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Tempo can be tough, but Elephant Grass is really great against it. They're intrinsically mana light, so you slow them down a lot if they want to attack, and you aren't losing if they aren't swinging. And since you're running multiples of Rest in Peace, that should turn off both Goyf and DRS.
What would you guys say your best answer is to a turn 1 Chalice of the Void on 1? It seems pretty difficult to dig yourself out of that.
Not really. As long as you've got the Mana to get an Enchantress effect online by turn 3, you'll do fine. Remember that Chalice counters the spell rather than stopping you from playing it, so you can still cast Guile or Wild Growth into Chalice at 1 to draw. Against MUD, I usually save my removal for their Metalworkers and wincons, since their threats are solveable with Sphere.
What do you guys think is the best storm combo hate ?
The Leylines can be bounce easily :/
@ RUG – IMHO this match-up has gotten significantly better over the more recent builds that re-include Elephant Grass. I consider this match positive with GW helm now. As btm10 has stated just play the game they give you. If they don’t drop a T1 threat assume stifle. If they to play a T1 threat be sure to use your fetch. ….even when you are getting beat down by a Delver take your time to play around Daze and Pierce so long you can afford it, and you’ll be fine. Post board Carpet of Flowers makes being patient that much easier, and forces the RUG player to either drop lands and play into Carpet or just get tempo-ed by E. Grass.
@Chalice for 1 – btm10 hit the main points. You draw on cast and it doesn’t hit GSZ, Presence, or Argothian. It really isn’t anything much more than a nuisance most of the time.
@Storm – Latest builds got this match roughly even if not ever so slightly positive post board. It’s a combo of Gaddock, Solitary, Stony Silence, Leyline, RIP, Sterling that overloads their bounce. Game 1 is a race to confinement which can be hit and sustained as early as turn 3 and with uber good draws turn 2.
I will try Porphyry Node as a Sideboard option.
Did someone tried it?
Maybe they'll print something to give your enchantments shroud. One can always hope!Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCake
Sterling Grove ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I think nedleeds was being sarcastic. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCake
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
...or two. Greater Auramancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCake
...but honestly you are better off attacking Storm from another angle as opposed to trying to shroud Leyline. As many times Storm will just Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames to double or even quadruple bounce FTW.
This is why Gaddock Teeg is so good even though he shuts off future Green Sun's and Helm.
Hey, just wanted to ask you what you think about this list, which I am contemplating.
Know that this list is very geared towards my local meta (Which is why I decided to have Leylines in the MD. Planning to board them out in the matchups where I don't need them rather than the other way around. I estimate that I will indeed need them about 75% of the matches.) What do you think about this list then with that in mind?
MD:
1 karakas
2 serra's sanctum
2 windswept heath
1 savannah
7 forest
1 plains
4 misty rainforest
1 island
3 mirri's guile
1 oblivion ring
2 sterling grove
2 solitary confinement
4 leyline of sanctity
3 rest in peace
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 elephant grass
3 energy field
1 sigil of the empty throne
3 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
4 enchantress's presence
1 green sun's zenith
1 helm of obedience
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 argothian enchantress
SB:
1 equipoise
1 sterling grove
2 carpet of flowers
1 rest in peace
1 seal of primordium
1 gaddock teeg
1 krosan grip
3 mindbreak trap
1 detention sphere
1 humility
1 elephant grass
1 stony silence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffinman
There are some narrow cards in your list and without knowing your general meta it's hard for me to comment.
In other news I did my first test stream tonight. http://www.twitch.tv/forbiddengrove
I'll try and fire it up again tomorrow night before I'm out of town for a week. Hope to see you all there.
Isn't GSZ's CMC 1?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
hey guys, so here is my current list I’ve been testing. I’ve been slowly working on this deck this last year or so (quietly lurking), originally from a classic enchantress build, but I honestly believe that this particular build is most sound over other enchantress variants.
By no mean’s am I an expert at this deck, but I do quite like to play it. Many of the lists and comments here have been extremely valuable. I’ve tried a few of lists from this and the original solitaire thread and this is my middle of the road interpretation of my primary helm-chant-rest lists.
I haven’t played any tournaments with this list yet (soon once I feel confident with the build) but in casual games it seems to work reasonably well and when practicing against goldfish can usually manage a t3-t4 solitary lock, t4-t5 helm kill. I feel a tad self conscious of where this particular list is so any feedback before I go embarrass myself in public is appreciated.
I would really love to see this deck reach a consistent optimized form that we can discuss as a concrete thing that addresses the vast majority of the meta. I still feel like I’m constantly rebuilding this list and it still has not settled into an optimal orientation.
