[Deck] Painter-Stone

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Originally Posted by Di

First off, welcome to The Source.

- You're facing heavy removal through either StP, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc.
- Dealing with hosers like Energy Flux, Null Rod, and to a lesser extent Needle/Revoker.
- Dealing with anti-mill effects like Emrakul, 2x Progenitus, or Gaea's Blessing.
- You're trying to sidestep the opponent's hate cards in anticipation they'll bring in something that messes with your combo (which is going to be among the above).

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Di i am surprised you didn't run any search aside from playing transmute artifact. i played against you with berserk infect a few weeks ago in grapevine, but i forgot to put into my board deeds and 1 gaea's blessing.

i know your deck has a lot of answers for different problems, but i don't think it is reasonable that a deck can solve every situation. then again when i played you i couldn't draw any of my removal (ie. nature's claim, maelstrom pulse, or beast within to save my life.

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Originally Posted by Top Deck

Di i am surprised you didn't run any search aside from playing transmute artifact. i played against you with berserk infect a few weeks ago in grapevine, but i forgot to put into my board deeds and 1 gaea's blessing.

i know your deck has a lot of answers for different problems, but i don't think it is reasonable that a deck can solve every situation. then again when i played you i couldn't draw any of my removal (ie. nature's claim, maelstrom pulse, or beast within to save my life.

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I also ran 2 Intuitions in the deck that day as well, I just didn't ever see them.

Naturally it isn't possible for a deck to solve every situation. However, there are a certain few that come up more often than others and have higher relevance in the metagame, so that's what I focused on. Given it's more likely you'll run into something I listed than some random issue, it's worth trying to make a game plan around that than something you might see every once in a great while.

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Originally Posted by Di

First off, welcome to The Source.

There are a ton of additional combos and win conditions to choose from, and some of them are necessary depending on what you're looking for, but it also greatly depends on why you're trying a secondary win condition in the first place. That's pretty much narrowed down to either:

- You're facing heavy removal through either StP, Ancient Grudge, Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, etc.
- Dealing with hosers like Energy Flux, Null Rod, and to a lesser extent Needle/Revoker.
- Dealing with anti-mill effects like Emrakul, 2x Progenitus, or Gaea's Blessing.
- You're trying to sidestep the opponent's hate cards in anticipation they'll bring in something that messes with your combo (which is going to be among the above).

Now, for all four of these issues, there is very little reason to run additional win conditions when you have answers that should be in your sideboard already.

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Di, thank you for your answer. Your reasoning and the deep understanding of the Painter's deck strategy is superior. I will definitely use these thoughts in future. But I still want to explain my point of view.
As you can see, I'm putting 0 to 2 Jaces in the SB. That means that depending on my Meta I will play either 2 or 0 Jaces. I had information that on the following tournament there would be minimum 2 decks playing multiple Emrakuls and hydras. 20 to 30 players and minimum 2 extreme matchups which is around 10%. In this situation I felt that I needed a backup plan. And as far as I play more classic version without Grim Monoliths I think Jaces would fit best as a backup.
But what you are saying is also true and I will not run any Jaces if the concentration of "extreme" matchups is below 10%. Even if I know there will be lots of Null Rods or white leylines in SBs or Deeds it is easier to just run more blasts or pithing needles.

If you're only adding Jace to combat Emrakul, you would be better off with Duplicant. He'll kill off Emrakul permanently (giving you a 15/15 in the process) and can be used for Welder tricks on most other creatures your opponent may play.

After the good results of this deck in the SCG-Open i had to try it..

i LOVE it... fast, fun and not easily hated away with Sb...

one big question i still have is my own Sb...one list form the SCG-Open used SnT and Emrakul to switch Win-Con. i am not really convinced with this idea.. and i dont own 4 SnT ...hence i am playing a "normal" Sb:

my deck-list:

Creatures [8]
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

Instants [18]
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Mental Misstep

Artifacts [13]
3 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 LED
1 Ensnering Bridge

Lands [21]
1 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Polluted Delta
3 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island


MY SB:
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
4 REB/Pyroblast
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Ensering Bridge


Decks present at my store (no praticular order) -- my SB slots for this MU:
1x NOBant -- Spellskite, Blood Moon, Bridge ... maybe a bit too much (but it is the deck of a good friend, and i wanna win this MU)
2X Affinity -- Bridge and REB
3x Dreadge -- Crypts
3x Merfolk -- Bridge and REB
2x Gobos -- Spellskite and Bridge
1X Burn -- Spellskite
1x Painterstone -- ?!? maybe REB and Crypts
1x MUC -- REB
1x UW-Landstill -- REB
1x Combo Elfes -- Maybe Bridge, favorable MU anyway
1x Doomsday -- REB and Blood Moon
1x Monoblack Aggro -- Bridge
1x Rock -- Spellskite and Blood Moon
1x Temop-Feries -- REB and BLood Moon

i might have forgotten some of the present decks...all inputs concerning my List/SB and any other MUs are very wellcome..

If someone could let me know what to take out /in for some of the MUs would ne nice.. cause i usually think i know what to bring in from the SB, but i have a hard time to see which is the weakest Card in the MU..

i hope i could make clear what i was asking for, excuse my english..:-)

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Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

one big question i still have is my own Sb...one list form the SCG-Open used SnT and Emrakul to switch Win-Con. i am not really convinced with this idea.. and i dont own 4 SnT ...hence i am playing a "normal"

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Most have gone away from the SnT/Emrakul sideboard as well, so you're not missing out on anything as it was a very clunky idea anyways.

Can you help me how to win against "hive mind"?
is it impossible?

Game 1 is pretty much impossible unless you have graveyard hate maindeck. Even then, since you're on a 3 card combo you give hive mind plenty of time to set up and kill you as you apply next to no pressure on them. I guess your only hope really would be that they drew all 3 of their emrakuls and you painter/grind them or you beat them down with welder/painter and they have a really bad hand and you counter all their key spells.

Games 2 and 3 depend on your sideboard(blast #s, gy hate #s etc). If you're playing a white splash version of painters, ethersworn cannonist is really good as they can't hivemind/pact on the same turn and you have time to blast their hive mind. Also name black with painter so their slaughter pacts become dead.

Played against a friend who was playing hive mind and I went 1-9 only game I won was b/c he couldn't find a blue source the whole game. Lion's Eyes + welders I found also buy you a lot of time as you can generate a lot of mana to pay for pacts and they can't really go off unless they have multiple pacts.

After looking around for a decent deck with FoW in it to splash into paper legacy, I chose this one. I have just finished up building the deck to the point where I’m ready to take into a local tournament, and I have been goldfishing hundreds of games. I have a few points that I was hoping some of the seasoned painted stone veterans can help me with. One is Mulligan strategy and the other is Intuition piles.

First off I thought I would post what my list is looking like atm. Mind you there are a few cards missing due to the fact that I just don’t own them yet, as this list contains pretty much 100% of the paper magic I own at the moment. For instance, I’m still looking for a 3rd volcanic, and maybe one more Ancient Tomb.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Trinket mage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Intuition
4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Tormod’s Crypt


1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace


3 Spellskite
2 Shattering Spree
3 Meekstone
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

So to my first point, I am looking to get some understanding of what hands I should aggressively mulligan into, or what key cards I should not reshuffle etc.

I was looking to try something here if I may. I thought I would draw up a few dummy hands, list them. Note whether I would mulligan, and then perhaps I could get some comments on the process. Maybe some insight on how the strategy would change given being on the play or draw.

I am assuming that each hand is in game one by the way, and I have no knowledge of what my opponent is running aside from general metagame theory.

Hand #1
2 Painters servant
1 Grindstone
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Scalding tarn
1 Mox Opal
1 Trinket Mage

I would keep this hand, even though I have no permission to help protect the combo pieces, there is at least enough mana and enough redundancy to reliably land both pieces.

Hand #2

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Goblin Welder
1 Painters Servant
1 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Great Furnace
1 Mox Opal

Another Hand I would keep. 1 combo piece, a welder, something to dig with, and the mana to pull it off relatively quickly. I think that a fetch would have made the hand alot better though.

Hand #3

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Grindstone
1 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mental Misstep

This hand I would be tempted to ditch, as it looks mana flooded, and doesn’t seem too optimal. But I’m thinking that with a misstep I have a good chance of sticking the grindstone t1, and if I draw into a servant I could go off on t2.... potentially. I would probably keep this hand on game one of a match, on the draw for sure.

Hand #4

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Mox Opal
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Grindstone
1 Brainstorm

Tough hand I think with only one land, but with 2 grindstone, and the opal I could have 2 mana sources active on t2. I think that I would probably risk this hand, mainly since I think that the permission is strong, and it has combo pieces. I would ditch this without the grindstones.



Ok so there you go, please feel free to open up the discussion in regards to the best possible plays here, as well as any other mulliganing (made up word methinks) strats that you find pertinent.


My second point of this post involves the strategy behind intuition piles. I will start off by admitting that I have no experience with Intuition at all, as this will be the first time ill be sleeving them up in paper or digital. I do however have some experience with Gifts, which I find to be one of the most tricky cards to play with ever printed.

So to my understanding having a welder online seems to be the main factor that will force your Intuition pile into something other than 3x of a card? As in, without a welder on the table, I should be grabbing 3 combo pieces etc. Are there situations where I might want to include a copy of both combo pieces in my pile without a welder online yet, or perhaps non combo pieces?

With a welder in play, I’m guessing things change and the piles get more difficult per se. With a weldable target in play, I’m assuming that the right call would be to grab grindstone, servant (if neither is in my hand or battlefield) and LED, or crypt if needed etc. I guess I’m looking for some nuanced approaches to using this card to its full potential as I am admittedly, a newb when it comes to actually casting it.

I look to you, oh wise sages of The Source to school me please.

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by sloppyjoe

hands

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I'd keep them all, but auto-ship hand #3.

Generally when playing a 2 card combo deck, I keep hands that have both components, a component + some kind of deck manipulation/tutor or a hand with cantrip + tutor. I will not keep any hand that doesn't have at least 2 live cards (component, tutor and cantrips/ top are live cards) assuming its the first mulligan. When you are faced with going down to 5 I keep hands quite liberally in that case.

Agree with the above poster, keep all, ship hand 3.

I probably keep hand #3 vs an unknown deck on the draw but I generally have a tendency to not mull aggressively. I'd be very happy to draw servant/brainstorm/intuition/top/mage to get top/welder to work with grindstone. 2 or 3 draw steps to get to one of 20 cards and having misstep to not lose to a random thoughtseize/slowing down the opponent is ok in my book if you're typically someone who leans away from aggressive mulligans.

I am having huge problems with a null rod (the Leyline of sanctity) on the board...my only solution (ecxept for FOW) is a REB/Pyroblast and a painter... but with useless Tops it is hard to search for these two cards quick enoughe...

What is your solution to this?

could Chaos Warp from the Commander-Decks be a solution? In the SB or even MB? by the way, why is this card so f***** expensive? where does it get used?

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Originally Posted by Lim-Dul

I am having huge problems with a null rod (the Leyline of sanctity) on the board...my only solution (ecxept for FOW) is a REB/Pyroblast and a painter... but with useless Tops it is hard to search for these two cards quick enoughe...

What is your solution to this?

could Chaos Warp from the Commander-Decks be a solution? In the SB or even MB? by the way, why is this card so f***** expensive? where does it get used?

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I've started to play Repeal in the sideboard. It's a catch all for lots of problem cards. My biggest problem is a guy in the local store playing Dragon Stompy and this deck really hates a turn 1 Chalice set on 1. Repeal gives the flexablilty of a variable CC, so it's a great way to fight Chalice.

Only Null Rod really sucks, shuting down your mana.

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Originally Posted by Atwa

My biggest problem is a guy in the local store playing Dragon Stompy and this deck really hates a turn 1 Chalice set on 1. Repeal gives the flexablilty of a variable CC, so it's a great way to fight Chalice.

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Um...if you target Chalice (CMC=0 when it is a permanent) with Repeal (X=0, otherwise you miss targetting the Chalice), doesn't that get countered by Chalice set @ 1 because Repeal's CMC is then 1?

I would rather go for Echoing Truth. Or with the SnT SB, you could SnT in the Grindstone FTW against Chalice @ 1.

Against Null Rod: Shattering Spree or similar, any bounce effect, Spell Pierce or similar.

Chaos Warp is okay, but the fact that it could potentially give the opponent a Null Rod again or another bad permanent makes me wary. There are few permanents that we really care about, and most of them can be dealt with easier than with Chaos Warp.

The best answer for Null Rod (and Chalice of the Void) is Ancient Grudge. It's unlikely Chalice will ever be set at two so it won't get countered often, it'll hit Null Rod fine, and there's also a chance you can flash it back with Mox Opal. Grudge is also nuts against the mirror, Affinity, and Stoneforge decks. I suppose you could run Shattering Spree instead, but given it's a sorcery I find it to be much worse, and Grudge is the best instant available.

Wurmcoil Engine is also a terrific way to avoid Null Rod and similar hate like Leyline of Sanctity, but it's really only a viable option for Transmute Artifact lists.


These sideboard options have been discussed a bit a few pages back. I wrote a long-winded post on sideboarding that covers some of this, and I know a handful of others have mentioned stuff on this as well.

Karhumies is right; Repeal cannot be used to target a Chalice of the Void set @ 1.

"Repeal
Instant, XU (1)
Return target nonland permanent with converted mana cost X to its owner's hand.
Draw a card"

X must be zero to target the Chalice, hence Repeal's CMC=1, hence it is countered.

On Chalice of the Void and Shattering Spree:

There are multiple artifacts on the field (including Chalice at one), if I cast Shattering Spree (which will get countered by Chalice), would the replicated copy resolve?

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

On Chalice of the Void and Shattering Spree:

There are multiple artifacts on the field (including Chalice at one), if I cast Shattering Spree (which will get countered by Chalice), would the replicated copy resolve?

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Yes. The copy isn't cast. It's just placed on the stack.

Looks like mono red painter T16 this weekends SGC event.