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Thanks for the reply. I figured there had to be a good reason for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
What are your thoughts on the sideboard? Has anything changed since you've last shared it? I love Whipflare and am actually running 4 at the moment, it usually functions as a one-sided Wrath against the decks where you board it in.
Hi all,
I just picked up Shardless BUG about a week ago and took it to a small local tournament with 26 players which I won. That was the reason for me to take it to the BoM last week, where things went reasonably well. A friend of mine picked it up as well and went top 8 with it in a 400+ trial tournament. I don't have his exact list so I won't be able to post that.
However, on saturday I won the trial for BoM 8 with over 250 competitors and this was the list I played then.
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gilded Drake
1 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
I played the following rounds:
1: BUG Delver (2-0) 1-0
2: BUG Delver (2-0) 2-0
3: Sneaky Show (2-1) 3-0
4: Omni-Tell (2-0) 4-0
5: RUG Delver (2-0) 5-0
6: RUG Delver (2-1) 6-0
7: BUG Delver (2-1) 7-0
8: ANT (2-0) 8-0
9: Elves (1-2) 8-1
I really like the current list and wouldn't change a thing at the moment. The sideboard especially is satisfying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martijnend
I like your current list, but I'm surprised that you don't play any Pernicious Deed among the total 75. Is there any specific reason for not playing any of them? Or you just ran out of free spots?
PD. Contratz on your success!
Hello,
I'm the guy who travelled to BOM with Martijn and finished 8th on Thursdays 420 man 10-round Legacy trial. Martijn, Pierre Sommen and I made sure that Shardless BUG top 8'd the three biggest Legacy events this week!
I didn't make any notes and played a lot of Legacy this week, so I'm not able to write a report. But with some thinking I managed to write down my wins/losses:
Wins (random order): OmniDream, Team America, RUG Tempo, Jund, 2x ANT, TES, Sneak Attack
Losses:
5th round: Elves (0-2 run over.. I'll might try the Whipflare tech because Merfolk scares me too),
9th round: ANT (1-2, due to my own mistake.. He used Tendrills with storm count 3 after I tapped out for a Strix because I thought I had already won.. He only had 4 Goblins, 10 life and 2 cards left versus my board full of creatures. I had Deathrite Shaman active and creatures in the gy to gain enough life if I just relaxed, and even had a Nihil Spellbomb to prevent him from flashbacking Cabal Therapy before taking his turn. Ow, and I even brainstormed a Thoughtseize back on top! So yeah, 3 options: Deathrite +2 life, activate Nihil Spellbomb to prevent 1 storm or cast Thoughtseize to rip a keycard and I preferred to play a 1/1 flyer.. It was a pity to miss a top 4 finish this way (more duals and an extra bye), but I guess everyone will agree that 10 rounds of Legacy is just exhausting!)
My list:
Maindeck
4# Deathrite Shaman
4# Tarmogoyf
4# Shardless Agent
2# Baleful Strix
4# Ancestral Vision
4# Brainstorm
4# Abrupt Decay
3# Force of Will
3# Hymn to Tourach
2# Thoughtseize
1# Maelstrom Pulse
3# Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4# Wasteland
3# Polluted Delta
3# Misty Rainforest
3# Verdant Catacombs
4# Underground Sea
2# Tropical Island
2# Bayou
1# Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
2# Thoughtseize
1# Hymn to Tourach
1# Maelstrom Pulse
1# Pernicious Deed
1# Golgari Charm
2# Phyrexian Revoker
2# Liliana of the Veil
3# Nihil Spellbomb
1# Baleful Strix
1# Life from the Loam
Phyrexian Revoker was a boss vs Sneak Attack and Storm, Nihil Spellbomb helped me win 4 out of 5 ANT matches, 4 Wasteland was nice and I'm happy with only 3 FOW (blue count is low). The day before I still played with 2 Creeping Tar-Pit, but I never activated it :P! Golgari Charm helped me destroy a lot of permanents (including white Leylnes) and realy helped versus Death and Taxes. I could cut 1 sea for 1 Badlands and cut Deed, Charm and another card from the sideboard to include 3 Whipflare to fight Elves, Merfolk, Death and Taxes and other matchups, but I'm not sure yet!
Just ask if you have some questions,
Tim
Thanks, Kanadell!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadell~
There are two reasons for the absence of Pernicious Deed. The first is that I can't think of any negative matchup in which Deed would be a winner, where Golgari Charm and Maelstrom Pulse wouldn't do exactly the same. I found the most difficult matchups to be Elves and Death and Taxes. Against both Golgari Charm is devastating. The second reason is that Deed is very mana-intensive. Three plus x mana is quite a lot for the deck to handle. Another reason, though slightly less important, is that Deed cannot be cascaded into with Shardless Agent.
