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Leyline is a scoop, but side cases like Propaganda or Glacial Chasm can be dealt with by diversifying your Dread Return targets in the SB with Terrastadon and co. Basically, any anti-Dredge card that doesn't stop us from Dredging is defeated by Dread Return -> ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
[QUOTE=berry;578486]
@XSivPSI:
Your next upkeep will just be the turn you skip into, won't work.
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But the opponent takes another turn after I choose to skip mine and then would lose during his upkeep. So it could potentially buy you some time until they can get rid of it.
Either way it was a joke but seems like it should work.
You do realize that the point of a transformational sideboard is to, like.. transform?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Also how does the Hexmage plan force you to nuke your own Bridges?
As to removal: I don't think they're likely to keep it in, as Swords/Path are the only good removal spells against us and even those generally come out for cards that do anything proactive. Supposing they did keep it, though, between Gitaxian Probe, Urza's Bauble, and Cabal Therapy it's not hard to figure out if they have a removal spell. Even if it were, Bolt is dead against the combo ( with Hexmage/Depths properly played) as is Wasteland (okay, it buys time), as is Wrath of God, which if they cast we can make a 20/20 indestructible in response and just kill them across the now-empty board.
Supposing, however, that this were an issue, and removal were quite good against us... all of the non-exile removal can be dealt with simply by using Darkblast or Cabal Therapy to sacrifice Golgari Thug and recur Hexmage. This doesn't work if they're sitting behind a Leyline of the Void, but if they are we should just win for not being a graveyard deck (i.e. kill them with beaters and/or a 20/20).
I guess my combo player mentality gets the best of me. I am more than fine losing to the lone Yixlid Jailer and Leyline of the Void. My goal is to maximixe the effectiveness of the deck G1 and ready a SB for g2. Thats why I play LED and DA in the main. Because against any BS controls deck .... u still just win, then u board out the shit g2. building a board to handle the black leyline is shit IMOP.
I agree w Kevin, since this deck is unexpected. Dredge is a combo deck but ... it has the capability to beatdown the opponent .... most dont. Playing a deck like this u should accept the auto-loss and play accordingly. Simply because it wi;; enable u 2 win a lot of other mathups like Zoo w Crypt and Teeg. If u want 2 play Dredge, that has answers ro hate .... u run Pimps and Tribe, otherwise u play the deck accordingly. No joke, u can build a nasty SB to hate shit out .... but I am more than content w Losing to Leyline since .... it is terrible and anyone who wants to mull into their Gy hate deserves a win. Aggro Loam will stomp them out still, Leyline of the Void will happen, but playing a deck like this ... u should simply accept the losses and move on.
This, also I'm 99% certain that Serum Powder is better than either Bauble or Gigapede in the MD, increasing the statistical chance of opening a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith with an uncounterable, free mulligan is fucking ridiculous and I feel idiotic for not playing with the card for this long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
And what if your hand looks like Narcomoeba, Narcomoeba, Phanta, Bridge, Bridge, Serum Powder, Ichorid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Vintage Lists can still exile that and win by turn 2, if they only hit the Bazaar in their next seven. This Legacy deck can not. Aside from that, Powder is a dead card in your graveyard and in keepable hands as well.
That being said, I'm a bit skeptical towards Serum Powder. It works for a deck that practically is guaranteed to have an undisruptable auto win once it finds one out of 4 cards in its opener, but aside from that, I doubt that works.
@People talking down on sideboarding anti-Leyline:
What's up with this? We get it, you fold to leyline, and you maximize your board to get the most out of the games where there is no leyline (I'm curious as to how your board looks like, though). Saying someone should NOT try to find away around this is like saying you should not build decks, you should just play deck X that wins.
Stop trying to tell other people how they should play the deck and start talking about how your deck plays out, and how you built it. Etc.
Also, it seems shitloads of time has been spent here discussing the maindeck. In the end, there's the bauble-list, and there's the Rausch-list. Rausch's list has obviously put up the most results, but I can see the bauble-list being strong too (although it most certainly seems to play out a whole different way).
But instead of just going "this is awesome" and "that is not awesome", try showing us games and results instead?
