[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Good to see this still being worked on. I don't see why Quinn, although now essentially abandoned, gets to be Established while this flavor of monowhite is relegated to New and Dev.

Bb, what makes you think this deck is tier 3? What do you anticipate the major limiting factors to be? Look forward to your list.

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The limiting factor would be the deck itself. As IBA said the deck fundamently doesn't work. Land Tax was great when other draw-engines where Library of Alexandria, Braingeyser and Jayemdae Tome. The draw engines of today are a little more efficient and doesn't need this so much effort to work. Even Standstill isn't played that much now. Maybe is tier 3 a little to low, but the deck won't be as good as some as the the tier 2-decks out there now (MUD, Goblins, Nic Fit for example.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

The reason why Quinn is under Established is because infamousbearassassin (Jack Elgin) used the deck to win back-to-back-to-back tournaments with it and had enough publicity to warrant other decks at its time to sideboard against it.

This deck has only one recorded top 8 (at one of the online MTG Salvation tournaments). Outside of the players from early 2000s and the people that follow this thread and it's Salvation mirror thread, no one really knows how the deck works.

It's good that Bb is keeping the dream alive. I am looking forward to his list because I have to admit, I haven't been contributing; I haven't been playing Legacy because of my hectic schedule.

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My list is no rocketscience. I like to play a consistent as possible deck as possible, capable of having a gameplan with or without Tax/Rack online. I hope to finish my deck (as in real cards) soon too, so I can play some real-life tourney's.

.Bb>

I think going with a stax setup could make this deck work. As it is, these lists look like UW Miracle lists without the blue. No idea how you could beat a combo deck. Adding a Stax package might leverage Land Tax more effectively and give you more time to set up the slow combo win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I think going with a stax setup could make this deck work. As it is, these lists look like UW Miracle lists without the blue. No idea how you could beat a combo deck. Adding a Stax package might leverage Land Tax more effectively and give you more time to set up the slow combo win.

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Putting Land Tax into Stax is probably not good. Stax needs to much non-plain sources (City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Wasteland/Flagstones of Trokair) and needs to play Chalice of the Void with 1 counter disabling Land Tax. It might be solid to borrow some idea's from Stax. Trinisphere and Armageddon seems like 2 cards that in theory could break Land Tax. But I couldn't make it work and I believe (nameless one) tried and dimissed it too.

Define combo? Against Storm we lose, that's correct. We probably lose against OmniShow or Sneak Show and Tinfins, but we got some answers. Dredge should be winnable. Stax got about the same matchup against Dredge, a little better against Tin Fins and Storm, but a little worse against OmniShow and Sneak Show.

But do share your list if you have it. We need people with new ideas.

Here is my take on the deck. I tried alot of different lists (BDI Parfait, UW Parfait, Stax Parfait, Hatebear Parfait) and used alot of idea's of the thread (in fact I there isn't any new tech in the list.) Tested it a little bit, but not enough to give a good board strategy and matchup percentages. I did most testing online (MWS). If someone wants to help testing let me know (European time)

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I'm finally on a build where I can justify every card except the fourth Enlightened Tutor in the deck.

Here is my list

// Maindeck

15 Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Path to Exile
4 Terminus

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in peace

2 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard

4 Leyline of sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat


Card for card analysis

Manabase
I choose to play 19 lands and 4 moxen. 19 lands is the bare-minimum to operate without Land Tax. If you don't draw Land Tax early or it gets countered I want to be able to hit landdrops so I an control the board or race for the combo. Mox Diamond and City of Traitors are my utility. They both help activating Land Tax and accelerate in the bombs.

Carddraw and tutor
Land Tax and Scroll Rack are auto-includes as four-offs. You want to see them every game. Sensei's Divining Top is better then Scroll Rack in a vaccuum, but a bit worse with Land Tax. It's still a powerfull engine that can setup instant speed Terminus and fixes your draw if Land Tax isn't enabled. Now 4 Enlightened Tutors, but I played 3 for two reasons. First of my MD toolbox isn't a bunch of specific 1-off's, so even with 3 tutors I play 5/6 copies of eacht silver bullet. Second because Enlightened Tutor is bad in multiples. But I don't know what to play in it's place

Removal
Path to Exile and Terminus are just the best removal spells. Terminus is easy to setup with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top. Path to Exile can just be as easily be Swords to Plowshare. I found Path to Exile a little better, because sometimes it's removal without a drawback. It gives the opponent though choices, if they want to activate your Land Tax. Also if you are forced to go for winning with Elspeth, Knight-Errant the lifegain of Swords to Plowshare can matter.