The only spot in the sideboard that remains a question is the Gilded Drake, but I really wanted another answer to Sneak & Show. I haven't used it's effect once, but I have been able to lock my opponent down with Revoker (Sneak Attack) on the board and Gilded Drake in hand twice.
I thought a while about Whipflare and understand that it has been used to good effect, but decided against it. The manabase is already very greedy and I thought it would not be a good idea to stretch it even further by adding red duals.
Hope this helps,
Martijn
I would image it is because deed kills all of your non-planeswalker permanents and is rather slow. Golgari Charm does most of what you want deed for and it does it earlier in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadell~
Edit: I should finish reading the thread before I reply...martijn covered everything I wanted to say in greater detail than I provided.
Has anyone else tried Sylvan Library? I have really been enjoying a singleton in the main deck.
1) It is great to cascade into against no aggro decks
2) It is great at setting up cascades.
For reference here is my current list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sylvan Library
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Mistry Rainforst
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Nihil Spell bomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
Seems extremely similar to what martijnend is working. I am mostly just curious about Sylvan Library...
Has anyone had tried this deck without Ancestral Vision? I have seen people claiming success with this style of deck here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...406385&page=31
This deck without Ancestral Visions is not "this" deck. Ancestral Visions is one of the defining features of this deck that that distinguishes it from BUG control and BUG tempo. But to answer your question, yes BUG tempo and to a lesser extent BUG control have had varying degrees of success in the past (evidenced by the fact that all three were in the DTB forums for part of the month of April). Though, I would be willing to bet that presently the shardless variant of BUG is the best performing given the state of the meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSerif
I dont know if its a differnt deck, it would just rely on the other BUG staples to build CA. But that is not important though. I'm just not sure if Visions so good with cascade that it offset the negatives of top decking it in mid/late game. It seems that shardless + other BUG staples are good enough, and less cumbersome.
The problem with playing shardless agent without ancenstral visions is that you lose the amazing power of cascading into 3 extra cards. What do you propose replacing visions with?Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSerif
(1) counterspells (e.g. spell pierce), those are not so good to cascade into.
(2a) Additional removal (e.g disfigure) sometimes the opponent doesn't have any creatures in play
(2b) Burn, that is really what Jund is
(3) more discard (hymn and thoughtseize) sometimes in the late game the opponent doesn't have any cards in hard
(4) more creatures, I guess this has the most potential as it is the least situational. Stoneforge mystic and dark confidant are the only creatures I would really want to cascade into. Stoneforge is white and perhaps could be good in a shardless bant type deck. Regarding Bob, I think the deck has too high of a converted mana cost and too little deck manipulation (e.g. ponder or SDT) to minimize the damage of drawing cards. Furthermore, I don't think the deck has enough protection (e.g. no daze or pierce) for dark conficant to stick around long enough to to have an impact on the game.
The only almost universally good thing to cascade into is card draw so that you can draw your more situational cards and play the ones that are relevant for the given game state. Ancestral visions count as part removal, part disruption, part creature, part land resulting in a more consistent game plan. I think the power of shardless BUG lies in the synergy between the two cards not the purely additive power of the two cards as individuals. As such, I would be surprised to see widespread success of shardless agent without ancestral visions in a midrange or control deck.
N.B. Top decking a visions late game is not the worst as you can put it back with jace or brainstorm (either for a cascade or a shuffle effect), and with the sylvan library that I am proposing you can float it on top to hit with cascade.
Hey,
Long time reader, first time poster.
What do you guys think about the pros and cons of Liliana vs. Jace in the context of Shardless BUG?
Pros:Quote:
Originally Posted by newsalor
- Liliana vs. Jace would sell lots of comics and would be some hot planeswalker on planeswalker conflict. Who will win - man of many emotions or slut tits?
Cons:
- Liliana would spray her veil all over Jace and then he would be dark and veiny like Garruk, the Veil-Cursed. Not a good long-term plan if he wants to get a real job.
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor, better than all
Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSerif
I'm the one playing without Ancestral Visions (yeah, the one to blame :P).
Honestly, this deck is a beast against other midrage, aggro and some combo decks. As there aren't many control decks in my meta, I often don't "have the time" to set up Ancestral Visions or to wait until turn 5 to resolve it and make profit of it. This is: It tends to arrive late, when I'm far behind or when the cards can't give me much.
That's why I play with 4x Thoughtseize, so I can remove the key threats and get the most of my CMC3 cards. Liliana is in my 60 to increase the preassure and make sure I have board control or tear appart their last cards in hand.