In my humble opinion we have two fully working (it seems) MB's (although it's obviously free to tech away, but you get my point) and a sideboard that is in utter chaos. Obviously the goal here should be to find a solid SB for both the Bauble and the Bauble-less lists? I'm not talking anti-leyline here, just regular good ass SB's (although I think it's still great that people keep focusing on trying out an anti-leyline board).
@AJFireCracker:
You're right, obviously the Wraths are useless (although a good UW pilot will still bring these in against you), but the Paths are not and they will be brought in, and the StP's will be left in. Also, you say that if they get the leyline you still win because you're not a graveyard deck. The problem is a deck like UW can keep a hand of: fetch, leyline, brainstorm, brainstorm and still win fairly easily over a deck that is Junk Depths minus the Junk.
I couldn't care less, Exiling business in Dredge with Serum Powder is the equivalent of discarding cards in aggro-control vs Mill Stone, you're going to have just as many hands where you're happy to Exile 6 bad cards. The opportunity cost of holding a dead card in Dredge is lower than in any other deck conceivable, and Dredging a Serum Powder is no different than Dredging a Bauble.
It's just incrementally better than every other card I've run in that slot, and I've tested pretty thoroughly.
I couldn't care less, Exiling business in Dredge with Serum Powder is the equivalent of discarding cards in aggro-control vs Mill Stone, you're going to have just as many hands where you're happy to Exile 6 bad cards. The opportunity cost of holding a dead card in Dredge is lower than in any other deck conceivable, and Dredging a Serum Powder is no different than Dredging a Bauble.
It's just incrementally better than every other card I've run in that slot, and I've tested pretty thoroughly.
I don't find Serum Powder necessary... in this deck. I get a dredger in the opener so often that I'd rarely want to risk having to mulligan just for a slightly faster kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
If you keep any opener with any dredger that also has a Serum Powder, why are you running it?
As to the sideboard: I think it works. It's especially effective against UW Control, in my testing, although it tends to be very effective against basically any deck that slows itself down to bring in hate.
Do the UW decks you test against play leyline? If so, they're doing it wrong.
I know what a transformational sideboard is, and what I'm trying to explain is that - like most others agree - you're diluting your sixty with a combo that is more proactive than a defensive sideboard trying to offset the threat of Leyline and in turn seriously impairing your previously non-existent mulligan strategy. The deck cannot afford to mulligan into finding pieces of what really amounts to a situational, very conditional combo that requires drawing into multiple lands, Hexmage, and Depths. This gives an opponent the ability to interact with you more, in addition to opening yourself up to Waste-hate. Is it really worth the effort while your opponent sits there accumulating answers?Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfirecracker
I'm not saying the combo is bad - but it is, in fact, bad in Manaless Ichorid.
My point is it requires a great deal more setup than the package I was proposing. If your opponent is in fact on Leyline, then an unanswered one means you lose. There really isn't more to it than that. However, if you decide you want to be able to stick to the Dredge mechanic to win the game, then packing some relegated removal in the board to deal with the threat of Leyline seems *much* easier and cheaper to acquire (as each of the sideboarded cards can interact with each other at an accelerated rate (a zero to one mana maximum) with only a single land required (with more redundancy at six to eight slots dedicated to the same utility). An opponent is also more than likely going to take out counter-magic versus you in the second and third games, but they will not digress from their removal. This opens the door for any deck sporting Leyline and an aggressive mulligan strategy to give in to enchantment removal effects.
I just fail to see how this plan seems like a 'worse' idea than trying to assemble a combo consisting of a setup of three to four cards and arguably being the most disruptable in the entire format.
Because opening with Shamling Shell is no where near as good as opening with Golgari Grave Troll and/or Phatasmagorian, what I realized was you actually can't keep a hand with only Shambling Shell and expect to race Merfolk in testing so Serum Powder increases the virtual number of Dredgers and their effective Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfirecracker
Obviously you don't have to take my word for it, but Serm Powder adds a lot of consistency for increasing the odds of drawing into your strongest cards uncounterablly and I think it adds a manaless, undisruptable effect that deserves a lot of consideration.