Enchantments
Only the targets that are good on there own and/or can have a high impact on the game. Other possible targets are overkill or need to much cards to work (more explanation later.) Humility just shuts down so many decks. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle are almost never dead draws. Pithing Needle stops Deathrite shaman (because it's not a mana-ability) and AEther Vial. Two cards that can hamper Land Tax. Rest in Peace is half combo and very solid in this meta too.

Win-condtitions
Helm of Obedience is the best win-condition for this deck. If it hits it's game over (unlike Goblin Charbelcher) It's quite easy to setup and randomly gets creatures from your opponent. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a 1-card kill that doesn't need alot of support. It's quite slow, but can control the board too. Very solid with Humility next to it.

Sideboard
Where the maindeck is build on consitenty, the sideboard is more like finding the right tool for the moment. Leyline of Sanctity is a 4-off so you can start the game with it. Normally use agasint combo and heavy discard. Aura of Silence is usesfull in a plentora of matchups, killing Counterbalance, slowing down mana-artifacts and being an alternative (although weak) answer to Omniscience.
Ethersworn Canonist/Trinisphere/Rule of Law/Nevermore are the normal answers combo. 4 different cards because the ability of the cards doesn't stack and it's harder to remove 2/3 different pieces of hate than multiple of 1 (Echoing Truth.) Nevermore and Ethersworn Canonist does have some other utility in other matchups too. Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to fight of the removal opponents will side in against you. Luminarch Ascension against control, if you can land it early the other deck got a decent clock. Moat is additional hate against creature decks.

In this deck, I'm not sure on 1 spot, now the fourth Enlightened Tutor. This could just be a third Pithing Needle, a Plains or a Blood Moon.


Cards that didn't make the cut.

Wasteland / Ghost Quarters because there impact isn't big enough and you can't really run less then 15 white sources to guarentee turn 1 white mana. Crystal Veins is just worse then City of Traitors, tapping twice for 2-mana is just solid. Lotus Vale is very powerfull, but the biggest problem is that it doesn't fill a landslot. It has to compete with the Mox Diamond slot, but Mox Diamond gets the slots because it can't 3 for 1 you. Serra's Sanctum can be used, but without the ability to tutor for lands, you can't guarantee to draw it when you need it. It also activates your opponents Wasteland. You can use the card lategame when you got some enchantments, but by then, you probably have enough mana anyway. There isn't a card you can sink the mana in. Karakas might be usefull to play, but a little hard to find. Dark Depths and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale won't tap for mana, which isn't really good with Land Tax. Fetchlands are surely playable, but out of my list at the moment. Most of the time they matter to little.
Tithe was cut, because lack of space. Might be possible if you start splashing other colours. Swords to Plowshare can be added if you need more removal, but between 4 Path to Exile, 4 Terminus, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Humility and 3 Rest in Peace stopping creatures isn't that hard.

Why not the more utility enchantments?

Here the reason's for the more commenly played Enchantments:

Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.

Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.

Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.

Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.

Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.

Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.

Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.

Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.

Splashing colours

For now I say no, because most colours doesn't give any better tools then white already has. Maindeck I can't think of a card I want to have in another colour. I tried a heavy red splash for Devastating Dreams/Winds of Change. It was fun when it worked, but I couldn't get it conistent. I tried a black version with Raven's Crime (on paper is Retrace is solid with Land Tax) and Chains of Mephistopheles, but couldn't clear my opponent hand fast enough and couldn't keep him/her locked before winning the game (Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience doesn't work.) You also discards your lands instead of shuffling them back, so if the game goes to long you can't retrace anymore because you are out lands.

Some playtips:

- Don't try to force Land Tax to much, but do not overextend your lands without reason. The deck works on very few lands, if your can force your opponent to play on just as many lands, you are still in quite good position. Also normally 2 Land Tax triggers is enough to win.

- Know when to tutor, Scroll Rack, Sensei's Divining Top. With Land Tax out, you normally have use Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor during your upkeep so you don't shuffle them away with Land Tax. Same is true if you want to play Terminus with Scroll Rack. It's quite obvious, but it better save then sorry.

- Helm of Obedience can be relevant without Rest in Peace. Against Reanimator or Sneak Show you can get lucky.

- Know the rules:
Land Tax checks land-counts twice. The first time at the beginning of your upkeep (so before you can do anyting in your turn.) And when the ability resolves. If you want to trick the opponent by killing a land of your own, you have to do it end of turn. Your opponent kan kill a land of during your upkeep. The Land Tax trigger goes on the stack, but you won't find any lands. If an opponent fetches during your upkeep and finds a land you can just search lands though.

You don't have to find three lands with Land Tax, Just make sure that you have 7 cards in hand at end of turn. You can also find 0 cards and just shuffle.

You can prevent decking with Scroll Rack to put more cards back in your library then you had before.

They don't have to find a land with Path to Exile, so it won't guarantee that it activates Land Tax.

You don't have to discard a land with Mox Diamond before it resolves. So if the opponent counters it, you only lost your Mox Diamond. You can't tap it for mana without discarding a land though. If I look at the cards and the rules it's crystal clear, but somehow I remember there was a time you had to discard as part of the cost.

Relevant things that Humility doesn't stop: Cascade, Magus of the Moon's ability, Painter's Servant's ability and the extra turn of a hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn( or the destroy effect of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.)

Matchups

I haven't had enough experience to give win-percentages. So just play strategies and board suggestions:

Miracle Control

Control versus control. We are the more traditional control. Both decks got some bad cards in the matchup. We got a very solid draw-engine and it isn't hard for us to keep it online. The problem is getting it online. Counterbalance is solid against our low curve and it can keep our bombs of the table. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle should stop this as soon as possible. Resolving an Elspeth, Knight-Errant will make it very hard for the opponent to win. Punishing Fire is something to watch out for, but Rest in Peace can deal with that. The match is about finding the right answers. The one who gets their engine out first, will probably win.

Cards to watch out for: Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Karakas.

Boarding
- 4 Terminus
+1 Luminarch Ascension
+1 Karmic Justice
+2 Aura of Silence

Not much to bring in. Post board the match stays the same.

BUG Shardless

A weird matchup I haven't really played enough. They need quite some mana to work so you probably can get Land Tax online. If they go Shardless into nuts it's tough.

Cards to watch out for: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil, Shardless Agent
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil

Boarding

-1 Terminus
-1 Oblivion Ring

+1 Karmic Justice
+1 Greater Auramancy

Protecting our Enchantments is top priority game 2.

Elves Combo

Should be winnable on paper, but a very tricky matchup. Land Tax is useless early game. Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top very solid because they setup Terminus. Normally resolving one can create a window to go for Humility to stop the deck. They can still blow you out of the water though. Don't waste time when you think you have locked the game. Go for Helm of Obedience combo.

Cards to watch out for: Glimpse of Nature, Heritage Druid
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Wirewood Symbiote, Qasali Pridemage, Quirion Ranger

Boarding
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Moat

Post board it gets a little better, the gameplay stays the same. Slow them down, until your bombs can take over.

MonoU Omnitell

Easy matchup pre-board, you can't actually loose, uhm... Pre-board you probably just sit on the other side of the table and try to find out how they will kill you. Race as fast as possible for the Helm of Obedience. You might be able to foil the combo with Oblivion Ring, but more often then not, it's not enough.

Cards to watch out for: Show and Tell, Dream Halls
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands

Boarding
-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Post board still troublesome. Try to hate them out of the game. Throw anything you got at them to slow them down. Hopefully they can't deal with everything.

ANT

Game 1 is an autoloss. You can't do anything to stop them from comboing. Just race for the combo, but you're not fast enough.

Cards to watch out for: Ad Nauseam, Past in Flame

Boarding

-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Same as Omnitell. Get enough speedbumbs out and go for the throat.


Canadian Thresh

Try to keep the threads off the board. Delver of Secrets is quite a fast clock. Rest in Peace stops most of there creatures (Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage.) 1 or 2 triggers of Land Tax is enough to get enough advantage over the opponent. Try to cast your bombs around Daze and Spell Pierce. Don't hold your mana to much back, just to be able to Land Tax, they can operate under few lands and have means to control their own land-count.

Cards to watch out for: Delver of Secrets, Spell Pierce, Force of Will
cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands, Wasteland

Boarding

-2 Pithing Needle
+1 Greater Auramancy
+1 Karmic Justice

No real boarding needed. Pithing Needle doesn't have enough targets to include. They normally bring in some targeted hate, so Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to stop them.



Any tips, suggestions, questions?

.Bb>

I want to comment on Path to Exile.

The problem I have with PtE is it gives your opponent that extra land. Sure it triggers Land Tax but a lot of times, it helps the opponent more. Not to mention you're not going to have Land Tax half of the time.

Against swarm-aggro, it accelerates them to lay more threats. Against midrange, it's important for them to hit land drops to get back in the game. Against control, you just helped them accelerate to Jace.

Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but that's what I find.

My go to list and your list seems similar (only difference in numbers + Lotus Vale and the choice exiler)

I believe that Trinisphere needs more than one slot in the side. It's so good against decks that this deck is generally bad against: Canadian Thresh, Storm Combi, OmniDerp and other tempo strategy.

I'll think about what you said about Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale is either really good or really bad. It helps you win games or it will help you lose. I personally do not mind it. To me, its a Black Lotus that costs 3 land drops that helps trigger Land Tax. I realistically only need it to cast Humility, Elspeth and Helm. While the same can be said with City of Traitors, I think I'd still run at leasr two of them. Keep in mind that you can still pitch them to Mox Diamond.

Another thing I want to bring up: Cataclysm and Armageddon

Although my testing is limited, I believe this deck can abuse the hell out of Cataclysm. Really the only bad thing I found while testing is its interaction with O-Ring. You O-Ring something and now it's back.

Armageddon can be good in slowing your opponent. The problem with it however is that it's only great when you already have Land Tax.

Now that someone mentioned Stax, has anyone tried Smokestack before? Get rid of your lands (and get them back via Land Tax) while your opponent scrambles?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Putting Land Tax into Stax is probably not good. Stax needs to much non-plain sources (City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Wasteland/Flagstones of Trokair) and needs to play Chalice of the Void with 1 counter disabling Land Tax. It might be solid to borrow some idea's from Stax. Trinisphere and Armageddon seems like 2 cards that in theory could break Land Tax. But I couldn't make it work and I believe (nameless one) tried and dimissed it too.

Define combo? Against Storm we lose, that's correct. We probably lose against OmniShow or Sneak Show and Tinfins, but we got some answers. Dredge should be winnable. Stax got about the same matchup against Dredge, a little better against Tin Fins and Storm, but a little worse against OmniShow and Sneak Show.

But do share your list if you have it. We need people with new ideas.

Here is my take on the deck. I tried alot of different lists (BDI Parfait, UW Parfait, Stax Parfait, Hatebear Parfait) and used alot of idea's of the thread (in fact I there isn't any new tech in the list.) Tested it a little bit, but not enough to give a good board strategy and matchup percentages. I did most testing online (MWS). If someone wants to help testing let me know (European time)

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I'm finally on a build where I can justify every card except the fourth Enlightened Tutor in the deck.

Here is my list

// Maindeck

15 Plains
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Path to Exile
4 Terminus

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in peace

2 Helm of Obedience
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard

4 Leyline of sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat


Card for card analysis

Manabase
I choose to play 19 lands and 4 moxen. 19 lands is the bare-minimum to operate without Land Tax. If you don't draw Land Tax early or it gets countered I want to be able to hit landdrops so I an control the board or race for the combo. Mox Diamond and City of Traitors are my utility. They both help activating Land Tax and accelerate in the bombs.

Carddraw and tutor
Land Tax and Scroll Rack are auto-includes as four-offs. You want to see them every game. Sensei's Divining Top is better then Scroll Rack in a vaccuum, but a bit worse with Land Tax. It's still a powerfull engine that can setup instant speed Terminus and fixes your draw if Land Tax isn't enabled. Now 4 Enlightened Tutors, but I played 3 for two reasons. First of my MD toolbox isn't a bunch of specific 1-off's, so even with 3 tutors I play 5/6 copies of eacht silver bullet. Second because Enlightened Tutor is bad in multiples. But I don't know what to play in it's place

Removal
Path to Exile and Terminus are just the best removal spells. Terminus is easy to setup with Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top. Path to Exile can just be as easily be Swords to Plowshare. I found Path to Exile a little better, because sometimes it's removal without a drawback. It gives the opponent though choices, if they want to activate your Land Tax. Also if you are forced to go for winning with Elspeth, Knight-Errant the lifegain of Swords to Plowshare can matter.

Enchantments
Only the targets that are good on there own and/or can have a high impact on the game. Other possible targets are overkill or need to much cards to work (more explanation later.) Humility just shuts down so many decks. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle are almost never dead draws. Pithing Needle stops Deathrite shaman (because it's not a mana-ability) and AEther Vial. Two cards that can hamper Land Tax. Rest in Peace is half combo and very solid in this meta too.

Win-condtitions
Helm of Obedience is the best win-condition for this deck. If it hits it's game over (unlike Goblin Charbelcher) It's quite easy to setup and randomly gets creatures from your opponent. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a 1-card kill that doesn't need alot of support. It's quite slow, but can control the board too. Very solid with Humility next to it.

Sideboard
Where the maindeck is build on consitenty, the sideboard is more like finding the right tool for the moment. Leyline of Sanctity is a 4-off so you can start the game with it. Normally use agasint combo and heavy discard. Aura of Silence is usesfull in a plentora of matchups, killing Counterbalance, slowing down mana-artifacts and being an alternative (although weak) answer to Omniscience.
Ethersworn Canonist/Trinisphere/Rule of Law/Nevermore are the normal answers combo. 4 different cards because the ability of the cards doesn't stack and it's harder to remove 2/3 different pieces of hate than multiple of 1 (Echoing Truth.) Nevermore and Ethersworn Canonist does have some other utility in other matchups too. Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to fight of the removal opponents will side in against you. Luminarch Ascension against control, if you can land it early the other deck got a decent clock. Moat is additional hate against creature decks.

In this deck, I'm not sure on 1 spot, now the fourth Enlightened Tutor. This could just be a third Pithing Needle, a Plains or a Blood Moon.


Cards that didn't make the cut.

Wasteland / Ghost Quarters because there impact isn't big enough and you can't really run less then 15 white sources to guarentee turn 1 white mana. Crystal Veins is just worse then City of Traitors, tapping twice for 2-mana is just solid. Lotus Vale is very powerfull, but the biggest problem is that it doesn't fill a landslot. It has to compete with the Mox Diamond slot, but Mox Diamond gets the slots because it can't 3 for 1 you. Serra's Sanctum can be used, but without the ability to tutor for lands, you can't guarantee to draw it when you need it. It also activates your opponents Wasteland. You can use the card lategame when you got some enchantments, but by then, you probably have enough mana anyway. There isn't a card you can sink the mana in. Karakas might be usefull to play, but a little hard to find. Dark Depths and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale won't tap for mana, which isn't really good with Land Tax. Fetchlands are surely playable, but out of my list at the moment. Most of the time they matter to little.
Tithe was cut, because lack of space. Might be possible if you start splashing other colours. Swords to Plowshare can be added if you need more removal, but between 4 Path to Exile, 4 Terminus, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Humility and 3 Rest in Peace stopping creatures isn't that hard.

Why not the more utility enchantments?

Here the reason's for the more commenly played Enchantments:

Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.

Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.

Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.

Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.

Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.

Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.

Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.

Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.

Splashing colours

For now I say no, because most colours doesn't give any better tools then white already has. Maindeck I can't think of a card I want to have in another colour. I tried a heavy red splash for Devastating Dreams/Winds of Change. It was fun when it worked, but I couldn't get it conistent. I tried a black version with Raven's Crime (on paper is Retrace is solid with Land Tax) and Chains of Mephistopheles, but couldn't clear my opponent hand fast enough and couldn't keep him/her locked before winning the game (Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience doesn't work.) You also discards your lands instead of shuffling them back, so if the game goes to long you can't retrace anymore because you are out lands.

Some playtips:

- Don't try to force Land Tax to much, but do not overextend your lands without reason. The deck works on very few lands, if your can force your opponent to play on just as many lands, you are still in quite good position. Also normally 2 Land Tax triggers is enough to win.

- Know when to tutor, Scroll Rack, Sensei's Divining Top. With Land Tax out, you normally have use Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor during your upkeep so you don't shuffle them away with Land Tax. Same is true if you want to play Terminus with Scroll Rack. It's quite obvious, but it better save then sorry.

- Helm of Obedience can be relevant without Rest in Peace. Against Reanimator or Sneak Show you can get lucky.

- Know the rules:
Land Tax checks land-counts twice. The first time at the beginning of your upkeep (so before you can do anyting in your turn.) And when the ability resolves. If you want to trick the opponent by killing a land of your own, you have to do it end of turn. Your opponent kan kill a land of during your upkeep. The Land Tax trigger goes on the stack, but you won't find any lands. If an opponent fetches during your upkeep and finds a land you can just search lands though.

You don't have to find three lands with Land Tax, Just make sure that you have 7 cards in hand at end of turn. You can also find 0 cards and just shuffle.

You can prevent decking with Scroll Rack to put more cards back in your library then you had before.

They don't have to find a land with Path to Exile, so it won't guarantee that it activates Land Tax.

You don't have to discard a land with Mox Diamond before it resolves. So if the opponent counters it, you only lost your Mox Diamond. You can't tap it for mana without discarding a land though. If I look at the cards and the rules it's crystal clear, but somehow I remember there was a time you had to discard as part of the cost.

Relevant things that Humility doesn't stop: Cascade, Magus of the Moon's ability, Painter's Servant's ability and the extra turn of a hardcast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn( or the destroy effect of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.)

Matchups

I haven't had enough experience to give win-percentages. So just play strategies and board suggestions:

Miracle Control

Control versus control. We are the more traditional control. Both decks got some bad cards in the matchup. We got a very solid draw-engine and it isn't hard for us to keep it online. The problem is getting it online. Counterbalance is solid against our low curve and it can keep our bombs of the table. Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle should stop this as soon as possible. Resolving an Elspeth, Knight-Errant will make it very hard for the opponent to win. Punishing Fire is something to watch out for, but Rest in Peace can deal with that. The match is about finding the right answers. The one who gets their engine out first, will probably win.

Cards to watch out for: Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Karakas.

Boarding
- 4 Terminus
+1 Luminarch Ascension
+1 Karmic Justice
+2 Aura of Silence

Not much to bring in. Post board the match stays the same.

BUG Shardless

A weird matchup I haven't really played enough. They need quite some mana to work so you probably can get Land Tax online. If they go Shardless into nuts it's tough.

Cards to watch out for: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil, Shardless Agent
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana of the Veil

Boarding

-1 Terminus
-1 Oblivion Ring

+1 Karmic Justice
+1 Greater Auramancy

Protecting our Enchantments is top priority game 2.

Elves Combo

Should be winnable on paper, but a very tricky matchup. Land Tax is useless early game. Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top very solid because they setup Terminus. Normally resolving one can create a window to go for Humility to stop the deck. They can still blow you out of the water though. Don't waste time when you think you have locked the game. Go for Helm of Obedience combo.

Cards to watch out for: Glimpse of Nature, Heritage Druid
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Wirewood Symbiote, Qasali Pridemage, Quirion Ranger

Boarding
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Moat

Post board it gets a little better, the gameplay stays the same. Slow them down, until your bombs can take over.

MonoU Omnitell

Easy matchup pre-board, you can't actually loose, uhm... Pre-board you probably just sit on the other side of the table and try to find out how they will kill you. Race as fast as possible for the Helm of Obedience. You might be able to foil the combo with Oblivion Ring, but more often then not, it's not enough.

Cards to watch out for: Show and Tell, Dream Halls
Cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands

Boarding
-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Post board still troublesome. Try to hate them out of the game. Throw anything you got at them to slow them down. Hopefully they can't deal with everything.

ANT

Game 1 is an autoloss. You can't do anything to stop them from comboing. Just race for the combo, but you're not fast enough.

Cards to watch out for: Ad Nauseam, Past in Flame

Boarding

-4 Terminus
-4 Path to Exile
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Humility
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
+3 Aura of Silence
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Nevermore
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Greater Auramancy

Same as Omnitell. Get enough speedbumbs out and go for the throat.


Canadian Thresh

Try to keep the threads off the board. Delver of Secrets is quite a fast clock. Rest in Peace stops most of there creatures (Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage.) 1 or 2 triggers of Land Tax is enough to get enough advantage over the opponent. Try to cast your bombs around Daze and Spell Pierce. Don't hold your mana to much back, just to be able to Land Tax, they can operate under few lands and have means to control their own land-count.

Cards to watch out for: Delver of Secrets, Spell Pierce, Force of Will
cards to hit with Pithing Needle: Fetchlands, Wasteland

Boarding

-2 Pithing Needle
+1 Greater Auramancy
+1 Karmic Justice

No real boarding needed. Pithing Needle doesn't have enough targets to include. They normally bring in some targeted hate, so Greater Auramancy and Karmic Justice to stop them.



Any tips, suggestions, questions?

.Bb>

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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

I want to comment on Path to Exile.

The problem I have with PtE is it gives your opponent that extra land. Sure it triggers Land Tax but a lot of times, it helps the opponent more. Not to mention you're not going to have Land Tax half of the time.

Against swarm-aggro, it accelerates them to lay more threats. Against midrange, it's important for them to hit land drops to get back in the game. Against control, you just helped them accelerate to Jace.

Maybe I'm doing it all wrong but that's what I find.

My go to list and your list seems similar (only difference in numbers + Lotus Vale and the choice exiler)

I believe that Trinisphere needs more than one slot in the side. It's so good against decks that this deck is generally bad against: Canadian Thresh, Storm Combi, OmniDerp and other tempo strategy.

I'll think about what you said about Lotus Vale. Lotus Vale is either really good or really bad. It helps you win games or it will help you lose. I personally do not mind it. To me, its a Black Lotus that costs 3 land drops that helps trigger Land Tax. I realistically only need it to cast Humility, Elspeth and Helm. While the same can be said with City of Traitors, I think I'd still run at leasr two of them. Keep in mind that you can still pitch them to Mox Diamond.

Another thing I want to bring up: Cataclysm and Armageddon

Although my testing is limited, I believe this deck can abuse the hell out of Cataclysm. Really the only bad thing I found while testing is its interaction with O-Ring. You O-Ring something and now it's back.

Armageddon can be good in slowing your opponent. The problem with it however is that it's only great when you already have Land Tax.

Now that someone mentioned Stax, has anyone tried Smokestack before? Get rid of your lands (and get them back via Land Tax) while your opponent scrambles?

---

I also do not have much time but the last days I was testing Parfait, and I became to the conclusión in using full of Argivian Find to maximize the chances of recouping your Bomb Or Engine.

I use 3 cataclism 4 Thalia in side as strategy and I'm also considering to bring both Cataclism and maybe SmokeStax,

The problema I have mainly with such archetypes is that they Loose vs control and this fact sucks, and this is exactly what I'm going to accomplish. Tryed 6 REB effects, b.wish etc. etc. and nothing...