I get that Disfigure seems weird, but in my meta, removing a T1 Shaman (which is played by the 45% of the field) wins you games. I want my shaman to be realiable, I count on him for my CMC 3 spells, thats why mine has to stay and the others need to die. I can kill those Goblin guides, Mother of runes, Stoneforges and Delvers that can ruin my dayby pressing me too much. I want to slow the other decks so they can't play Jace (the main issue) or remove it from his hand before it ever sees play (Thoughtseize, Liliana, Pulse) and if it's able to be on the board, I want it to be unable to decide the match, as it will already be on my favor.
Probably, if I had the 3rd Jace, I would give it a chance and go the Whipflare route and play Visions, and I'd probably see that you can also win without needing that board dominance, but by now I made my deck a bit more aggressive than the most you see in this thread as I also have Liliana and Jitte in the 60 maindeck cards.
It's a way to go, it's taste and personal preference, but it's specially meta and adaptation. And it works quite well, at least for me.
Yes, I use Thoughtseize and Baleful Strix over Hymn to Tourach and Ancestral Visions and feel the deck is better suited to win without resolving Shardless Agent and has a significantly better curve. I don't think you need the "money flips" off of Hymn and Ancestral as much as you need all around reliable cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSerif
I do play against a ton of Goblins tho', which is why I hate Hymn pretty hard.
I've never liked Hymn in this deck to start with. You just lose so much tempo against anything that isn't die-hard control. Even against non-blue control like NicFit, it kinda sucks. I'd play Thoughtseize over it any day of the week. Shardless Bug doesn't lose becaus of card advantage but because of inability to make use of card advantage aka tempo.
@Final Fortune: +1, We do similar tactics.
I'd say that this deck wins though card quality and the bit of CA that the tools it has can provide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I want to clarify a point that even creates a contradiction in your words (I'm not here to spot the errors, just to clarify ideas, explaining them helps me getting them too ^^).
Card Advantage doesn't mean Tempo.
That being said, you are in a serious Cards Disadvantage if you have cards in hand that you can't use or that mean nothing with the state of the board at that moment.
Card advantage doesn't mean you are winning, imho. You may be winning if you are able to capitalize that advantage, but
- getting more cards in hand that don't turn a game you are losing,
- or that don't secure a game you are winning,
- or ripping out random cards in opponents hands so you have more than him in yours
All these points don't make you win (in a "fair deck", ignore combo by now). Card advantage doesn't mean you'll have the solution you are waiting for when you need it.
Maybe I tend to play this deck more "tempoish", by gaining board presence and killing my opponent before he can stabilize and find a solution. I do this because I feel we don't have these kind of solutions ourselves, it's not a hard Control Deck. That's why I priorize Card Quality over Card Advantage (although Strix, Walkers and Shardless are Card Advantage by themselves), and this is why I don't feel bad having so much removal in G1: I know I can trade early game because I'll get more value of the cards I'll draw, but not enough to lock the game.
My idea while playing this is being the control deck agains aggro, and being the aggro deck agains hard control.
- Vs Aggro, I'll trade 1v1 until my 2v1 and card quality let me stabilize, and I'll win the game from then.
- Against control, I'll make my cards matter, put the opponent in a clock and remove his "comeback" cards. My 2v1 will make his control tools less effective.
- Against Combo, it's a completely different story, but I still have a chance.
I hope my ideas are clear. That's why I've been playing a different kind of deck (without Visions, for example). At least I know where I am and what my aims are, so I chose what I think are the best tools for this strategy.
@Razorwind: the thought of Sylvan Library is an interesting one. I don't know what I'd cut for it though. It's hard to cut an answer or threat for it, since we are low on them as it is. And as for the CA it provides, the cards we already have seem better in most situations. How does Library work for you?
The decks without Ancestral Visions really aren't the same deck. The list looks far more like a midrange-control deck. I agree that AV sometimes is an empty topdeck, but the pros of the card far exceed that downside. I actually win quite a lot of matches with the help of AV without cascading into it. Just suspending it on turn 1 and Hymning your opponent on turn 2 or 3 will gain you such an advantage that it will very hard for your opponent to pull back.
@JMLL, can you tell me why there are no Ponders in the list without AV?
Doesn't Dread of Night just beat every W/x thalia deck, and also take care of any Lingering Souls problems?
My plan against creature decks like Merfolk, Goblins, and (oddly) Elves would be to just sideboard into mono-removal.deck. Vs. combo I like Liliana, but i don't really care for more discard; I'd rather do as some have suggested and bring in a bunch of counters, but I'd keep the discard I already have.
Any slots I had against control would also double as either anti-creature or anti-combo cards.
Dread of Night is great when it applies, but maybe Engineered Plague is better in the SB? Sure it costs 2 more, but it can also be brought in verus Goblins, Merfolk and Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai