Modern Banned List

Briefly, as I feel like we've gone afield of my original point;

(I believe) that 12post/Breach Post couldn't speed itself up significantly. I also believe that the deck couldn't significantly increase its protection/disruption without damaging its mana base or threat base, both of with were fragile. Most lists couldn't function with greater efficiency than a sealed deck without resolving Primeval Titan/Green Sun's Zenith, both of which are vulnerable to countermagic. Beyond (maybe) Beast Within, the deck cannot proactively stop problem cards, of which there are many. While the deck was indeed a reasonable choice against slow control decks that refuse to make metagame alterations (as I consider Pyromancers Ascension and SplinterTwin, depending on build, to be control decks with decent finishers as opposed to combo lists - anything packing both Mana Leak and Firespout seems like control to me), I don't believe that it could have been significantly improved enough to deal with the metagame that emerged.

Now, I could have been wrong. Maybe a piece of tech would have emerged that fixes the deck's problems against fast aggro, or makes it more robust against disruption (random note - back in testing, I found that a single Cranial Extraction in a black deck with Beseech the Queen to find it would basically win against 12post). There might have been a card that both doubles as acceleration and protection that no one noticed, or some other unlikely situation. But the deck wasn't an unbeatable juggernaut that forced everyone to run narrow cards maindeck to beat it. The metagame had clearly adapted to the deck, and had found ways to beat it down already, without Wizards making a single change. And I think that letting a metagame find solutions (and I'm not even saying it was a problem) is a much better choice than making sweeping changes on some very limited evidence.

Look, Solidarity represented a hardcap on similar style decks for a very long time in Legacy. Counter heavy control decks with slow win conditions, or unprepared control decks in general had huge problems beating it. This wasn't inherently a good or bad thing, and Solidarity was for a long time a pillar of legacy. I think that solutions to 12post would have been found, just as solutions to Solidarity were found without the heavy handed actions of the DCI.

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Originally Posted by Menteith

Briefly, as I feel like we've gone afield of my original point;

(I believe) that 12post/Breach Post couldn't speed itself up significantly. I also believe that the deck couldn't significantly increase its protection/disruption without damaging its mana base or threat base, both of with were fragile. Most lists couldn't function with greater efficiency than a sealed deck without resolving Primeval Titan/Green Sun's Zenith, both of which are vulnerable to countermagic. Beyond (maybe) Beast Within, the deck cannot proactively stop problem cards, of which there are many. While the deck was indeed a reasonable choice against slow control decks that refuse to make metagame alterations (as I consider Pyromancers Ascension and SplinterTwin, depending on build, to be control decks with decent finishers as opposed to combo lists - anything packing both Mana Leak and Firespout seems like control to me), I don't believe that it could have been significantly improved enough to deal with the metagame that emerged.

Now, I could have been wrong. Maybe a piece of tech would have emerged that fixes the deck's problems against fast aggro, or makes it more robust against disruption (random note - back in testing, I found that a single Cranial Extraction in a black deck with Beseech the Queen to find it would basically win against 12post). There might have been a card that both doubles as acceleration and protection that no one noticed, or some other unlikely situation. But the deck wasn't an unbeatable juggernaut that forced everyone to run narrow cards maindeck to beat it. The metagame had clearly adapted to the deck, and had found ways to beat it down already, without Wizards making a single change. And I think that letting a metagame find solutions (and I'm not even saying it was a problem) is a much better choice than making sweeping changes on some very limited evidence.

Look, Solidarity represented a hardcap on similar style decks for a very long time in Legacy. Counter heavy control decks with slow win conditions, or unprepared control decks in general had huge problems beating it. This wasn't inherently a good or bad thing, and Solidarity was for a long time a pillar of legacy. I think that solutions to 12post would have been found, just as solutions to Solidarity were found without the heavy handed actions of the DCI.

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As someone who played in and extensively tested for that Pro Tour, you are blatantly wrong.

1. You say 12Post had an issue with fast aggro. It did not at all. The fastest Affinity lists were reasonable because A) they could combo on 3 and B) they could Poison post-Glimmerpost, but even those were great. The best Zoo lists were still dogs to the deck. The reason the CFB list was good against it (or even close to good) involved Knight of the Reliquary. Glimmerpost was that dumb.

2. It was way to easy to just get Boseiju and ignore counter magic. You could also just manual an Emrakul.

3. You clearly have no idea how fast this deck was if you suggest Beseech into Extraction as an out. If I didn't have a Titan on turn four, it was a bad game. In fact, the amount of turn three Titans with just normal sequencing was even higher than anyone realized.