The first 45 cards are relatively set, for me.Most the variance seems to be in the last 15 cards of what was formerly the enchantress’s toolbox.
I’m still searching for the way to make it more explosive and faster…
Apologies in advance for any typos.
Mana Base (20)
8 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
4 windswept heath
4 serra’s sanctum
2 forbidden orchard
The engine (12)
4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
3 Green sun zenith
1 Defense of the heart
Accelerants (13)
4 utopian sprawl
3 Wild growth
4 mirri’s guile
2 exploration
The “helm” (10)
1 Emrakul, the eons torn
2 Helm of obedience
3 rest in peace
3 solitary confinement
1 karmic justice
Flex Slots/toolbox (5)
1 oblivion ring
2 multani’s presence
1 sphere of saftey
1 enlightened tutor
1 Sigarda host of herons
Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of silence
2 elephant grass
2 oblivion ring
2 in the eye of chaos
1 wheel of sun and moon
3 abeyance
2 orim’s chant
1 gaddock teig
Noteworthy design features compared to other common lists
-1 green sun Zenith +1 Defense of the heart – I’ve been trying this lately and I quite like it, Usually GSZ ends up being a 3cmc so they can occupy a similar space, Defense of the heart can be amazing when it triggers and can be triggered off forbidden orchard which acts as a nice color fixer for splash colors.
-2 Abundant growth +2 Exploration – donno of this is correct, I do feel the effect early game of reduced cantrips, but late game exploration feels superior
4 Serra’s sanctum – I don’t understand why anyone would run any less than the maximum, this card is amazing, with exploration you can often play it multiple times enabling wonderfully abusive things.
+1 sigarda Host of herons – mid cost gsz target, keeps with shroud theme of deck and blanking removal, second target for Defense of the heart, good beat stick.
A few thoughts on many of the lists presented, I understand that there’s a variety of ways to approach this deck but I feel there are still core issues with the deck that should be decided upon before the deck can move forward.
I see many lists running 4 of utopian sprawl, 4 wild growth, 4 of abundant growth. And I’m not convinced as many growth effects as people are running are optimal to provide acceleration where it really matters.
This article may be dated, but I’m curious if it’s design wisdom may still be relevant and that the deck may be playing more growth effects then optimal, slots that may be better utilized as 1cmc enchantments. I also feel running too many growth effects may expose our mana base.
http://www.classicdojo.org/bou97/bou.970830etel.txt
I’m also curious of peoples rationalizations of cutting ESG from many of the lists. I know space is very tight in this list but I feel it improves the play order of growth effects. When comboing out it often enables additional 1 drop enchantments to continue digging for answers.
It enables turn 1 forest+ ESG → Argothian
T2 Forest + Growth + Rip → draw 2
A common starter without it is T1 forest → Mirri’s guile
T2 Draw Land + Growth → Argothian
which I don’t think is nearly as strong and wastes a growth and a guile before casting enchantress.
I’ve been trying to see if I can play without elephant grass instead focusing on starting the engine and locking with solitary confinement as soon as possible.
Could other cards act as our primary response to aggro? ex. Orim’s chant or defense of the heart? Chant would also give us options to protect our combo and lock pieces mid game, and could be potentially useful against combo if supported. Defense of the heart also offers another path to victory versus aggro/tempo.
Abeyance, Silence, and Orim’s chant – I’ve been testing these lately, curious if anyone has had any luck builds involving these cards. Perhaps serving in an early disruption role against a variety of decks and combo. Abeyance has nice synergy late game with mirri’s guile and fetch shuffle effects.
Lately I’ve been digging through gatherer looking for any little piece of tech we may have missed. Here's some curious cards/combos that I’ve been considering:
Multani’s presence + in the eye of chaos - as an answer to control, turns countering into card disadvantage. Late game turns all instants into cantrips, could potentially make certain instants playable in the deck. Could act as some build in combo/control hate, helps against counterbalance and chalice.
Eladamari’s vineyard + Orim's chant/abeyance-
crop rotation -> maze of ith potential answer to aggro/tempo, made less fragile by inclusion of Silence effects and exploration. Maze of ith + forest w. growth + Magus of candelabra → infinite mana in the combat phase though I’ve yet to find something optimally useful to do with it.
Magus of the candelabra- donno if he fits and will likely be killed but potentially useful to untap sanctum and as a 2 cmc gsz target.
Dryad arbor + Greater auramancy + growth effect – shrouds land, makes gsz for arbor more playable.
Abeyance/ Silence/ Orim’s chant – I’m unsure of which one (if any) would be best in the current meta
The Abeyance cantrip I think works with multiple guile and fetch lands – (guile for 3, Abeyance to draw, Fetch to shuffle, Guile for 3 again , draw)
Silence - best against leyline/shroud
Orim’s Chant - offers a potential answer to aggro (at least for a turn).
Scroll rack – Just a thought as a combo enabler, haven’t seen it proposed
Parallax Nexus – I’ve had this card a while and I get this feeling about it, -4 cards for 2 turns could be crippling, with acceleration it could come down t2 and hopefully buy us an extra 2 turns to combo/lock,. triggers with enchantress effects, continues to be useful in multiples, late game could blank an opponents hand to protect our combo, minimal color requirement. Very few enchantments can disrupt the hand in this way, does not require the engine to be running to be effective.
Feel free to explain to me why something doesn’t work in real life, and thanks again to all the peeps contributing to this deck.
In your hand, yes. While it's on the stack (After you cast it) it has the cmc of 1+x. So if you cast a GSZ on 2 to find an argothian, it's cmc 3 on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogan
Today i went 5-0-0 and with RIP/Helm Enchantress and got first place !
My list :
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Greem Sun's Zenith
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Windswept heath
3 Elefant Grass
4 Serra's Sanctum
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confiment
4 Wild Growth
3 Mirri's Guil
1 Gitaxean Probe
1 Emrakul ,the Aeons Torn
2 Exploration
1 Sterling Grove
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Karakas
11 Forest
1 Plains
SB:
3 Stony Silence
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Samcoty
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
1 Sterling Grove
First Round vs RUG Delver
I won the First and borded 1 Choke and 3 Carpet of Flowers
Second round was close but won it with Helm Rip
Second Round vs Mono black discard zombie ?
I had both rounds realy good hands with Elephant gras and Rip and won 2-0
Third round vs BURG Delver
I won the first round fast and boarded nothing
I had to mulligan 2 times and statred with Mirri's Guil ,Fetch ,Forest and Enchantress's Presence and lost :(
Round 3 was realy close and i finished him with me on 3 Life :cool:
fourth round vs Punishing Maverick
both matches where Pretty easy and I won after 5 Minutes.
fifth round vs BURN
First round I locked him out with Solitary Confiment.
Second round I hand Leyline on my start hand and won with 3 Life :rolleyes:
You don't have Sterling Grove? Who are you locking? Your confinement is a 3CMC enchantment. Abrupt Decay, Pridemage and bounce exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by octavius.lyra
The biggest brick in the deck, no way to shuffle it away. I wouldn't run more than 1 assuming you own Enlightened Tutor.Quote:
2 Helm of obedience
This card is awful. If it cantriped upon ETB maybe. You are looking for City of Solitude which stops all manner of counterspells. It also stops Vial trick, Rishidan Port, Fetching on your turn, activating top etc.Quote:
2 multani’s presence
I can get behind this a little. It's competing with Grass, O-Ring (as they can both help vs. Sneakshow), Moat I guess even Ghostly Prison. 5 is a little steep but it's a reasonable choice.Quote:
1 sphere of saftey
Abundant Growth is just really bad. Maybe if you are playing some 4 color abortion. It doesn't accelerate you at all and is just terrible. If you desperately desire a 9th or 10th aura to stick on a land play Trace of Abundance since you can stick it on Sanctum and make it port / wasteland proof.Quote:
-2 Abundant growth +2 Exploration – donno of this is correct, I do feel the effect early game of reduced cantrips, but late game exploration feels superior
Because you are playing a 20 land deck with no Brainstorm. You are leaning on Mirri's Guile but only run 4 fetchlands.Quote:
4 Serra’s sanctum – I don’t understand why anyone would run any less than the maximum, this card is amazing, with exploration you can often play it multiple times enabling wonderfully abusive things.
See above Adundant Growth is terrible.Quote:
I see many lists running 4 of utopian sprawl, 4 wild growth, 4 of abundant growth
ESG is terrible in this deck. Yes the dream of duress yourself forest enchantress exists but if they have force the have force. The plays you detail actually aren't good. The best opener for this deck in my experience isQuote:
I’m also curious of peoples rationalizations of cutting ESG from many of the lists. I know space is very tight in this list but I feel it improves the play order of growth effects. When comboing out it often enables additional 1 drop enchantments to continue digging for answers.
It enables turn 1 forest+ ESG → Argothian
T2 Forest + Growth + Rip → draw 2
A common starter without it is T1 forest → Mirri’s guile
T2 Draw Land + Growth → Argothian
Basic Forest -> Growth Effect. Go.
Land -> Enchantress and be able to pay for Daze. Enchantress resolves. Some G enchantment, Draw a Card. If they Daze it I could care fuck all since I cantripped and they Ice Stormed themselves.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. If they keep you off Growth effects I feel its really hard to play around.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Here’s my vanilla stock list, with nothing particularly risqué
Mana Base (20)
10 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
4 windswept heath
4 serra’s sanctum
The engine (12)
4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
4 green sun zenith
Accelerants (14)
4 utopian sprawl
4 Wild growth
4 mirri’s guile
2 exploration
helm (14)
2 elephant grass
2 solitary confinement
2 oblivion ring
3 rest in peace
1 karmic justice
1 wheel sun and moon
1 Emrakul, the eons torn
1 Helm of obedience
1 enlightened tutor
Sideboard (15)
4 leyline of sanctity
4 sterling grove
2 aura of silence
1 oblivion ring
1 Sigil of the empty throne
1 helm of obedience
1 gaddock teig
1 sigarda host of herons
It’s really more wrist control.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I have had that experience with other builds of not wanting it early game, it’s a definite tradeoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Noted, it’s been proposed previously. On some levels I agree with you, and it’s competing for slots where I’d add elephant grass.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Unfortunately the only 1 cmc green non creature enchantment in the game is Abundant growth, which we all know sucks…Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Presumably abeyance/chant/silence can serve the same function in the same capacity but also double in a disruptive role. City of solitude may be the better card,Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
In the eye of chaos could serve a similar role in a similar slot while also disrupting on the opponents turn.
Part of the wacky card choice of multani’s decree is an allowance to make silence/chant/abeyance more playable, and to help against early disruption from counters.
But hey what does anyone know, multani’s presence is probably crap right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Agreed, it’s a recent addition that I haven’t much tested. In the past I’ve run the 2nd 0 ring. I don’t care for the cost. They all seem prohibitively expensive. Someone suggested running Darkest hour as an amend to elephant grass, which sounds compelling, but that might require a 4 color abortion build…
Also agreed, which is why it’s been cut, primarily for that reason that it doesn’t directly provide any mana acceleration. I don’t think that’s its purpose. It helps provide initial card acceleration after landing an enchantress effect. It’s color fixing is secondary.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Interesting card, but I’m not jonesing for more land enchants. I was suggesting before, I think we may be running too many, as the advantage they provide on later turns (past the 1st turn opening) becomes less relevant with sanctum. I would consider the last 2 ‘land enchants’ to be occupied by exploration.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I wouldn’t try to protect sanctum, if the engine is running it should be replaced a turn later with a new one.
This build is leaning heavily on mirri’s guile, many of the builds here are running the full set. Presumably, there are also 6 shuffle effects though including, gsz, tutor, and emrakul, to draw out extra utility. Someone suggested running additional fetches to make the guiles more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Are you suggesting running additional fetches or dropping down to 3 or otherwise altering the mana base?
In the past I’ve run 3 with karakas in its slot.
Other lists have presumably run 4 successfully, what would need to change in order to make 4 possible? Exploration makes it plausible to play sanctum multiple times in a turn. We could always add brainstorm!
Sometimes really good cards and incredibly horrible cards are almost indistinguishable. Lion’s eye diamond? Eladamri’s Vineyard? Jackal Pup. It’s cut for the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
You’re right, for the vast majority of builds opening with growth is best and at present that is the default opening.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
forest -> growth. Go.
I’m not running ESG, but I do dream of T1 enchantress, and it does make it theoretically possible, if not problematic for other reasons. It’s sort of a gambit play but makes it possible to t1 enchantress unsoundly, or use you’re suggested opening but play two 2 cmc on turn 2. Or in that it suggested opening leaves an extra mana open if we try to play GSZ for three or enchantress presence. There may be occasions (like not playing against blue) where I’d rather open unsoundly on T1.
I get that it’s something that almost can’t be tinkered with, but I think it’s worth considering what it might look like if we did even if the end result is unsound.
I do think there are other novel ways the deck can open, from “weak “ position and still be playable. Occasionally, I find wacky things happen, that deviate from the typical strong opening but transpositionally reach the same state by t4/t5.
Just me put it well. The core issue with is speed, the fundamental turn of enchantress is too slow, and there is discontinuity of tempo between playing our disruptive enchantments and ramping to 2-enchantress effects, simultaneously.
Thanks for your comments! I’ll keep you posted on helm-chant-aborted-fetus-baby-rest build develops. Hopefully, I’ll brainstorm some idea’s to help it overcome its crippling down syndrome, or you know, just drop it in a dumpster and go play a real deck or whatever (SnS is on the up and up right?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Just me
I also have a highly experimental build in the works, but here’s the kicker is instead of Helm of Obedience I’ve replaced it with Sigil of the empty throne, and rest in peace with replenish. I’ve got a good feeling about this…
On the real, thank you.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13103
here is the list :)