Another point I'0mk considering is Orims, I really think we dont need it, the main goals I want to accomplish are:
getting the engine working or get bullets and maintain them, so waht I find is that Redundancy OR recoupiing effects can be the key, even I'm thinking in duress or t.seize effects, but orims does nothnkg vs a.decay, but A.Find does a lot in here...

Just some thooutghs about this archetype I love so much but I loose with with soo many pairings...
I even though on Spehere of resistence. Maybe Stax Mode can work...

Back in 2010, when Land Tax was getting the unban lobby, Stephen Menendian posted this list:

11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland


1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares


A lot of cards have been printed since that time but I think this is the principle you're going for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Back in 2010, when Land Tax was getting the unban lobby, Stephen Menendian posted this list:

11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland


1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares


A lot of cards have been printed since that time but I think this is the principle you're going for.

---

Yes I think so,

I've been thinking on Trini as well, Sphere of resistance seems another option as its effect is accumulative (maybe lodestone golem -but it is creature),
But the problem I see is that you'll need to speed up your lands in the form of City of Traitors to make Trini really effective as it is effective if you play it soon and the mana base of that deck really sucks if you intend to play Trini soon.

At least we agree that A.Find should be played 3 as mínimum - I play 4.
And regarding Orims effect I maybe will reduce the number to 3.
I do not play swords and still I think they re unnecesary at least in main. - I never tested in any build I made. we based the deck on silver bullets: A well played humility or Moat should avoid playing Swords.

Also 16 lands will not work with 4 moxen and absolutly will not work if you intend to play Trini. What do you think regarding this?

What do you think related to 4 Wastelands? I do not see this neccesary -> Crucible I think it is played only because of wasteland ritgh? becuase I do not see crucible also neccessary. What do you think related to this?

Also and for the rest of folks: Swords > Path to exile in Tax - Rack Decks. No discussion in here.

I think he justifies both running 16 lands and Wasteland with Crucible although I do agree that 16 lands is problematic. There will be games that you're not gonna get Land Tax on the field.

I still think that Wasteland will be helpful, especially taking out lands that produce two or more mana.

As for StP, I think you still wanna have it because there will be early game threats that you wanna get rid of (early Goblin Lackey, Bob, SFMystic, Delver, Goyf to name a few)

Hi,

Path to Exile vs Swords To Plowshare

Looking at the Deck to Beat forum

Path to Exile is better:
Elves!
Reanimator
Canadian Thresh
Jund
Team America

Swords to Plowshare is better
Blade Control
Miracle Control
BUG Shardless Control

Depending on situation
GW Maverick

Both bad
ANT
Omnitell

Just dismissing one because you have a bad experience with it, doesn't make it a bad card. I say it's very meta depending. If you want to go for the save side go for Swords to Plowshare, but Path to Exile can win you some games.

Cataclysm: It can't control the board well enough or you need to run suboptimal cards. If your opponent leaves a board with AEther Vial, Lord of Atlantis, Island or Volcanic Island, Tarmagoyf, or Island, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance you are still loosing the game. It's a win-more in most cases.

Armageddon is another beast. You need other cards to help it, but can lock out the game a little better. Resolving it with a Ghostly Prison out or a Magus of Tabernacle and a Trinisphere is good. Getting Land Tax going before you Armageddon before you blow out the board and then take advantage of the time you get is good too.

Building a deck around is is alot harder. A Stax shell seems the best, but that deck has quite a high curve, where Land Tax doesn't fit in easily. Chalice of the Void is also unplayable.

The list of Stephen Menendian is not good. Sixteen lands and alot of cards with a cc of 4 in this meta isn't gonna work.

Maybe a mana-base with 4 City of Traitors, 2 Ancient Tom, 4 Wasteland 10 Plains is a good start. But then you go quite low in white sources.

.Bb>

@Bennie:
@Nameless One
I can warranty that with the list you posted you will not be able to win Miracle OR BUG Control, this is a fact. and this fact is waht I intend to handle,
I've tested several versions of Parfait (I tested one with 6 REB in main.... )

I also do not want to loose vs control in general or Reanimator or S&T, this would be ideal.....

The cataclism card I think handles lot of problems the deck has:

It destroyes Lands, creatures and Planeswalkers!

The effect Cataclism can produce is much stronger than Armagedón, the difference is just 1 land, but I'm assuming I will test some kind of Mana Denial (Trini OR Sphere of Resistence) So maybe I eveluate to include Sowrds for the first Time! to get rid of that lonely creature... butr not sure....

I really think that the Trini OR Sphere Of Resistance + Cataclism + Ancient Tomb lands will improve our Control Match up! and then go for Stax!

I need to post my latest build of Parfait I'll do soon.... but please do not use it is just crap I lost with it vs Reanimator, Miracles all the times, and BUG all the times....