4. No tech that sped it up? Did you not notice the Through the Breach list or the Amulet Bounceland one? The later might have been going a little deep, but the Breach list legitimately was that much faster.

5. Pyro and Twin being control is comical. They were combo decks with the 8-10 interactive slots you see in other formats. It just happens that you needed to interact with other combo and things like Pridemage.

I played a literal LD deck at that PT and still lost a match to Breach-Post. Adaptation to it was not a realistic option. It could be done, but the answer was honestly just play on a different axis and combo it out. Without those decks it would be oppressively good. Hell, even the Tron decks now are borderline oppressive.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

It was way to easy to just get Boseiju and ignore counter magic. You could also just manual an Emrakul.

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Worth pointing out that the only list that actually T8ed didn't pack a single Boseiju between main or side. It's certainly helpful in some matchups, but on a list who can only fetch nonbasics via Primeval Titan, it's less than helpful (as the card you really want to resolve is PT/GSZ).

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Originally Posted by AriLax

If I didn't have a Titan on turn four, it was a bad game. In fact, the amount of turn three Titans with just normal sequencing was even higher than anyone realized.

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I'll keep referencing the T8 list for this, unless you'd like to supply a different one. It packs a total of 13 mana acceleration (17 with GSZ for Dryad Arbor). It has no way of fetching Cloudpost outside of PT. It's not impossible to pull off a T3 Titan, but it requires a great deal of luck, and it's even less likely that one could GSZ one out then. Turn 4 is more reasonable, but it's still not something that would occur in every game. If you'd actually like the deck I was working on for awhile (that packed BtQ), I'd be happy to PM it to you for reference.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

No tech that sped it up? Did you not notice the Through the Breach list or the Amulet Bounceland one? The later might have been going a little deep, but the Breach list legitimately was that much faster

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Yup, which is why it's the one I'm working off of. I meant beyond the existing modifications that were showcased at the event. For reference, http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin.../top8decklists

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Pyro and Twin being control is comical. They were combo decks with the 8-10 interactive slots you see in other formats. It just happens that you needed to interact with other combo and things like Pridemage

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Enh, definitions. We're clearly working off a different way of defining the decks - While the decks certainly can win out of the blue, their increased mechanisms for interaction in a given game (as compared to say, ANT or Fetchland Tendrils) cause me to classify them differently. You clearly disagree with that assessment, and I doubt we're going to come to a consensus on it.

And again, I'll cede that you might be entirely correct. My objection is that the DCI made the decision to change the format based on what I see as insufficient evidence - and I originally objected more to Preordain being banned than Cloudpost.

Ancestral Vision - Too good? I'm not sure. I don't have too much experience with this card.
Ancient Den - Affinity.
Bitterblossom - Faeries.
Blazing Shoal - Infect.
Chrome Mox - Fast mana.
Cloudpost - 12Post.
Dark Depths - Hexmage/Depths combo.
Dread Return - Dredge.
Glimpse of Nature - Could get out of hand.
Golgari Grave-Troll - Dredge.
Great Furnace - Affinity.
Green Sun's Zenith - Was proven to be too good.
Hypergenesis - Probably way too powerful.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Do I need to comment on this one?
Mental Misstep - Eh, was banned in Legacy, maybe could be okay in Modern. I guess they just wanted to be safe.
Ponder - Look the old Pyromancer's Ascension decks. They are filled with around 20 cards that pretty much only draw cards. Is this good deckbuilding? And to think that there are cards that they can still use to fill these slots decently. This was banned to slow the dumb combo decks down a bit.
Preordain - See Ponder.
Punishing Fire - Combo with Grove.
Rite of Flame - Fast mana.
Seat of the Synod - Affinity.
Sensei's Divining Top - Way too good.
Stoneforge Mystic - See Jace.
Skullclamp - No comment.
Sword of the Meek - Thopter/Sword combo.
Tree of Tales - Affinity.
Umezawa's Jitte - Way too good.
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle - Scapeshift combo.
Vault of Whispers - Affinity.
Wild Nacatl - Zoo.

Looking at the list and the reasons I provided, I can't find a card that doesn't belong on the list. Maybe my reasons are wrong, but I've thought them through fairly well and I like them. If you disagree with them, I cannot hold that against you, but know that I will not change my views on the banned list.

Also, a single top eight cannot define what the format looked like at the time. I've played the format pretty well and remember hating playing against many of these cards, (although dropping a first turn Warren Instigator through Rite of Flame was really fun). I think the format is meant to be fun, and none of those cards are really too fun for all players.

