[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

Why don't you play Primeval Titan?

Not to sound biased, but it is probably the strongest card in a 12-post deck. It gains you insane amounts of life through Glimmerpost/Vesuva shenanigans and greatly accelerates the deck so you can play threats faster.

You might say that Crop Rotation does all that... what it doesn't do is provide you a tempo advantage because you never gain additional lands with Crop Rot, but you do with Primeval Titan.

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I've tried playing PrimeTime, but kept cutting them for cheaper digging and tutoring. I find PrimeTime too clunky without running S&T, and I prefer to stay mono-green (and really more MUD-oriented at that). I can only reliably produce GG if I have a Candelabra in play, at which point I'd usually rather just cast All Is Dust and clear the board.

While Crop Rotation doesn't net you a land, the fact that it's an instant more than makes up for it. You can use it in response to a Wasteland, to blow out Dredge with Bojuka Bog, answer an attacker with Maze of Ith, surprise a Tendrils player with Glimmerpost, etc.

Since folks are asking for builds. This is what I'm testing at the moment:

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

It is specifically for the Junk/BuG/RuG meta.

No Needles. Interesting.

Because everyone of the decks you listed runs Wasteland, care to specify?

@SBGpinas - Thanks so much! Your explanations really help!

@Tonberryx - At the risk of being laughed out of the room, I will mention that I've considered running 4 Tarmogoys in the main deck. In Rock Lee's 25NOV12 build, I was going to run them in the Brainstorm and All is Dust slots (the 25NOV12 build ran 2 Brainstorms and 2 All is Dust. I was going to move the All is Dust to the sideboard to fight decks like Enchantress and Elves). I figured Tarmogoyf was a solid two drop, it gave us some protection vs. aggro decks and it gave us a clock vs. combo decks. I never tested this build, but it was something I seriously considered.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I've concluded that TheBoozeCube has been trolling this deck for months now. He posts no results, has a Borat Avatar, and insists on the Mono-Green version being superior despite all logic and results to the contrary. See the Development thread for pages and pages of his attention seeking.



In my opinion the only time you would run Tabernacle on the main would be if your meta has copious amounts of Dredge, Affinity, and Storm combo. A 4th Show & Tell is for if there are gads of RUG, with minimal Omnishow. These two metas can overlap, but I find it unlikely, since Rug beats two of the prior three.

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We can agree to disagree. I've never said the mono-green version is "superior". I think it has better matchups against certain archetypes than UG (especially vs tempo decks), while having worse matchups against other archetypes (especially vs combo). I don't post results because I have neither the time nor the interest to write a tournament reports for random Thursday night Legacy (I usually go 4-0 or 3-1). If you don't want people to post or discuss lists that aren't yours (or variations on yours), then come out and say so. I don't have a problem with UG lists that run S&T; it's a solid deck that puts up results. I do, however, think the 12 Post archetype is broader than that. Stoneblade has UW, Esper, BW, and even Junk builds. "Logic" does not demand a particular 75 even in the same archetype.

And what's wrong with Borat?

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

And what's wrong with Borat?

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He doesn't make half the sexytime that PrimeTime does.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

No Needles. Interesting.

Because everyone of the decks you listed runs Wasteland, care to specify?

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The decks with recursion all run multiple ways of dealing with needle (discard/abrupt decay). I've been tallying in the back of my mind the number of times that Pithing needle stopped a wasteland from being used on me over the last 4 weeks. And the number was 3 over 12 complete events. If they have one played, they respond with it, if they haven't played it yet, they cantrip it back or abrupt decay it.

I'm testing a no-answers build, and then testing a surgicals somewhere in the 75 build.

Oh man. Pongify.... Good find. I really wasn't liking Beast Within. I've been testing surgicals my own self, with fairly decent results but finding room for it is tricky, so I'm not sure if I want to cut anything for a card that doesn't do anything until my opponent has already hosed me once.
I noticed you're rocking Trinishpere in the SB. What are your thoughts so far on it? I'm really enjoying how it messes with the scads of mana-efficient tempo-aggro decks.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

You play to survive the first few turns, and then late game you have the biggest bombs you could ever want. It is like a normal control deck, except instead of slamming a 4 mana Jace, you have a 15 mana win the game single card combo.

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Most control decks have a myriad of tools which enable them to survive the first few turns - targeted removal such as StP; cheap, efficient board sweepers such as Terminusl creatures that control the ground game such as Batterskull; counterspells such as Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell. What does this have outside of Repeal, which is just a cantripping bounce spell, or Crop Rotation->Glacial Chasm, which is terrible card disadvantage for a stalling tactic that can be circumvented with widely played land destruction? Some of these builds will main-deck All is Dust, which is a start, but a slow start.

And then, of course, because the inevitability arrives slowly in this deck - more slowly than most combo decks - what does it have to interact with the stack vs. non-aggro decks? If this decks' ability to control aggro is limited to four cantripping bounce spells and a heavily card-disadvantaged tutor for a land, and maybe a couple of board sweepers, it is even more barren in terms of its ability to control the stack vs. combo decks. The game-plan vs. combo appears to be: lose g1, then sideboard in some Mindbreak Trap and/or Flusterstorm in g2 and g3 and hope it's enough? That might win some matches vs. Storm combo, but it basically leaves you open to any other random combo deck that crops up. And auto-losing g1 to Storm itself does not actually make your Storm matchup as a whole all that spectacular, because even Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm will not be enough to stop Storm from stealing 1 of 2 games through that wall of hate.

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Originally Posted by MGB

Most control decks have a myriad of tools which enable them to survive the first few turns - targeted removal such as StP; cheap, efficient board sweepers such as Terminusl creatures that control the ground game such as Batterskull; counterspells such as Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell. What does this have outside of Repeal, which is just a cantripping bounce spell, or Crop Rotation->Glacial Chasm, which is terrible card disadvantage for a stalling tactic that can be circumvented with widely played land destruction? Some of these builds will main-deck All is Dust, which is a start, but a slow start.

And then, of course, because the inevitability arrives slowly in this deck - more slowly than most combo decks - what does it have to interact with the stack vs. non-aggro decks? If this decks' ability to control aggro is limited to four cantripping bounce spells and a heavily card-disadvantaged tutor for a land, and maybe a couple of board sweepers, it is even more barren in terms of its ability to control the stack vs. combo decks. The game-plan vs. combo appears to be: lose g1, then sideboard in some Mindbreak Trap and/or Flusterstorm in g2 and g3 and hope it's enough? That might win some matches vs. Storm combo, but it basically leaves you open to any other random combo deck that crops up. And auto-losing g1 to Storm itself does not actually make your Storm matchup as a whole all that spectacular, because even Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm will not be enough to stop Storm from stealing 1 of 2 games through that wall of hate.

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This all reeks of lack of testing. My duty in this thread isn't to sell people on playing the deck. My role is to answer questions of assertive persons who have questions from their own experience & testing related to the deck.

Your arguments about comparable tempo-countering cards in u/w miracles and this deck are weak at best, shows a complete lack of understanding about how Turbo Eldrazi fights the board, and simply present an outside-looking-in argument. You ignore that this deck's turn 3 play easily negates early tempo loss, and then sideboards exclusively against decks that don't give you until turn three. Please do some testing, less guttural inferencing, and reading of the two threads before placing judgment or lack thereof.

@MGB

Comparing Turbo Eldrazi to control decks like Stoneblade and Miracles is not a sound comparison.

If anything, Turbo Eldrazi should be compared to other ramp-control decks like UR Tron or BG Death Cloud, where you spend the first few turns ramping up, stealing tempo and basically stalling your opponent until you get to your business spells (which in this deck, happens as early as turn 3).

Yes, All is Dust is not the fastest board sweeper in the game, but so isn't Death Cloud, and that was played extensively back in the day. Yes, you don't have a lot of permanent answers, just tempo plays and stall effects, but how is that a bad thing, honestly? Does it really matter in the end when the Flying Spaghetti Monster is eating your opponent and his board alive?