I agree with Pelikanudo on the control matchup.

The three things I don't want to see across the table are AEther Vial, Sensei's Divining Top and Super Jace. This is why I pack three Pithing Needle on the main.

Cataclysm is the next best thing to Balance in this format and this deck needs Balance. Sure it can run Terminus but that card only gets rid of problem creatures.

The only problem I have with Cataclysm are its interaction with Oblivion Ring and what to remove in its place.

Please share you're list Pelikanudo.

Cataclysm, unlike Balance needs a deck around it.

In Angelstompy Cataclysm was good because you could leave something on the board like a Serra Avenger with an Sword of Fire and Ice on it and a land, making sure you can thrump the only creature on the other side.

I would like to see a list using Cataclysm, because it should be a whole other list then I'm using. You need spellbased control instead of permanent based control to minimize the effect of Cataclysm. Or we must follow up with Replenish.

The advantage of Armageddon is that it only kills permanents we can recoup very fast with Land Tax.

I'm still not sold on Cataclysm, but if you can provide a deck idea I would love to test that.

It's a pity that Pox and Smallpox costs so much black. They seem very efficient with Land Tax.

.Bb>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Back in 2010, when Land Tax was getting the unban lobby, Stephen Menendian posted this list:

11 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland


1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares


A lot of cards have been printed since that time but I think this is the principle you're going for.

---

Hi! I have been reading this tread a lot of months, im from Chile (sorry for my english). I have a parfait list a little different, with batterskull for win condition, knowing RIP + helm is better. I will post my list in some other day. Some things, i know it seems not good in paper, but i have one Exalted Angel :eek: and always have been helpfull, really. Winning time or has a second win condition. Second, I had some problems with terminus, because having only scroll rack to use well terminus (without having Sensei’s Divining Top) some times is not enough...i had wished for having a wrath of god or one of the 2 humillity in my hand that moment. And 3, Stephen Menendian has another list more updated, from 2012, that his my base to reach my list. His list is this:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873

Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Telim Tor

Hi! I have been reading this tread a lot of months, im from Chile (sorry for my english). I have a parfait list a little different, with batterskull for win condition, knowing RIP + helm is better. I will post my list in some other day. Some things, i know it seems not good in paper, but i have one Exalted Angel :eek: and always have been helpfull, really. Winning time or has a second win condition. Second, I had some problems with terminus, because having only scroll rack to use well terminus (without having Sensei’s Divining Top) some times is not enough...i had wished for having a wrath of god or one of the 2 humillity in my hand that moment. And 3, Stephen Menendian has another list more updated, from 2012, that his my base to reach my list. His list is this:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2873

Cheers

---

Batterskull isn't worse win condition per se. I was a little frustrated with the kills in my build, especially Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I'm now testing another build with Batterskull and Goblin Charbelcher as win condtions. I have removed some control elements to be able to kill faster and more consistent. A problem I had was that control decks just could counter my win-conditions and wouldn't be bothered by anything else. Without the RIP kill I can play Argivian Find to get a bigger thread densitity. With Goblin Charbelcher I also started testing Blood Moon again. I'm also testing Lotus Petal with moderate succes. Although it looks very bad in a control deck, it helped getting Land Tax online and my kill conditions a little earlier. I just tried of soft-locking the opponent with some powerfull enchanments and go for the win as fast as possible.

My current build probably isn't as powerfull as the one posted earlier, but it's fun to play.

.Bb>

Benie, I fooled with this enough to echo the problems you faced concerning opposing counterspells. It is a big problem. I found that I could safely use all five colors though, and I just used Raven's Crime to rip their hands apart. I, too had to stop using the RIP kill though. It is a tough call, but at the least, you can swap out RIP for Crime when facing blue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Maybe a mana-base with 4 City of Traitors, 2 Ancient Tom, 4 Wasteland 10 Plains is a good start. But then you go quite low in white sources.

.Bb>

---

Why are you playing Land Tax with wasteland? Make a white prison deck with Chalice with that mana base.

This got posted at Everyday Eternal

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
[Business] [35]
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Humility
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminus
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Trading Post
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Armageddon
3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Burning Wish

[Mana Sources] [25]
4 Mox Diamond
1 Karakas
4 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plateau
9 Plains
1 Mountain

[Sideboard] [15]
1 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Boiling Seas
1 Shattering Spree
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Tremor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruination
1 Red Sun’s Zenith
1 Tariff
1 Cataclysm


It's rough but it emphasizes Burning Wish, something that I have discussed at MTGSalvation mirror thread before. Hopefully we hear more from him about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

List by Sean O'Brien (aka the Nether Void guy):
.

---

This post made me lol because of the post right above this one...

Well anyone suggesting Scroll Rack and playing white but not suggesting Miracles is missing something.