Preordain and Ponder might also be banned along similar lines of how most tutors are banned in Legacy. You probably could use many of the arguments for keeping those 2 as for unbanning Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

Looking at the list and the reasons I provided, I can't find a card that doesn't belong on the list. Maybe my reasons are wrong, but I've thought them through fairly well and I like them. If you disagree with them, I cannot hold that against you, but know that I will not change my views on the banned list.

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Cool, but could you post a bit more on your views? Saying that Bitterblossom would be played in Faeries isn't exactly an argument for its banning - are you implicitly stating that a deck like Faeries would be harmful to the format in some way, and if so, how would it be harmful?

Additionally, it bothers me that there's a trend in banning the more widely used cards, rather than the niche cards that enable "broken" strategies. For example, Punishing Fire might actually have seen sideboard play against something like Soul Sisters - but instead of banning Grove (which is very unlikely to see play without Punishing Fire), they banned the useful card. The same could be said of Valukut instead of Scapeshift or Ponder/Preordain instead of Pyromancer's Ascension.

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

Preordain and Ponder might also be banned along similar lines of how most tutors are banned in Legacy. You probably could use many of the arguments for keeping those 2 as for unbanning Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor.

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Yeah, except for the fact that they're magnitudes less powerful. I could apply the same argument to Diabolic Tutor, but that doesn't make it any more reasonable. There's nothing inherently overpowered about tutoring - are you simultaneous claiming that Preordain was such a powerful tutor that it needed to be banned for the health of the format, and that Serum Visions (which, while worse, is a very similar card filling the exact same role) didn't?

Menteith:

Literally the stockest of the stock builds of Post was making turn four titans the vast majority of the games we played. That's not even counting if you went deep and found Summoner's Pact to play 9-10 Titans. I don't have the list as we all decided to next level the deck instead of play it and all the similar ones bombed out of the much faster PT environment, but some of the keys were 1 Oracle of Muldaya, Ancient Stirrings being awful, some number of Sylvan Scrying and Reap and Sow. I think we found room for ~2 Beast Within, and I don't remember our exact ramp dude split.

Seriously, trust the person who spent weeks before the PT plus a week working full time on the format in Philly on this one.


On the banned list:

UB Faeries would completely crush almost every single major deck in the format. Jund, Blue-Tron, and Affinity might survive, but that's about it. The resulting metagame would not be nearly as interesting. Faeries has and always will be captain of the fun police.

If you unbanned Nacatl, that would be a different story, but then there's the whole "no reason to not play Zoo" issue.

On Pun Fire-Grove, Pun Fire is the actual engine generating the advantage. Grove is just a durdly land with an atypical drawback.

Of the list, the only cards I could see coming off as of now are Valakut, Visions, and Zenith and even then I'm wary of them.

The best Valakut argument I can make is that Valakut is no worse than Tron. Realistically this probably means you should ban Tron, not unban Valakut.

Visions pushes a lot of boundaries on the already good UW decks and probably doesn't allow for anything new.

GSZ is mostly because I think a fair number of the current non-GSZ green decks would be fine in a GSZ meta, while the card would help deal with Tron. I can easily see Jund and Loam staying around. The Knight of the Reliquary decks have notably been missing as well. Of course, people just wouldn't build new green decks then, which is the same problem that got it banned in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Literally the stockest of the stock builds of Post was making turn four titans the vast majority of the games we played. That's not even counting if you went deep and found Summoner's Pact to play 9-10 Titans. I don't have the list as we all decided to next level the deck instead of play it and all the similar ones bombed out of the much faster PT environment, but some of the keys were 1 Oracle of Muldaya, Ancient Stirrings being awful, some number of Sylvan Scrying and Reap and Sow. I think we found room for ~2 Beast Within, and I don't remember our exact ramp dude split.

Seriously, trust the person who spent weeks before the PT plus a week working full time on the format in Philly on this one.

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Fair enough. My comments have been off of the only Breach Post list to actually post results, which notably lacked Sylvan Scrying or Reap and Sow (though it did have 3 Beast Within).

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Originally Posted by AriLax

On Pun Fire-Grove, Pun Fire is the actual engine generating the advantage. Grove is just a durdly land with an atypical drawback.

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Wait, explain to me how Punishing Fire is an actual engine without Grove? Because it's not an engine without that "durdly land" bring it back - instead it's just a piece of mana inefficient burn that's useful against little animals who gain life, which is sort of what it was designed for.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Of the list, the only cards I could see coming off as of now are Valakut, Visions, and Zenith and even then I'm wary of them.

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Honestly speaking, I'd be fine with Ancestral Visions, Green Sun's Zenith, Mental Misstep, Ponder/Preordain, Punishing Fire, Umezawa's Jitte, and Valakut coming off. At this point though, any changes to the banned list would be more frustrating than just leaving it alone, so meh.

