfolk (the loss was due to me forgetting to pay for a Peacekeeper trigger, somehow got sidetracked...)
2-0 against 4c CounterTop
List was this:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
//Walker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Permission
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Go for the Throat
3 Vindicate
//Sideboard
3 Peacekeeper
2 Duress
2 Esper Charm
1 Academy Ruins
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Meddling Mage
Meddling Mage in the SB was kind of odd and I ditched him in the meantime... still, this list is awesome. Merfolk suddenly is quite easily defeatable with the amount of removal I run. I probably gotta run 2 WoG in the sideboard for future tournaments though. Goblins roflstomp this deck.
Nice list, although I'd go -1 Sea +1 Tundra.
How has esper charm been running? It seems a bit underwhelming.
I'd actually go with 4 Tundras too, but frankly I only own 3. ^^
Esper Charm is really really good in the control mirror (especially against other CB builds) and against combo. I really can't find any card that's so good in so many random matchups, so I'm probably gonna stick with them because I like my sideboard flexible. Basically, they come in every time I have dead/excess creaturekill in my deck, so might as well draw some more cards.
I think this deck is ready to be in established. I am going to take this deck to a legacy tourney next weekend. I am going to make some minor changes with my SCG list.
Hey guys, I had originally posted this in the landstill Thread and they sent me over to you, saying that my list looked more like countertop walker and well, here I am asking for your advice.
One thing I have to say, I am planning on running this list in April at SCG Boston, and following that GP Providence, and am running out of money, so some choices are made for monetary reasons, like not running JTMS, If i can get them I will use them, but Have been burning through my Trade Bait to get what I have so far, I started in standard, and came to Legacy so my cardpool was not amazing, That being said, the LIST!
Lands:
Island x4
Plains x4
Swamp x2
Mishra's Factory x4
Tundra x2
Creeping Tar Pit x2
Celestial Colonnade x2 Will be Hallowed Fount When i get them,
Watery Grave x2
I am trying to get Tundras and Seas for the Graves and Colonnades, but I dont know If I will have the money so I am trying to tweak the list as best as possible.
Instant:
Diabolic Edict x3
Swords to Plowshares x4
Force of Will x4
Counterspell x4
Sorcery
Wrath of God x3
Decree of Justice x2
Enchantment
Oblivion Ring x4
Standstill x4
Counterbalance x3
Artifact
Sensei's Divining Top x3
Planeswalker
Elspeth Knight Errant x2
Jace Beleren x2
Reasons for some choices,
Other than monetary Reasons, one thing that I had notices about running counterbalance is I was light on CMC 3, I added Jace 1.0 due to lacking the money for 2.0 and for the fact it is a CMC 3 that helps make up what I am missing. I am thinking on Dropping the Standstills to 3, adding another Counterbalance, Dropping wrath to 2 and adding another Top. If I had Vindicate it would be in instead of Oblivion ring, though O-ring would be sideboarded for stuff like Emrakul. I am looking into getting some Esper Charms for the as it really seems to improve control matches like nemesis said.
The meta I play in is pretty aggro intensive, so far, this is what I am finding works best, I find the Tarpits are actually working very well for me, and they help me in the Stompy matchup which I am finding more and more common locally.
Thanks in advance guys!
O-Ring is a decent replacement for Vindicate if you're on a budget. You absolutely will need fetchlands though, because of their awesome interaction with Brainstorm and SDT. That said, where the heck is your playset of Brainstorm?
Oh and you totally have to run Predict. They make this deck what it is and are the main reason why this deck is actually better than Landstill. Other than that: Run 4 SDT and 4 CB. SDT is simply the best card in the deck (if you run fetches) and CBTop is still your plan A.
Took my deck to a 18 man tourney today at Superstar, San Jose, CA.
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
2x Vedalken Shackle
3x Counterspell
2x Path to Exile
2x Firespout
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
2x Elspeth Knight Errant
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
1x Tropical Island
4x Island
2x Plain
1x Academy Ruin
1x Kor Haven
SB:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Peacekeeper
1x Firespout
1x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Enlightened Tutor
I figure the graveyard hate is unnecessary since the banning of Survival and I feel that they are taking so much slot where those slots could address Merfolk. The 1 of tutor and the 1 of needle and crypt give me a mini tool box and act as a 5th CB or 3rd EE. Predicts can make up for some of that lost card advantage.
Round 1: RB Goblin 2-0
Game 1: He kept drawing ports, but I kept on drawing land. I landed 2 shackle and he scoops to save time.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: Shackle again. Not much to say here.
