Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

It's not like he picked the most expensive cards in the format and mashed them into decks to bias his numbers. He simply took the previous tournament winners and calculated the deck price. Which, assuming the card prices were right, is a good way to do it since budgets decks and tier 2+ decks that never win anything shouldn't really be counted.

It's the same as repeating the "you can compete with X budget deck and it costs only Y" argument. Sure, but when was the last time it came Top 8 in a major tournament?

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Originally Posted by JACO

Are you using StarCity's prices for those numbers, or what exactly? I'm updating a spreadsheet now that I used to use to track deck costs in paper and MTGO, and I'll try to put it up online in the next couple of days when I'm done. I'm using street prices for cards, as I strongly encourage people to shop around for competitive prices and not use one big vendor like SCG and wildy overpay. Some numbers I've calculated so far (examples using recent SCG and large global tournament T8'ing decks):
ANT (UB no Grim Tutor) - 851.05 (698.30 MTGO)
ANT (UB with Grim Tutor) - 1169.05 (705.55 MTGO)
Cephalid Breakfast - 1079.75 (755.54 MTGO)
CounterTop Thopters (Guibault) - 1050.73 (946.08 MTGO)
CounterTop UWRG (Wienburg) - 1519.83 (1128.04 MTGO)
Dredge (LED-less) - 156.85 (146.17 MTGO)
Goblins (Mono R) - 626.32 (269.66 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Goblins (RB) - 742.80 (287.61 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Merfolk (Mono U Bertoncini) - 754.63 (777.46 MTGO)
Naya Zoo - 822.53 (425.39 MTGO)
Reanimator (LDV) - 1077.04 (972.66 MTGO)
Team America (Confidant) - 1928.00 (1381.35 MTGO)
Team America (Tombstalker) - 1652.26 (1185.86 MTGO)
TES - 679.25 (665.88 MTGO)

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It's impossible to know what you mean by "street price", or verify that. It is however very difficult for someone just getting into the game to find a deck for significantly less than what they'd have to pay SCG for the same. Most other retailers have, at best, pastiches of the cards you need- even SCG has trouble hanging onto duals and other staples, really- which will require multiple shipping and may not even be of the cheapest editions. SCG moderately played duals are going to usually be cheaper than the lowest cost duals you can pick up elsewhere.

If you mean for people to go on six month scavenger hunts making contacts and finding out where to put together a deck on the cheap, that's an even greater hidden cost. For a new player to try to assemble a deck entirely via trade is daunting enough, but add onto that that if they don't know the prices well they're liable to lose rather than save money on the deal.

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Decks are really not that expensive when compared to the costs of playing Standard

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...no? I guess if you mean over time, but the cost of entry is far lower in Standard, even in this insanely retarded 4-of-Jace-in-everything metagame.

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and Legacy deck costs aren't really close to an average of $1500 for the most commonly played decks.

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I just showed that they are. You countered with a list of numbers that as far as I can tell you made up from thin air. Unless you want to share your methodology this is not an even exchange.

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Sure Blue decks are more expensive in Legacy, just like they have been in nearly every constructed Magic format. That's nothing new.

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What? There's nothing magical about blue cards that makes them cost more. The most expensive cards in Standard/Extended are the ones that are played at any given moment.

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If you're looking for equality for the masses for everyone, you should be looking at a different game. Magic has always been a collectible card game, and one where the cost to play constructed formats is high. Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage will never be the "everyman's" format. If you are looking for a cheap format to play EDH and draft fit the bill, and that's why so many players gravitate towards those formats.

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Saying that something is so isn't the same as saying that it should be so. Of course Legacy isn't an everyman's format; hence the thread title. The question is why shouldn't it be more accessible.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

A list with FoW, 9 Blue duals, 10 fetches and 2 wallet sculptor is 1.8k and you try to tell us the average cost of a legacy Deck is 1.5k?

Then the painter and high tide List ... It isn't the deck that's expensive, it's the playset of candelabras and ImperialR.! I mean you can replace candelabra with cloud of fairies or mind over matter without making the deck much worse but paying 1.1k more for a little better effect should not be the base of discussion.

Maybe I throw a Mono Black List with sinkholes, juzams, Xiahou Duns and chains of Mephistopheles together (maybe win a 12-people-tourney before discussion, for legitim. lol) to discuss average legacy deck prices next time. Feel free to join me with a mono white Control list containing sets of moat, tabernacle, baneslayer and karakas'

(old, formaly cheap but now overhyped and ridiculous expensive cards are bad examples for price discussion. We are Not longer talking about important staples like Force of will but shit; this is wrong)

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Are you pretending to be dense as part of a cunning stratagem, or do you really think that using the most recent SCG Open winners as a frame of reference is comparable to you making up decklists out of thin air?