EDIT
With Grove and Scapeshift being banned.

Regarding 12post, the same factor at work with why I'm focusing on Tron these days can be applied to 12post. It's a two-axis thing:

1. Wizards will keep printing good high-mana spells. You can look at Karn Liberated and all the green Genesis-Wave style spells as well as things like Eldrazi. M13 has a lot of giant and dumb spells, and giant dumb spells that are reasonable to cast if you have The Biggest Mana are pretty good. I'm not saying it's an actual strategy but casting Diabolic X-Tutor from M13 for X=4 off of four lands is a pretty steep discount. Casting Karn off of three lands is also a similarly good discount.

2. Wizards will never print nonbasic land hate that is better than what we're seeing right now. Dwarven Miner is just too good to reprint. Let that one sink in. Modern's best nonbasic hate is and will always be stuff like Sowing Salt, Blood Moon and Tectonic Edge. No Wasteland, no Miner, nothing like that.


So big mana decks will get better over time as the card pool deepens and ways to hate the manabase will never improve.

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Originally Posted by Menteith

Honestly speaking, I'd be fine with Ancestral Visions, Green Sun's Zenith, Mental Misstep, Ponder/Preordain, Punishing Fire, Umezawa's Jitte, and Valakut coming off. At this point though, any changes to the banned list would be more frustrating than just leaving it alone, so meh.

EDIT
With Grove and Scapeshift being banned.

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Misstep is just no. I would rather not go down that path with this format. The number of playable one drops is too high to make them all unplayable.

Ponder/Preordain make combo too good. Way too good.

Scapeshift is actually not the issue with Valakut. The Shift combo decks were interactive and interesting. The problem card is Primeval Titan, which is the exact opposite of interesting.

Jitte I've thought a lot about, but I think creature battles are more interesting without it. With it they become Jitte or bust, and it's better to see people actually have to try.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Misstep is just no. I would rather not go down that path with this format. The number of playable one drops is too high to make them all unplayable.

Ponder/Preordain make combo too good. Way too good.

Scapeshift is actually not the issue with Valakut. The Shift combo decks were interactive and interesting. The problem card is Primeval Titan, which is the exact opposite of interesting.

Jitte I've thought a lot about, but I think creature battles are more interesting without it. With it they become Jitte or bust, and it's better to see people actually have to try.

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And I'm willing to admit I might be totally off base on that, and what I think is good for the metagame is awful. I'm of the mind that things need to prove that they're seriously unhealthy for a format before banning, as rapidly shifting a metagame with high prices due to speculation isn't exactly good for stimulating abiding interest in a format.

I agree with ari on this one. Actually I dont even mind mistep. I do not however think any part of the zenith synergy or p funk combo are too format imbalancing.

I never paid any attention to the format and don't think of it highly. But I just realized that the allied fetchlands are not legal in the format while the enemy fetchlands are legal so wtf? Is that true? That's the most ridiculous asymmetrical anomaly an eternal format can have. It's even worse than I thought.

Not a big deal, because you can still fetch all you need.

Perhaps we will see a reprint of the old fetch-lands in an upcoming set to balance the colors out.

The colors don't really need it. Legacy was just fine before Zendikar fetches, and I'd say Modern is even better off than Legacy was just because Wasteland and other forms of non-basic hate aren't problems at all.

Oooooh baby! Valakut's back!

Pity i sold my Primeval Titans or i could have an almost direct port of the old Standard deck.

I'll be interested to see if any decks come out because of this. I'm worried decks built around it will get crushed hard by Tron, but perhaps if it is built like the strange legacy Nic Fit style then it can do well. There's so few cards that actually kill the number of lands you control in the format that it could work.

Keep in mind Prismatic Omen to speed up the deck so that you only need 6 lands in play when you Scapeshift to kill someone.

Already brewing a Valakut/Seismic Assault/Loam/Prismatic Omen/Treasure Hunt deck...and playing roughly 30 lands. Maindecking 4x Scapeshift for sure. I'm just not sure what to use to ramp/dig out lands. So far I have:

Explore
Harrow
Treasure Hunt


Any thoughts on what that kind of deck could do? I'm pretty stoked, but it might just flop.

EDIT: wtf, I forgot Mulch...

Yeah, I'm trying it out with Summer Bloom. It can be fairly explosive, but it requires a lot of tuning/balls to be any good.

Summer Bloom seems really good, especially after a big Treasure Hunt. My biggest quandry is whether to include Primeval Titan or not...he could be right, but could also be wrong. Not sure yet...