[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Dzra

For Goblins, 2 for 1 discard seems really good, I think the Thoughtseize might be weak. I might try +4 Path, +2 Deed, +2 Verdict, -4 Thoughtseize, -4 Vindicate. Maybe add 2 Thoughtseize back in when on the play instead of something?

The way most of my Zoo MUs seem to go is: they play a dude, I immediately Swords it. Then I either Hymn, Goyf, or Bob or sometimes Wasteland/Vindicate. Mox Diamonds are really key when you pair it up with LD. Against Zoo you really have to play the tempo game. Don't be afraid to Swords that Steppe Lynx or Nacatl. Sure, they'll play a Goyf or KotR eventually but by then they're either behind on mana, cards, or both.

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I've found Thoughtseize to be 1 of the best cards against Goblins. Ringleader is key here, if you can nab one out of their hand early, you have a good chance.

We can easily trade 1 for 1 with Zoo's creatures and come out on top. Against Goblins you're screwed if you have to do that. Deed is also not so good against them because they have quite a high mana curve and they play more mana denial than Merfolk (Rishadan Port in addtion to Wasteland). I also think Goblins is the hardest aggro matchup.

Survival banned; I think we'll go back to the pre-Suvival meta with a lot of aggro (Merfolk, Gobs and Zoo) and some CounterTop, Landstill and Storm Combo. I'm already trying out an old controllish Rock list of mine which should do pretty good against aggro and CounterTop (a lot worse against combo though).

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Before survival got banned, people began to play more and more ANT, which will likely continue, at least in the near future. With the addition of Time Spiral, I think we're going to see quite a lot of storm. It may not be the place to discuss this, but if what I said happens, this deck should be adjusted to be able to beat combo more efficiently (pack more hatebears and disruption).

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I'm hoping CounterTop will see more play again keeping combo in check. If you really run into lots of combo, I'd play another deck instead of trying to tune this one to beat combo.

That's really disappointing, I wish they wouldn't snap ban staples. The only really broken Survival deck in my opinion is Ooze and no one would complain about Phyrexian Devourer getting banned. You'd think they'd use their heads occasionally. /rant

Anyways, yeah, there's no reason to believe that there's going to be a whole lot more Storm now. The last meta was the best time for Storm since Mystical got banned. I expect the Buried Alive deck to get some notice as it still uses the Ooze combo. Other than that though, it looks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo are going to be on top. Perhaps, luckily for us, Zoo (Burn Zoo in particular) has good MUs against the other two aggro decks and we have a good MU vs Zoo.

Any way you look at it, we just got shafted. Survival was a decent-good M/U for us and it beat the decks that we had problems with. With Survival gone, we're back to tier 2. I'll have to make some adjustments to my build to try and keep it semi-viable for KC. At the least I'll be cutting some Pridemages and I may take Mindcensor out of the board, although it's a good play against storm still and any Intuition-based VV decks.

So I guess we are going back to square 1.. More merfolks, and traditional zoo will be coming up in metagames...More problems for this deck will arise, and we all have to adjust, to a slightly faster metagame in terms of beatdown...

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

So I guess we are going back to square 1.. More merfolks, and traditional zoo will be coming up in metagames...More problems for this deck will arise, and we all have to adjust, to a slightly faster metagame in terms of beatdown...

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The problem is we're based around discard, which is poor against decks that empty their hands quickly, and 3cc spells which are just too slow to deal with things like Nacatl or Ringleader into 3 gobbos. We're still fine against control and combo where we can get good value out of our cards, but we're not a fast deck. No Survival will probably mean more NOPro; I would suggest you guys start maining Edict or Tariff and ramping up the removal. I don't think we can support Gatekeeper, but maybe there's a beater out there that we can use that doubles as removal. I'm just not sure where we can go to stay viable.

We'll still be viable, don't get us wrong. But we're no longer AS good as we were, as we were preying on Survival. I wouldn't say we're Tier 2 now, I'd still say we're 1.5 like the rest of the decks in the developing competitive. I think I can now take most of the gravehate out (Extirpates, etc.) and focus on putting Edicts and the like back in. It may be time to go to a Stoneforge build just to have more game against Aggro.

-Matt

I think you guys are overdoing it here. Brad Nelson's list that got all the hype at GP Columbus was before Survival really took off. I've been playing all this time in a mostly aggro meta (lot's of Goblins, Sligh, and Zoo) and I've been doing very well. The main MD changes I'd made are -2 Verdicts, +1 Deed, +1 Elspeth. 10 discard can be a bit much against aggro I think, so the extra removal and the extra reach help. The sideboard is where you really get to go to town, but honestly the stock MD is still very powerful. If you've been on the fence about Mox Diamond, an aggro meta is where you'll want the extra tempo.

Also, I don't know why I'd never thought of Tariff before, but if you are running into a lot of NO decks, Tariff is the way to go. Edict really is just bad. NO decks always have the extra creatures around to sac or else they're just a bad player. Still, I feel that you still have a good chance at winning the NO MU without either and just disrupting their mana/hand.