Round 2: Forgemaster MUD 2-0
Game 1: He mull down to 6 and he started with Mox Diamond, land, Monolith, Metalwalker. Then I play a Tundra and StP. He got a Goblin Welder out 2 turns later and I have Shackle active. Jace locked him out moments later.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: He land an early Metalwalker which I took out with PtE. Then he landed a Lodestone Golem and hit me for 2 turn. I got Shackle online. He drew nothing and I get the Jace out to lock him out and go to down with his Golem.
Round 3: Junk 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 top, Turn 2 CB. He couldn't do much. I just take out all his dudes with StP and PtE and landed a Walker.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 FS, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile, +1 Tormod's Crypt
Game 2: Assemble CT by turn 3. Got Elspeth out and get the job done.
Round 4: Merfolk 0-2
Game 1: I just draw bunch of land and Coralhelm Commander just took me down.
SB: -4 Fow, -4 CB, -3 CS, -1 Predict. Side in everything in my SB except the crypt and the cliques.
Game 2: I had turn 1 needle naming vial, then try to land top on turn 2, but he FoW, then wasted my dual. GG for me.
Round 5: ID
Top 8: RB Goblin from Round 1 2-1
Game 1: I have 2 Shackle in play. Nothing is going through.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 CB, +1 Enlightened Tutor,+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firespout, +2 Engineered Explosive, +1 Path to Exile
Game 2: I have needle naming vial and I have Shackle in play. He played couple Warchief and Chieftain and took me out quickly.
Game 3: Got Shackle out on turn 3 again!! Land Elspeth, then Jace. He took out the Jace with REB. I ultimate Elspeth. He had no answer to it. I have bunch of token and indestructible Shackle active. I can also lock him out with EE since I have Ruins in my hand. He scoops.
Top 4: Mono Blue Merfolk 1-2
Game 1: He blew me away.
SB: -4 Fow, -1 CB, -3 CS, -4 Predict. Side in everything in my SB except the crypt and the cliques.
Game 2: Turn 2 CB, follow by a Firespout, then a Peacekeeper. I drew a Top later, kept a 2 CC on top to prevent Echoing Truth. I landed Jace and Ultimate him.
Game 3: This game should have been mine. I got peacekeeper out again, but he played Back to Basics. I completely forgot that REB can take any blue permanent and I was stupid enough to fetch a basic plain instead of a Volcanic. He bounced my Peacekeeper with Echoing Truth and I have no 2 CC on top, then his lord did 14 damage on me.
4th place out of 18 people
Props:
Shackle being MVP of the day!
Peacekeeper, you are the real deal against Merfolk and random crap.
My SB, for holding up so well the whole tourney.
Weather is very nice today.
Slops:
Forgot that REB take out any blue cards.
Losing to Merfolk twice, I am 2-6//0-3 against them with this deck now. Gotta overcome this demon somehow.
I'm interested in this deck. Plan on doing some testing with it. I like the fact that the deck renders opponent's removal dead. Quick question, why the 2/2 Jace/Elspeth split? I'm more inclined to play 3 Jace, 1 Elspeth as Jace is such a house + blue card to pitch to force. Jace TMS IMO is a better finisher since it locks opponents out as well. Also, why is spell snare not popular? I've played Snare in various countertop decks and landstill, it's cheap and useful. I'm planning on playing a UWbr version:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Counterspell
2 Predict
2 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
2 Shackles
4 STP
2 Path
3 Vindicate
1 Elspeth
3 Jace TMS
4 Flooded
4 Delta
1 Scalding
4 Tundra
2 Sea
2 Volc
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
SB:
2 Needle
1 Path
3 Firespout
2 EE
3 Extirpate
4 REB
Any advice for someone new to CounterTop Walker? What advantages does this have over landstill/ Countertop-goyf? The obvious ones are: Shackles = Win against goblins/merfolk if it sticks. No goyfs= auto CA against decks with removal. Anything else I'm missing?
I audibled to a UWb build when I couldn't pull the cards together for big zoo at a local 22 person event. I should have played UWr considering there were 4+ goblins and 2 merfolk or so. I beat UGR Show and Tell/Cascade-Hypergenesis and UGR Grow, lost to 12post/Candelabra/Emrakul (almost an impossible matchup), Affinity & Sneak/Show. Emrakul 3/5 rounds is kind of a pain. Counterbalance felt weak. Poor mull/sideboard decisions did not help.
On Elspeth: I would classify her as a better finisher than Jace and wouldn't drop below 2. I won with Elspeth every time except for one concession to a ramping Jace. I'd consider a 2/3 split but 5 plainswalkers feels heavy considering you don't want to see them early.