You lose to combo? Yes it's an uphill battle Game 1, but in Game 2 and 3, you board in anywhere between 10-13 cards from your sideboard against them. Yes, they can still steal wins, but in a meta full of decks like Miracles, RUG, Maverick and other tempo/control decks, I'd take my chances.

Bottom line is that this is a meta-choice. If your field is full of storm and aggro, then you should be playing a different deck altogether anyway. Turbo Eldrazi eats Miracles for breakfast, arguably the most popular deck in the format right now. I fail to see why a deck that auto-wins against the most popular deck would be a bad meta call.

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Originally Posted by SBGpinas

@MGB

Comparing Turbo Eldrazi to control decks like Stoneblade and Miracles is not a sound comparison.

If anything, Turbo Eldrazi should be compared to other ramp-control decks like UR Tron or BG Death Cloud, where you spend the first few turns ramping up, stealing tempo and basically stalling your opponent until you get to your business spells (which in this deck, happens as early as turn 3).

Yes, All is Dust is not the fastest board sweeper in the game, but so isn't Death Cloud, and that was played extensively back in the day. Yes, you don't have a lot of permanent answers, just tempo plays and stall effects, but how is that a bad thing, honestly? Does it really matter in the end when the Flying Spaghetti Monster is eating your opponent and his board alive?

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All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.

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You lose to combo? Yes it's an uphill battle Game 1, but in Game 2 and 3, you board in anywhere between 10-13 cards from your sideboard against them. Yes, they can still steal wins, but in a meta full of decks like Miracles, RUG, Maverick and other tempo/control decks, I'd take my chances.

Bottom line is that this is a meta-choice. If your field is full of storm and aggro, then you should be playing a different deck altogether anyway. Turbo Eldrazi eats Miracles for breakfast, arguably the most popular deck in the format right now. I fail to see why a deck that auto-wins against the most popular deck would be a bad meta call.

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Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

@MGB

It would be great if you can say something useful for the thread and not argue something that is irrelevant and useless. If you don't like the deck don't play it, meanwhile we'll be enjoying our 12-post deck. Thank You very much! In Europe, 12-post has top 1'd and top 8'd the past 2 tournaments which is actually the home of storm decks if you must know.

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Originally Posted by MGB

All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.




Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

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Well, to be honest, I think your opinion has very little merit. 12-Post decks have top-16'd at at least three of the last six SCG Opens, has put up enough results in Europe to make it a hatable deck like Maverick and is fairly consistent for a ramp deck in Legacy. Yes, it has some difficult matchups, but it's definitely a viable archetype in a good percentage of metagames. It isn't so much a Control deck as a Synergy deck - most, if not all, of the cards play well together.

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Originally Posted by MGB

All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.

Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

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Thanks for keeping your arguments on the point since this can clearly help improvement and show weaknesses and strengths.
Please add facts to your arguments so this stays on topic?

First of all, thanks for your insights.

Second it seems we all agree to disagree with you about the performance of 12 Post.
While all of us agree with your assessment that there are more critical decision points while playing this deck
as compared to ... RUG, Stoneblade we are aware of this fact and do not agree with the assessment that this
can be relegated to the "power level" of decks but to the learning curve of said decks.
After all - if playing TES/ ANT/ Tide would be so easy - more people would flock to Storm.

If you want to compare "raw power" as you called it you have to check deck synergies and each singular card.
I do understand your point but your statement is very single minded and not really helpful since your point of
few is very specific.

For comparison: Check the Gate, Pox heck even Burn.
Each of those cards can "overpower" most of the other cards played on a 1-1 bases since even most blue spells
are only situational relevant. Still these decks attract only a specific kind of people and only show up as blimps
on the radar because of the low percentage of played decks and their problems with Storm and Rogues.
Do those decks win tourneys? Except from Burn those decks almost never show up unless one is taking an
educated guess on a meta and tries to prey on it. Or has a dedicated followership like 12Post.

I agree that this deck has very few "Wow"-moments while going through the lists.
Same goes for Stormdecks or Mav btw (in my opinion).

While I am currently not a 12Post tournament player (although I extensively test it online and when meeting for testing) I might shed some light here.

Please allow for free quotes (e.g. will keep the spirit of your argument not the wording) If I misread your arguments please let me know.

• 1. "This deck plays tempo games therefor it is no control deck."
  I agree. This is not a control deck but a ramp deck.
  Since both play similiarly and most people tend to know control deck, this is a comparison made in an effort to pass along the
  style of play rather than the type.
  If I (imho) would have to place this deck in any category and wouldn't be allowed to create a new one it
  would be placed in the [i]combo/ control[/b] area though.
  
  Reasoning: This deck wins by controlling your opponents board options (other tools, similiar approach) like
  UW Miracle (most common tools: Terminus, CB, Clique, StP, counter suite),
  UW RiP (most common tools: Poryphyr Node, CB, Detention Sphere, Energy Field, RiP, counter suite)
  RUG (most common tools: counter suite, stifle)
  BUG (most common tools: discard, counter suite, Decay)
  NicFit (Decay, Witness, Deed, Pulse, Vindicate)
  .....
  12 Post (Elephant Grass, Crop Rotation, Repeal, Chasm, Bog, Needles, All is Dust)
  
  Please note that several of those tools deployed are simple "tempo plays" (Stifle, Node, Clique, SCM) which are deployed to advance your own agenda.
  
  I selected the "combo" approach too since this deck tends to deploy either Eye of Ugin singularly (tutoring it up if no "Old One" care to come on his own)
  or with added S&T support. All of this tutoring/ "cheating" are clear indications of combo.
  Other decks falling into this category: Tide, UW RiP, Omnishow, Reanimator
  
  If not please clarify the definition?
  
• 2. "Inevitability is of no consequence if you are too slow."
  Once more I agree.
  Since this deck is not being run vs a stonewall on a kitchen table who can't do squat, you need the tools to do the job.
  This deck tends to manipulate the boardstate to reach a set goal: deploying Fatso(s) your opponent can't handle.
  Tools for the job: Elephant Grass, Drop of Honey, Repeal, Needle, SB.
  (Personally I would like to see a recursion engine like Witness/ Repeal/ Tool Land but I can't find the space either)
  
• 3. "This is no top tier deck"
  As a matter of fact it isn't.
  Decks that can't persistently beat the crap out of any other deck on the floor in quantically superior numbers aren't.
  Now I know this is awefully close to the definition to DTB but it is a fact. On the other hand, this deck can beat the crap out of any other deck
  if given the chance to do it. Also the pilot is/ can be crucial to the victory.
  All one needs is
  - the tools to do the job (md & sb)
  - the will to take on unfavourable match ups (stack based combo)
  - a low(er) percentage of variance (then most other decks)
  
• 4. "Slowest combo deck in format"
  Assuming gold fishes, you might be right that this deck is/ can be considered slow. My avg. "business turn" is around 4/5 (about equally matched, 20 games, not current list).
  This sets it on par with various combo decks I tried and played in the past including Painted Stone, various versions of Tide, Enchantress (Lock and Combo).
  Checking the current list of DTB, I find one (!) Aggro/ Control-Deck(Goblin) capable of beating this timing - assuming goldfishes again ofc - with a "good" hand.
  All ofter tests indicate an avg. turn 5/6+ clock of aggro decks.
  Granted I playtest Netlists since I am too bored to sleave up RUG(didn't include NO RUG), BUG(Tempo) or Esperblade (10 games each).
  
  So it seems that - when goldfishing everything is "just in time" ?
  
• 5. "This is not on the same power level then other established decks"
  Well... yes and no. Let me exaggerate.
  I - like most people - used to have a tribal phase (mine being tree huggin' elves!(and I am still proud owner of Elves! and NO Elves)).
  During this phase we usually realize that we can either play only "good stuff" or use synergies to strengthen "strong stuff" to reach that
  power level. What this deck tries to achieve is gaining the edge by deploying "good stuff" and using "strong stuff" to its benefit while staying
  inside pre-defined construction margins.
  So "yes" this is no "5c goodstuff control"-deck.
  "No" because you have a lot of decks playing singular power cards in tandem with "booster cards".
  