Tariff is terrible. Perish does the same thing and has so many other applications.

Perish is a board wipe for you as well. Tariff forces them to sac Prog and there's a fair chance you can save your creature. I'm not about to run either because NO isn't a problem in my meta, but Tariff handles it a lot better than Perish or Edict.

what made the discard good was diamond. Diamond just sped up the deck. I don't see the problems with Nelson's list. I have already tried with mystics. the one thing i'm not sold on is the witness. My curve is fairly high. I have 12 3cmc which might be a problem. I mainly need to test i guess.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I think you guys are overdoing it here. Brad Nelson's list that got all the hype at GP Columbus was before Survival really took off. I've been playing all this time in a mostly aggro meta (lot's of Goblins, Sligh, and Zoo) and I've been doing very well. The main MD changes I'd made are -2 Verdicts, +1 Deed, +1 Elspeth. 10 discard can be a bit much against aggro I think, so the extra removal and the extra reach help. The sideboard is where you really get to go to town, but honestly the stock MD is still very powerful. If you've been on the fence about Mox Diamond, an aggro meta is where you'll want the extra tempo.

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This.

There's nothing wrong with the Brad Nelson list in a meta without Survival. The only change you could make is take out the Gerrard's Verdicts for something else (possibly more removal). I'm running the same main deck as Dzra and it's been doing very well against most of the Tier 1 decks.

If anything, the banning makes other approaches to The Rock viable again (for example a more controllish list with less discard and more removal can do well in a aggro meta).

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Originally Posted by ZZZ

This.

There's nothing wrong with the Brad Nelson list in a meta without Survival. The only change you could make is take out the Gerrard's Verdicts for something else (possibly more removal). I'm running the same main deck as Dzra and it's been doing very well against most of the Tier 1 decks.

If anything, the banning makes other approaches to The Rock viable again (for example a more controllish list with less discard and more removal can do well in a aggro meta).

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The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.

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I don't think diamond is bad. I don't play it. I don't like it. It is tempo. A lot of people use card that creatre tempo. Fow, Stifle, daze. I realize Stifle isn't used that much, daze is ehh... But teh point remains the same. They aren't bad cards. Diamond is a tempo card. I could open with hymn, verdict or bob. But as the game progresses i could topdeck a diamon which is almost always strcitly worse than getting a land. Mox diamond sacrifices consistancy for explosiveness. I would much rather topdeck more threats/answers than something like diamond.

The thing is that turn 2 is the fundamental turn in legacy. Things get done on turn 2. For a deck that has the majority of its spells sitting at 2-3 cmc, we need a way to either stall them or speed us up. Mox Diamond does that for us and Wasteland does that for us. Together they are twice as broken. Two for one discard does that for us. Turn 2 Vindicate is brutal, especially if you are on the play and/or if you played Hymn/Bob turn 1. Last night, I even played a turn 1 KotR against a friend playing Merfolk. The Knight comes down as a 5/5. That's gg. Turn 1 Goyf might be subpar against a lot of MUs, but against one of our worst MUs (Goblins), it is probably the best play in the books.

Legacy is a format full of powerful and silly interactions, especially early in the game. If you want to play a very "fair" deck, don't use Diamonds. If you want the ability to explode and gain enormous advantage over your opponent then you need Mox Diamond. In fact, I would almost go as far to say Mox Diamond doesn't compliment this deck so much as this deck was built to abuse Mox Diamond. Does it happen every game? No. Is it a lackluster topdeck? Yes. But the key is that the deck is built to abuse early Diamonds, recover from late Diamonds (Tops, Bob), and be able to put up a good fight when it doesn't get Diamond (Wasteland, Vindicate, Deed).

i think i have to add my 2 cents to thins conversation,.... i am using mox diamonds and i just love them

i used birds of paradise before, i played a more controllish build, but the best list i was using is the tempobased strategy of brad nelsons list, and i do not think that his list was flawed, since lists similar to his made a lot of T8 afterwards

yes mox diamonds sacrifice consistency for speed, but it is actually worth it, since like this you can get rid of threads/problems even before they appear with discard, and that even on turn 1.... ok yeah thoughtseize does the same as well, BUT with mox+hymn you can wreck your opponents day if your picking the right things, and it will allways be CA
i am well aware of the pro an cons to mox diamond but if you have a build in which they fit in, you should not have any problems with the drawback of mox

i for my part wont go back to a list without mox diamonds, and the only thing that i would change in brad nelsons list would be the 2 verdicts, but even that would strongly depend on the meta, meaning i would only change the 2 verdicts into something else if i would have a more aggro-heavy meta, and if i would be in a more aggro meta, i probably would opt for 2 dorans, since he would stop lots of merfolk/goblin/affinity aggression, just for his sice and ability

hopefully my thoughts got through to you (i think my english is not to awesome, but the bigger problem is me often being confused^^)


- funny, Dzra was just a bit faster, and pointed the same thoughts out, but a lot clearlyier than i did^^

As i was trying to get at before, it's preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It just comes down to play style. You can have ridiculous plays that could make you win the game before the opponent even has a turn. But in order to try and achieve this you lose some consistency

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

The thing is, none of us are as good as Brad Nelson and his list was flawed in the first place. I went over it in the old thread, but if you run the numbers, you realize that Mox Diamond is bad in this deck. In accelerating Hymn or Confidant on turn 1, it's great. In accelerating Vindicate or Knight on turn 2, it's acceptable. In fringe cases where you're facing Waste-lock or Blood Moon it's ok. It's good with EE for killing planeswalkers but that's a bit of a corner-case as well.

Outside of those instances, Mox Diamond is terrible. People justify it by saying "you can use it to pump KotR or Goyf". But
Let's be honest, it's of questionable use and other cards would serve that purpose better (Jitte/Swords). So really, you're looking at times when it's in your starting hand (or topdeck on the draw) and you have Hymn/Confidant in your grip as well (turn 1 Goyf is unimpressive) as very useful and times when it's in your first draw (or first two on the draw) as somewhat useful with Vindicate or KotR. So it's very useful about 1/3rd of the time and somewhat useful just under half of the time (assuming 3 Diamonds). You're playing a card that's dead (or damn close to it) in over half the games you play. Unless you're very lucky, that's just a bad idea. And the two cards you really want to cast off of it merely erase the disadvantage of playing it, they don't generate card advantage by using Mox Diamond. You do get some tempo advantage, but Rock doesn't play the tempo game nearly as well as say New Horizons or Team America. Even CB Bant is better with tempo.

Basically, it's poor construction overcome by a pro-level player and piloted to a T8 by a combination of luck and skill.

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I think Mox Diamond contributes to the versatility of this deck. You’re right that there are decks which can play the tempo game better than us, there are also decks which can play the control or the aggro game better. What I have found important when playing the Brad Nelson list, is understanding which role you need to take on. If the matchup or situation lends itself to play the tempo game, Mox Diamond allows you to do so by accelerating into Hymn, Confidant, Vindicate or whatever. If we need to play a more controllish game, there’s a good chance you’re playing against a deck that packs Wasteland (Merfolk or Goblins for example), here Mox Diamond is a non-wasteable mana source and a colour fixer.
I also think that Hymn, Bob or Vindicate aren’t the only cards you want to accelerate into. Against aggro decks, it’s often important to play the turn 2 Bob and still keep the mana open for Swords to Plowshares. Against Merfolk for example, Mox Diamond has often allowed me to play that Deed around Daze on the turn it mattered. There are lots of other examples.

I think that unless you’re playing a controlling build of The Rock, some sort of acceleration is needed. I prefer Mox Diamond over Hierarch and BoP because it enables more turn 1 plays, can’t be plowed/pathed and provides all colours of mana (BoP as well obviously).

If only Hierarch tapped for black. Maybe they can print a BGW wedge equivalent in the Commander decks. Well, I can dream anyway.

It's the perfect creature for this deck. Just... one color off.

I definitely think Nobles/Birds can be strong, but neither one of those is a better topdeck than Diamond and neither one allows for broken t1 plays like Diamond. Against Survival decks, I found myself constantly Swordsing their Nobles to slow them down. It works, especially since we can follow up with a Wasteland or Vindicate. I even watched my friend (playing Survival) get two of his Nobles Swords'd in a row. Every game against Survival that I saw a first/second turn Noble Swords'd, the Survival deck lost. Survival is obviously gone, but the point is that we don't want to be carrying that same vulnerability. We are even more color dependent than Survival (although perhaps not as mana hungry).

Anyways, I'm sure this debate will get resurrected every now and then in this thread, but I'm definitely not willing to chalk it up to Brad Nelson simply being a great player or some people's playstyles are different. I feel like on the Mox Diamond issue (at least in the deck's current incarnation) there is a right answer. <3

I disagree with the Mox Diamond argument. Mox Diamond allows for explosive plays on turn 1, sacrificed for mana stability throughout the game. You're losing actual lands for Mox Diamond to provide broken plays some of the time. In some cases, the benefits of a turn 1 2-drop outweigh the risks of stalling on lands the next turn and previous.

A good example is Stax. Stax is content with not playing lands on turn 2 because of the busted things that can be played turn 1 via Mox Diamond. A turn-1 Trinisphere is fine by me, even if I don't have a land to follow it up with on turn-2. If you feel that you're getting extreme benefit from Mox Diamond such as this, then you should play it. If you're looking for less-busted turn 1's, but more overall mana stability against opposing land destruction and drawing more lands more often for larger threats, than perhaps Mox isn't the best route for you, and perhaps Noble, Birds, or just more lands is the route to go.

There is no "right answer" here, as there are several factors: what's your playstyle, what are the matchups in your metagame, what do you prefer, etc. We've outlined the options for mana acceleration to use at your will, but one thing is certain: playing better things faster is good, but so is not getting mana screwed.

/end discussion (dramatic effect, not literal)

-Matt