To put it simply: Because of those dreaded Tribal/aggro matchups. You can't stick Jace if you haven't stabilized the board yet, whereas Elspeth helps you in stabilizing. Also, with a 2/2 split you can go Superfriends mode more often. Double Planeswalker is teh nutz.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I have a small report from yesterday, 57 people tournament @ Duelmen, GER. I played the UWb list from some posts ago, with the sideboard being as follows:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
3 Duress
1 Wrath of God
2 Esper Charm
Round 1 - Dredge:
Game 1: He wins the die roll and goes City of Brass -> Tireless Tribe. I scoop it up in response, so he doesn't know what to board.
Game 2: I mull to 6, looking for some relevant cards, then open with Island, Top, Tormod's Crypt. He has to read the Crypt and I start figuring he's somehow really bad. He goes Turn 1 PImp, discards 3 cards, then passes. I play another land and pass. He forgets to dredge, then plays Careful Study, which resolves, dredging something like 10 cards. No Narcomoebas though, so I let him proceed. He then casts Breakthrough for 0, which also resolves, setting fire to about 2/3 of his library. I exile his graveyard in response to a Narcomoeba trigger, after which he doesn't do anything relevant anymore.
Game 3: I open with USea, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb. I manage to grind out the game with Ruins/Spellbomb lock and then beat him down with Elspeth.
1-0
Round 2 - Green & Taxes:
Game 1: I kill some dudes, take some damage from Scryb Ranger, then get double Shackles active. Jace seals the game under CBTop, him having Vial@3, me putting down 3 Mangaras.
Game 2: I mull to 6, keep a bad hand, don't draw enough relevant stuff and get stomped to death by Knight of the Reliquary. He tells me he's running a singleton Thrun, the Last Troll, so I board in my singleton Wrath of God.
Game 3: I mull to 5, keeping a weak hand of 2 Lands, 2 Counterspells and Force of Will. I counter his first Knight, then he goes Turn 4 Thrun. I start digging for my WoG with a topdecked SDT, but fail to find it in time. Nice.... first being trolled by my deck, then my opponent...
1-1
Round 3 - Monoblack Control:
Game 1: I keep very solid 7 cards with permission, removal (GftT and Vindicate), some lands and Brainstorm. His first business is Turn 2 Smallpox, which I let resolve after brainstorming, figuring I've got enough land to drop 4 of them if unmolested further. He then drops Phyrexian Arena, which is met with Vindicate the turn after. After that, The Rack comes down, dealing me 5 damage over the rest of the game. I manage to get CBTop active, draw some cards and Jace him out.
Game 2: He Blackmails me Turn 1, but I don't show him my Counterbalance. I get CBTop active turn 3, which promptly locks him out. Jace lands after 2 Predicts and an Esper Charm, he's dead.
2-1
Round 4 - Sneak and Show:
Game 1: I keep a hand with FoW, Brainstorm, Predict, lands and Shackles. We drop some lands, he casts Turn 3 SnT, I try to force, he forces back, then puts Progenitus into play. Damnit.
Game 2: I mull to 6, keep a business-light hand with Duress and Esper Charm, then only see lands for 3 Turns. I can blow up his first Sneak Attack, but he's got a second one. Then Emrakul tentacle rapes me.
2-2
Round 5 - Dredge again:
Game 1: I scoop it up in response to Putrid Imp.
Game 2: I mull to 6, then Spellbomb-lock him out quickly.
Game 3: I mull to 6, but can't manage to find any hate. I brainstorm into Peacekeeper turn 4, but can't drop him because I'm 1 mana short. My opponent has lethal damage available, but forgets his second Ichorid, putting me at 3. I drop Peacekeeper, he has no solutions and it's easy going from that point.
3-2
Round 6 - Ugb Threshold:
Game 1: His mana denial doesn't quite affect me, but he can counter my Elspeth that would've dealt with his lone Mongoose. Having no other outs, we go to game 2.
Game 2: My memory is a little blurry here. I can somehow draw out his countermagic with Jace and Counterspell, then drop Elspeth and Shackles. He then accompanies his single Mongoose with 2 Tarmogoyfs, which would have cost him the game if I wasn't such a scrub. I topdeck EE, first want to cast it for 1, but then decide to blow up his Goyfs. Yeah, somehow I seem to like losing... Mongoose then eats my face, while my opponent kills my blockers with topdecked removal...
3-3
Gotta practice playing this list more. It's extremely powerful but does jack diddly if you're a bad player like myself...
@ hyc8028
I see that you board out your FoW's in every matchup. What is the reasoning behind this? Is it just because the rest of the deck is to tight to board out? I get it against the agro matchups but against the MUD I would have definately kept them in.
FoW definitely have it moment against MUD game 1, but I felt that PTE/STP is better off addressing stuff that I want to FoW. One you take out an early Metalworker/Goblin Welder. They are stuck with a fatty or some dead cards. MUD is just like stompy variant. They have to mull a lot and their deck is very hand dependent. Also, they have to devote a lot of resource to land one threat, which this deck has no problem dealing with them. Once you take out one of the key pierces (Metalworker/Welder), they are not that scary.
I take out FoW because the deck is tight and I feel like FoW is not needed against aggro deck. Against Goblin, I ll just let them have their vial and focus on landing a walker/shackle. Against Junk, they would thoughtseize/duress before landing any relevant threat. Have CBtop is more important in that match it basically lock half of their deck. Don't get me wrong. It is the best card in legacy. I just feel FoW unnecessary against aggro deck when I can 1 for 1 the creature every time and get the CB lock/Shackle/Walker down to take control of the game.
I for some reason space-caddett'd your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by .nemesis
The reason for the absence of Brainstorm, is the lack of fetch lands. As I am starting to run out of money, the choices I have to make are becoming more and more arduous. If I can get them before April and May, brainstorm will definitely be in the deck, If I cannot then I will try to make due with what I have.
The Exlusion of Predict is the Lack the JTMS. I am looking towards getting Predicts so I can test without having JTMS to help it along, I am doubtful it will be too powerful, but hopeful enough it will do its thing. I am trying to get a 4th Top, If I can It will be in, along with a 4th Counter Balance.
I am thinking my biggest issue here is I like the eternal formats as a player, I hate them as a minimum wage earner supporting his family.
I really like FoW against Stompy-ish decks. When they get to play first, they aim for some really unfair play on the first turn, and some of those plays actually do win the game almost on the spot. Think Trinisphere or Monolith/Key into Forgemaster. If you can get their first drop and they've spent lots of ressources on it, it's a really juicy target for FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyc8028
I actually lost to Forgemaster MUD last week though. Turns out keeping a G1 hand without FoW but with Counterspell was much too slow. Some advice though: Peacekeeper is the nuts against them as they have almost 0 ways to get rid of it. Shackling their Welders also wreaks havoc upon their board development.
This is exactly my experience, adressing the tribal matchups. This deck is really good at trading 1:1 with aggro each turn and then drown them in card advantage. I usually don't want all the 4 FoWs against aggro, boarding them out frequently too.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyc8028
Nemesis did you miss my last post?
Also, could I try running Predict with brainstorm and using the predict on my self?
Should I get the fetch lands before the Dual Lands I need? Or the two Tundra?
Most of the time we target predict on ourselves to get rid of dead stuff. With top out, it should let us see 3 new cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatusnox
You should get the duals first if you can. It seems like they are just going to be more expensive.
Looks like im getting me a playset of predicts then. I can use Brainstorm as well now.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyc8028
I played in my only 2nd legacy tournament just a week ago (and I've been playing sealed, draft and standard for over 12 years now), the 1st was some years ago in a sideevent at a GP with a fiends deck so doesn't really count.
Allthough I have most of the staples and seeing as is is on the rise in my area I'd take a crack at it.
The deck I played for 4 rounds was not the worst, but I made a lot of deckbuilding mistakes and ended up loosing all 4 rounds and going 1-8 i games.... Not quite what I'm used to in the other formats. So I have made a new deck and want your comments.
Here's the deck:
V.2
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Future Sight
2 Counterbalance
1 Propaganda
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Pithing Needle
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Kor haven
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
I am contemplating to switch a Jace for either a control magic or Pendrell Mists (or even Annex) to both have more to deal with creatures and have CMC 4 to tutor up and put on top for Counterbalance, is this an good idea?
I have another idea of splahsing black via a Underground Sea and a swamp instead of 2 of the regular islands for this:
main:
in: Underground Sea + Swamp out: 2 islands
SB:
in: 3 Extirpate and 1 Nihil Spellbomb instead of the 4 Leyline of Sanctity to better battle mirrors, vengevines and all graveyard functions
in: 1 Wrath of God instead of one of the Tormod's Crypts now that the graveyard battle is a lot better
in: both Oblivion Ring and Crucible of Worlds swicthed for 2 Vindicates for added flexibility.
And are there any other pitfalls I have missed before again going to a legacy tournament?