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Originally Posted by TUMBLES

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

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Mono-Red Goblins is at about $750 to make now on average.

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Originally Posted by TheDarkshineKnight

Mono-Red Goblins is at about $750 to make now on average.

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Which is still 2 times less than $1500 average figure being thrown around.

Anyway, nobody is commenting on recent turns of events? Or are people just slow at catching up?

TnT is no longer buying Wastelands, they also lowered their buy prices for foil versions and for FoW. SCG lowered their Wasteland buy price to $30, and FoW to $50. Both shops have both cards in quite nice quantities in stock.

There are people on motl (some I presume being sourcers) that tried to sell their extra "since the price is so high". No bites, so seems that correction arrived.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It's impossible to know what you mean by "street price", or verify that. It is however very difficult for someone just getting into the game to find a deck for significantly less than what they'd have to pay SCG for the same. Most other retailers have, at best, pastiches of the cards you need- even SCG has trouble hanging onto duals and other staples, really- which will require multiple shipping and may not even be of the cheapest editions. SCG moderately played duals are going to usually be cheaper than the lowest cost duals you can pick up elsewhere.

If you mean for people to go on six month scavenger hunts making contacts and finding out where to put together a deck on the cheap, that's an even greater hidden cost. For a new player to try to assemble a deck entirely via trade is daunting enough, but add onto that that if they don't know the prices well they're liable to lose rather than save money on the deal.



...no? I guess if you mean over time, but the cost of entry is far lower in Standard, even in this insanely retarded 4-of-Jace-in-everything metagame.



I just showed that they are. You countered with a list of numbers that as far as I can tell you made up from thin air. Unless you want to share your methodology this is not an even exchange.



What? There's nothing magical about blue cards that makes them cost more. The most expensive cards in Standard/Extended are the ones that are played at any given moment.



Saying that something is so isn't the same as saying that it should be so. Of course Legacy isn't an everyman's format; hence the thread title. The question is why shouldn't it be more accessible.




Are you pretending to be dense as part of a cunning stratagem, or do you really think that using the most recent SCG Open winners as a frame of reference is comparable to you making up decklists out of thin air?

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I want you to remind that your main topic was making the formats staples more accessible.

Promoting the price of a 4c countertop with 9 duals and 10 fetches as "slightly" above the average Legacy entrance cost is "thin Air". Moreover you take SCG's prices as the Base for your statements. Rukcus listed prices without big traders between players; only Hand-to-Hand trading which is a normal thing in CCG's. You mentioned something that I reduce to "Time is Money"; an aspect that good trading cost time, which is fine but nothing we can calculate in $ easily. SCG's a bad example, of you follow their price development over the last weeks especially looking at candelabra.

That brings me to the point with the $Black parody. Talking about High Tide, a deck WITHOUT Legacy staple Cards (except FoW) you fight for, with 80% of it's cost covered by a set of collector-cards is not a good example for Legacy entry cost. If I were younger and interested in Legacy and I would read and think: "1.8k, Force of will, no duals other staples?! Wtf?! Fuck that format!" Recruiters the same problem here.

These are imo examples that undermine your intention and head this thread in the Complete wrong direction.

Thank God.

Also, SCG who was buying SDT at $10 a pop are now stocked with 50++ tops at $14.00. It's going to take awhile to unload those unless they prompt EDH writers/salesmen to boost selling Tops ravenously.

Here's hoping the Wasteland/FoW prices will drop a little. There's only that much the format can sustain at that price point. What I feel is bulk of the price is driven by demands WITHIN the Legacy community or people who are already in or getting into the format, it is not driven by Standard players trying to buy into the format in fear on the future of legacy card prices. No evidence to suggest this, but I think it maybe a logical explanation. Because if it were non-legacy people buying in afraid of rising card prices, there's not going to be much force that will stop prices from yet increasing (gradually).

We've all been puppets played by the secondary market enjoying their temporal profits. I'm interested to see how this works out in the next month (Top is a good example on SCG's stocked list).

Clarification: Average tier decks in Legacy costs around $800-$1k. $1.5k number on this thread is probably typed out to prove the point on rising card prices, and most AVERAGE decks do not cost $1.5k. Only the 3-4 colored decks would cost this much. Legacy is still MUCH more affordable than Vintage, the way Standard is MUCH more affordable than Legacy (even more so now). The only plus that Legacy has over Standard with the current price increases is: Legacy still has the power to retain card value if you ever intend to sell out in the future. You don't have much investment power in Standard.

Amusingly, though, when I started playing Eternal back in ye olde T1.5 days, T1.5 WAS cheaper than Standard. Hell, that's why I got into Eternal in the first place. I wanted to play competitively and I was a kid with no money at the time. Goblin Sligh was a bit cheaper to build than Ravager Affinity.

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Originally Posted by nwong

It's the same as repeating the "you can compete with X budget deck and it costs only Y" argument. Sure, but when was the last time it came Top 8 in a major tournament?

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No matter which budget deck you're talking about, I think your answer is probably "19 days ago, max" :)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...27&event_ID=20

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I want you to remind that your main topic was making the formats staples more accessible.

Promoting the price of a 4c countertop with 9 duals and 10 fetches as "slightly" above the average Legacy entrance cost is "thin Air". Moreover you take SCG's prices as the Base for your statements. Rukcus listed prices without big traders between players; only Hand-to-Hand trading which is a normal thing in CCG's. You mentioned something that I reduce to "Time is Money"; an aspect that good trading cost time, which is fine but nothing we can calculate in $ easily. SCG's a bad example, of you follow their price development over the last weeks especially looking at candelabra.

That brings me to the point with the $Black parody. Talking about High Tide, a deck WITHOUT Legacy staple Cards (except FoW) you fight for, with 80% of it's cost covered by a set of collector-cards is not a good example for Legacy entry cost. If I were younger and interested in Legacy and I would read and think: "1.8k, Force of will, no duals other staples?! Wtf?! Fuck that format!" Recruiters the same problem here.

These are imo examples that undermine your intention and head this thread in the Complete wrong direction.

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Your complaint is illegitimate, because whether or not you think it's "fair" to complain about those cards, those are the most recent winning lists. It's absolutely irrelevant to bring up budget decks that can't win.

And offering speculative "street" prices for cards is neither verifiable nor helpful, especially to new players who are more likely to be taken for a ride than anything.

Ideally going from cold start to a Tier 1/1.5 deck should be $100. To reach that would require new cards to be printed that can compete with the original power level before the price spike.

Really, what justifies an entry cost to a CCG in excess of $100?

In Seattle, the buy prices listed by the major vendors are generally used among players, back pack dealers/traders, and small shops to define the cash value of cards, while the large vendor sell prices often dtermine trade value. Outside of an established community with a large suply of Legacy cards players must resort to buying from large vendors or ebay where the price is subtantially higher.

IBA, a beat up Wasteland for $50? It should take about 2 minutes to easily beat that price on eBay. Checking now I see a a bunch of listings for NM Wastes ending in the 6 hours, all for below the SCG price for a beat up copy. Is there anyone who actually buys the majority of their Legacy cards from SCG? I certainly hope not, and think that using their prices is generally a terrible way to come up with the format average.

I only buy cards from SCG if they're below Ebay, i.e. no cards.

The only exceptions are: casual foils if they're around Ebay prices (Ebay doesn't have these usually since they're obscure), EDH foils (once again, comparing against Ebay), some legacy foils that they underpriced below ebay, e.g.

I picked up:
2 Elspeth foil $27.99
2 SoFI DCI foil $69.99
2 Crucible 5D foils $37.99
3 Standstill foils $31.99
3 Spell Snare foils $16.99

Granted that some of them are still $1-$2 higher than Ebay, I don't have to wait for auctions and snag everything in one payment and one shipping. Other than that, the only items I ever bought from SCG are stuff for my foil UG Thallid deck, foil GAZ (Gro-A-Zombie), Bruizzar's Coretapper Myr shenanigan deck with Magistrate's scepters :D

I cannot see myself ever buying cards without comparing Ebay as a benchmark. SCG has most things, and is convenient, but they're not the market yet. They have an influence on the market, but if there's an entity that should be the market, it's Ebay.

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Originally Posted by keys

SCG doesn't dictate prices.

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I disagree with that. If it wasn't for their buylist, Wastelands would still be around 20 dollars. They are a heavy influence on the market.

That being said, they sell their cards at way more than they are worth, and using tools like eBay and MOTL, you can easily get them for less (but still not cheap).

IBA may be a little off in his estimation, but at least he is not resorting to character assassination and tales of how rich he is. Vaxe, do yourself a favor and refrain from all the unnecessary comments and stick to the crux of the issue, IBA's inflation of deck prices. Now while the prices on Star City and Channel fireball might be slightly inflated, I know a lot of the local shops (RIW, Pandemonium, Time Travelers) price their cards to these sites. And about the metagame, price is an influence into what is dominating the metagame. The optimal version of high tide, ANT, and TES all cost significantly more than these vial decks that you describe. If people are trying to get into the format, they will gravitate to the cheaper decks... all of which happen to smash counterbalance. So with counterbalance continually being kept down by the only reasonably priced deck, Mr. Moneybags combo is left with free reign of the metagame. Is that the format that you want?

Locked for the moment. - Bardo

Update - Open again.

Verbal warnings to IBA, Vaxe, and Keys for either flaming or flame-baiting.