• 6. "You have a smaller margin of error then DTBs"
  *cough* First of all, this isn't a DTB.
  
  It's an established archetype, mostly promoted by singular and driven pilots (anyone care to remember Naz's NO Elves? Bryant's TES ?).
  Secondly while I clearly admit that decks like RUG have a lower learning curve I have stumbled with the deck when "it" tried to dictate other
  plays then the boardstate would dicate (anecdotal facts), even my current tournament deck (Reanimator) has a smaller margin of error then most
  pilot care to admit. Since you are usually given only "one shot" to do it right, the hand, timing and right target selections are crucial (not "only" anecdotal).
  This margin of error gets larger, the longer you happen to play a deck since you become more aquainted with it's intricate mechanisms and
  design advantages (and flaws) aka getting more experience.

Regards,
Matt

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Originally Posted by blindspotxxx

@MGB

It would be great if you can say something useful for the thread and not argue something that is irrelevant and useless. If you don't like the deck don't play it, meanwhile we'll be enjoying our 12-post deck. Thank You very much! In Europe, 12-post has top 1'd and top 8'd the past 2 tournaments which is actually the home of storm decks if you must know.

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Care to eloborate which relevant tournaments where top'ed?

I do not want to contradict you, simply looking for access to your information (URL.s would be most convenient)

Also note that I found some of his arguments(MGBs) quite insightful since he looks at this deck critically and tries to use facts and thus generates progress.
I can transfer some of his feelings (some of Rock's changes feel clanky to me too, so I tend to stick to one or two older lists unless I like the "newer" one)
since this gut feeling is the thing drawing us to specific play styles/ behaviours/ decks.

You being emotional doesn't really help much unless his intentions would be trolling which is generally done less intelligently.

All the best,
Matt

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

Well, to be honest, I think your opinion has very little merit. 12-Post decks have top-16'd at at least three of the last six SCG Opens, has put up enough results in Europe to make it a hatable deck like Maverick and is fairly consistent for a ramp deck in Legacy. Yes, it has some difficult matchups, but it's definitely a viable archetype in a good percentage of metagames. It isn't so much a Control deck as a Synergy deck - most, if not all, of the cards play well together.

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Actually this deck is currently quite nicely placed in the german meta if you manage to handle those tempo decks.

All you really need is an efficient way to wage war on Storm that is temper proof.
Thus far an older list of Rock's or a newer sideboard with a combination of Flusterstorm and Mind Break Traps are
working wonders (I still dislike the MU though due to "Abdul, the dead Terrorist" aka "Silence!"
and fraggin' discard with perfect information (Thanks to WotC's brainchild Gitaxian Probe) -.- ).

@LurkingMatt

Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better...

And to answer your question, here are 2 recent events in Europe where Turbo Eldrazi won:

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...jCce-LVZ5yFG8Q

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...uBODE3_rPMpm3g

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

As has been mentioned Ad Nauseam, this is the hardest deck to play in Legacy.

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I think you're forgetting about DDFT ;)

In what kind of meta is Trinket Mage good? I have been thinking of trying -1 Pithing Needle and possibly -1 Expedition Map to add 1-2 Mages to the deck, it would be nice to have a way to search up my Candelabra since i only own 1.
I Know you have tested the card so i would like to know what you think about it.

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Originally Posted by zathe922

In what kind of meta is Trinket Mage good? I have been thinking of trying -1 Pithing Needle and possibly -1 Expedition Map to add 1-2 Mages to the deck, it would be nice to have a way to search up my Candelabra since i only own 1.
I Know you have tested the card so i would like to know what you think about it.

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One where stifle is not played, which unfortunately means a meta without RUG, one which we are not in at this time. I played Trinket Mage in the deck when Merfolk and stoneblade were everywhere. It was redonko, but once RUG started hopping up, it quickly became a very good way of wasting our turn 3-4 pivotal play and just barely not making it there.

If Junk & Bug becomes big enough, then I'll see Trinket Mage play again. In the current build he would replace Show & Tell's spot, which is a tall order.