Regardless, I'm not convinced the "cantrip" list is better than the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis lists after a lot of playtesting, mainly because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond and DDDing into Deep Analysis and having the ability to aggressively mulligan is winning too many games on turn 3. As Manaless Dredge stands, it can't beat a lot of tier 2 decks like Elves, Affinity and Monolith/Orb combo consistently at the rate it gold fishes.
What happend to the idear of playing Unmask?
I loved the option to be faster by one turn and be able to start and decive your opponent. ^^
And why not playing Terastodon instead of Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus?
You can get ride of all the things bugging you and not only one card and then think "geez, only if I had now a cabal therapy in my graveyard!"
I actually had great succes with the forest/claim sideboard. I play terrastadon main though. You're game will be akward with the lands, but you can abuse land triggers on fetch to double sac bloodghasts, which helps when you board out narcomoebas
Hi I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.
I played the same list as Nicholas in a small tourney.
As expected I usually win on game 1 but i just lose to a turn 1 relic of progenitus.
by the way I was up against a UBW blade deck.
he mulled to five just to get the hate but he had time to recover since my deck was to slow against the hate.
So how do you play around relic of progenitus?
Is contagion still a good side board card?
Is there a new list that's similar but much better against hate?
And by the way i also lose to affinity it was just to fast. Is there anything we could do to win this kind of match ups?
thanks
The kind of post above me is why I rarelty post any more. Dredge is and forever will be a combo deck. Manaless is a whole different animal, ur goal is to avoid MM and dominate. Its that simple. Making a SB depends on ur meta, there is no set 75 that will win. I am tired of hearing about SB options becausee it is whatever. I play LED and DA in the main to maximize g1 wins ... which is exactly where dredge should thrive.
Making a list u are comfortable w is all that matters. BUT, building a board w black leyline hate is another story. This deck is capable of insane things. But it has limitations. Just know that, this deck ... like Dragon Stompy is a meta deck, it folds to certain cards and has bad matchups. Ur goal, when pil0ting dredge should be to capitalize on the the blue idiots playins Standstill BS, and maximizeur list to beat ur meta. Thats it. This deck WILL TAKE AUTO-LOSSES. Its that simple, and if ur not OK with that ... sleeve up anopther deck. Its that simple.
This, what people need to realize is most of the metagame is consigned to taking a game 1 loss vs. us, we have an unfair advantage pre-board and they have an unfair advantage post-board IF they expect you're on Dredge before the tournament and prepare themselves accordingly, which is a big IF. With the way the metagame is headed towards RUG Pro and Blade Control, Dredge is a metagame deck, a glass cannon that'll either hit or miss. You do not react to other decks metagaming against you by playing a different SB, you react to other decks metagaming against you by not playing this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
If posts asking for help with the deck the thread is about disturbs you, maybe you just should not post, then?
Also, this deck does NOT fold to T1 relic, if played correctly/has some luck.
This line of reasoning (at least part of it) is exactly what leads me to play the sideboard I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Game 1 we're typically favored by a respectable margin. Since the sideboard is roughly 50% versus almost everything, this allows us to simply play that and turn our game 1 percentage into our match percentage. Assuming we're 80% game 1 (which is absurd but possibly accurate against most of the top decks) and 50% games 2 and 3 (again, absurd but possibly accurate), our match win percentage would be 80% (i.e. possibly better than Hulk Flash, possibly better than early Necropotence, certainly better than every other dominant deck).
So the question I have is this: what is more valuable for a deck to do, take 80% matchups and make them 90% matchups, or take 0% matchups and make them 80% matchups? (Actually it depends on the relative number of each of these, which is why we don't sideboard 15 cards against Spanish Inquisition or Belcher). Despite the low amount of hate being played, I still think it's worthwhile to preserve our good matchups, possibly garner splash improvement in a few places, and (ideally) beat all the graveyard hate.
(Keep in mind that if they have no hate you can always just run the maindeck again in Game 3, so assume Game1-Game2-Game3 goes 80-50-80 versus 80-80-80 -depending on hate- and 80-50-50 versus 80-5-5 -also depending on hate- .)
Edit: What else would you possibly run in the sideboard, anyway? A million anti-combo cards is the only solution to anything that we can actually implement, and combo {namely, combo that's faster than us} is not nearly as prevalent as graveyard hate.