I've deleted all posts that involve those things above, even if they contained useful and well-reasoned content (cope).

Full warnings will be issued and this thread will be permanently closed if I or another mod has to come into this thread and fiddle with the admin panel.

I shouldn't have to say this, but hell, here goes:

* Research and debate facts

* Ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated

Please review our Intellectual Honesty Guidelines before continuing to post in this thread

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Rules-for-MTS

Thanks.

I actually agree with IBA here. Yes SCG is not the market. But it is one enormous chunk of it. If you discount it, you are ignoring a segment of the market entirely, that is called bad business strategy and is extremely short sighted. The time it takes to get cards form Ebay is sometimes more costly than the extra money SCG charges for the same cards. Also I have never, and I mean never, had a problem ordering from them. I have with Ebay, I have hard cards come late, I have had them not show up at all. The price you pay at SCG is more than just purely the value of the card, sometimes its a little bit more to pay for the security of that order. All in all, SCG and Ebay, as well as places like T&T, should ALL be considered when doing any kind of valuation.

Right now the market is trending up, and it is something a lot of us expect, ie "Legacy staples never go down in value" ( a common argument to buy into legacy). This argument actually means we expect prices to go up, or at least hold value. The problem is that the prices have spiked far further than they should and in the long run, with all prices staying the same or increasing further, the game will die. No the sky is not falling, but given a long enough time line, I give it about 3-4 years, the format will fall if things stay as they are.

The solution is simple, functional reprints that are not identical, like taking the M10/M11 duals and simply adding the basic land types to them. 95% of the time, those would be just as good as the original duals, Standard gets more fun, Extended gets super solid manabases, and Legacy becomes a sustainable format.

The most likely scenario from the original 4, which by the way those are the 4 most REAL options available whether you like that fact or not, is a combination of #2 and #4. #2 would be the simplest because we already have Ravnica duals and they do work just fine, providing nothing better is available. #4 is likely because IT IS WHAT THEY DID WHEN THEY MADE LEGACY. 1.5 used to be based solely off of the 1.0 banned/restricted list and we had decks like Dragon, MUD, ATS, Fish, and Threshold decks. They hacked away at the format, unbanning lots of goodies like LED, Crop Rotation, etc, meanwhile banning cards like Mishra's Workshop, Library of Alexandria, Illusionary Mask, Bazaar of Baghdad, and all the usual offenders, all because the costs and availability. To quote Aaron Forsythe ...

" Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask all fit into this category. Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players."

#4, the option of just hacking away the especially rare and expensive cards, in this case things like Duals and Candelabra, is a very possible scenario, I know this because they did it 7 years ago. Yes that option sucks, yes Shock duals are not as good, but if they are the best you have, why not. Most people did not like the changes between 1.5 and Legacy at first either, we just have to come to our senses and realize either some staples we value high are going to be banned, or they are just going to make a new format, in the long term. This is not going to happen now, but it will happen eventually. obviously Wizards IS concerned with barriers of entry, Aaron Forsythe mentions those words in that quote, what makes you think that dual lands aren't already being looked at? Will it suck, yes, will the format change, yes, will it be worse, that is unknown. Most people though Legacy was going to be terrible, it wasn't, it is by far my favorite format now.

Also for reference:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/daily/af30

And lastly, stop flaming each other and stick to the topic, no one cares what degree you claim to have, how much money you spend on whatever, no one cares and is just a waste of time and energy.

How much do people realistically think they can save on ebay? The buy it now prices on Wastelands, for an example that's extremely relevant, are about $50+; the lowest I can find in bidding that hasn't ended yet is $41 for a singleton. That's going to also pad the price because you have to pay shipping each time.

But say that you can save 10% on ebay, and you don't have a problem with getting your cards. The average deck price of the past seven SCG open winners is still down to only $1,250 or so, well within the $1,200-1,500 range I identified in the first post. If the average deck isn't $1,500, it certainly will be soon at recent trends.

It's certainly possible that this thread originally had a point, but I've long since forgotten what it was. So. Even if we can agree on some number that the "average" competitive deck would cost currently (say, $1000.00, just for the sake of argument), what does this mean? Other than me looking at that number and thinking that's about what I make in a month, I'm curious as to why we're arguing about this at all. Even if we could agree on some sort of normative statement (a competitive deck's cost should be some function of the minimum wage, or whatever) about Legacy, what can we actually do about it?

It's not like people haven't suggested nearly everything that's been suggested here before. Throwing functional reprints of dual lands into the base sets would be simple, and would guarantee that the difference between "newbies" to the format and the people who have the cash or collections to currently compete wouldn't be so drastic, but we don't have a very effective way of communicating that to WotC. This all seems kind of masturbatory, to me.