[Deck] UWR Delver

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Originally Posted by Whippoorwill

Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

61 Cards total

My sideboard was about 2/3 the same as Gerard's but with a few changes for my meta.

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear//Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest In Peace
1 Surgical Extraction

..................

As for changes I plan to try/do:
-Change one of the Tundras to the 4th Volcanic.
-Cutting Clique or at least moving it to the board. The one game I remember drawing it, it seemed like a win more card.
-Cutting 1 Daze, 1 Stifle and adding Probes or maybe Spell Snares. Likely Probe due to it being a free spell for Pyromancer.
-Potentially moving Lavamancer to the side.
-I'm giving thought to being able to run Blood Moon from the Board since it wrecks so many decks in the current meta. And with Pyromancer over Stoneforge I'm less dependent on white.

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I'm working on a list that's pretty similar:

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures (12)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (29)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
1 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Mutagenic Growth

Sideboard (15)
1 Rest in Peace
2 Gut Shot
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Wear/Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast

The Mutagenic Growth is sweet and has huge blowout potential since nobody expects it. I'm not sure about the split between Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Gut Shot. I kind of want 2 Snares, a main deck Pierce, and a maindeck Gut Shot, as well as a 3rd Ponder and 3rd Probe... obviously can't have it all, and I've yet to figure out which combination I'm most comfortable with.

Love the look of this deck. That is the direction I was thinking of as well, making white the splash rather than the red and keeping ol' Snappy in there.

What do you plan on doing against Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks that don't use fetches to Stifle? Just count on countering them?

I am now seeing all of these lists featuring Young Pyromancer, what does he do that was lacking with the SFM package?

Stoneforge Mystic gives you game against decks that tempo decks have no business beating (e.g. Shardless BUG). It's attrition power is amazing in a tempo deck and I would definitely not cut it unless you want to go in a completely different direction.

That being said, I find one major problem with the deck is its inability to present a clock if you don't have a Delver in play. Grim Lavamancer only has so many shots. I would maybe go back up to 3 Geists and add an Elspeth in the board to complement them (jumping Geists are pretty insane).

ThoughtXriot you can have it all, all of the things you wished you had and more, simply cut force of will. All i'm saying.

The card has been seen as a necessary evil for too long, I've cut it from my lists (everything blue), and never looked back (no, I didn't replace it with misdirection). Honestly, I've been really happy with cutting force of will, and I've been seeing a lot of other people going lower than the recommended 4, which ultimately isn't very sound, as it is a card you want for turn 0.

Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by beez

What do you plan on doing against Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks that don't use fetches to Stifle? Just count on countering them?

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Basically. Pyromancer gives you a little room to maneuver under a Blood Moon. With SFM in the deck, it was also possible to fight through it just by hardcasting the artifacts in combination with Pyromancer. It's definitely weak to that type of hate.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Stoneforge Mystic gives you game against decks that tempo decks have no business beating (e.g. Shardless BUG). It's attrition power is amazing in a tempo deck and I would definitely not cut it unless you want to go in a completely different direction.

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Pyromancer does something similar, and can get out of hand quicker.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

ThoughtXriot you can have it all, all of the things you wished you had and more, simply cut force of will. All i'm saying.

The card has been seen as a necessary evil for too long, I've cut it from my lists (everything blue), and never looked back (no, I didn't replace it with misdirection). Honestly, I've been really happy with cutting force of will, and I've been seeing a lot of other people going lower than the recommended 4, which ultimately isn't very sound, as it is a card you want for turn 0.

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Cutting Force leaves you very soft to combo, though, does it not? Trust me, I hate the card, and I side it out against basically everything besides combo, but given that I generally only play Legacy at SCG Opens, I can't get behind cutting Forces and sacrificing the combo matchup.

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Originally Posted by Papu

Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?

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Affinity isn't very common so I haven't felt the need to metagame against it. Spell Snare helps vs. Cranial Plating, but yeah, Etched Champion is a problem. I'm not sure what additional Snapcasters do to solve that though?

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Originally Posted by Papu

Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?

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I ended up playing against affinity twice the other day, i had early removal and then SFM for jitte, every time i played them. The games werent even close.

I've been enjoying this list. I'll probably play it at an IQ next weekend. The SB Therapies are nuts against any combo deck and miracles. The only thing I'm conflicted on is dealing with Liliana of the Veil post-SB. Sometimes you have the tools with a fast Young Pyromancer, but since I am boarding out a lot of my countermagic against Liliana decks like BUG and Jund, she becomes the scariest card. I am considering 1 SB Celestial Purge, but I think that's pretty poor.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

SB
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear/Tear
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Forked Bolt

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.

EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.

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It's not just to protect against a turn 1 kill. It also allows you to lay down a threat on your turn while still having protection beyond Daze.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.

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I don't see the connection? Besides the fact that Flusterstorm is an instant....

I was under the impression that pyro worked with storm... Was I wrong? I usually don't play these stupid as fuck new critters. I guess I look at the game a bit different with a purely control background. I don't always try to force things past daze on turn one with fow (can backfire horrendously) as I usually am a bit more willing than most to let my life points dip for an advantage later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.

EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.

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*In response to your "fact" about Pyromancer and Flusterstorm, I hope you realize that Flusterstorm does not trigger Young Pyromancer multiple times…

Your analysis of Force of Will is pretty insane. It defines tempo in Legacy and is good in many situations beyond the combo matchup. I want Force of Will against 85% of the field when I am on the draw with this deck, and on the play it is still very good against any type of combo deck and Miracles.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I was under the impression that pyro worked with storm... Was I wrong?

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Yes. Pyromancer only triggers when you CAST a spell, so when you cast Flusterstorm, you'll get a token, but the storm copies aren't cast, they are just put on the stack, so no tokens.

Played the deck again this week with some slight changes. Biggest thing worth noting is I finally got to play the Affinity matchup. I finally see how bad it truly is for this deck (it was my only loss of the night, 0-2 even), so I'll be devoting 2-3 slots just for that matchup since I feel everything else is still decent.

People that argue that force isn't needed in blue (tempo)-decks anymore are doing something wrong.

Force is a catchall answer, to the turn 1 blood moon to turn 1 Show and Tell to turn 5 Jace.

Force is your PROTECTION. It's there to PROTECT.

People that want to cut force from main deck clearly aren't used to playing in diverse metagames.

There are two affinity players in my LGS, would it be worth tossing a pulverize into the sideboard?

Erik,

hows testing been going? any updates? Im considering this deck for philly this weekend and I wanted to know if you made some groundbreaking discoveries.

few friends of mine have been testing around with something similiar, dropping a significant number of counters and just playing as an aggro deck:

4 delver
4 pyro
3 lavamancer
3 geist
14

4 bolt
4 plow
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force
28

4 tarn
4 strand
1 delta
4 volcanic
3 tundra
2 underground sea

sb looks like this:
3 therapy
3 meddling mage
3 red blast
2 wear/tear
3 rip
1 electrickery

cabal therapy is extremely potent with young pyro vs combo and control alike, which we can agree that we are soft too. plus its amazing with probe, even considering a maindeck copy over plow #4. the main issue with this list is that similar tempo decks that just play bigger, harder to kill threats (like rug delver). this is why you use sfm, right? rip makes that matchup significantly better, and you can basically keep all their threats in check. trying to make room in the sb for sulfur elemental too.

i never liked running stifle/wasteland with geist, it just felt like the opposite of what we wanted to be doing.

is cabal therapy worth it over stifle/wasteland?

maybe there is a list that can incorporate sfm, young pyro, and geist together, but that seems extremely greedy

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

Erik,

hows testing been going? any updates? Im considering this deck for philly this weekend and I wanted to know if you made some groundbreaking discoveries.

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Nothing new really. Still testing the same version of the deck I posted last, except with -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Ponder in the main, and -1 Gut Shot/+1 Electrickery in the board.

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

few friends of mine have been testing around with something similiar, dropping a significant number of counters and just playing as an aggro deck:

4 delver
4 pyro
3 lavamancer
3 geist
14

4 bolt
4 plow
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force
28

4 tarn
4 strand
1 delta
4 volcanic
3 tundra
2 underground sea

sb looks like this:
3 therapy
3 meddling mage
3 red blast
2 wear/tear
3 rip
1 electrickery

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How has this deck been performing?

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

cabal therapy is extremely potent with young pyro vs combo and control alike, which we can agree that we are soft too. plus its amazing with probe, even considering a maindeck copy over plow #4. the main issue with this list is that similar tempo decks that just play bigger, harder to kill threats (like rug delver). this is why you use sfm, right? rip makes that matchup significantly better, and you can basically keep all their threats in check. trying to make room in the sb for sulfur elemental too.

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I don't think you need 3 Red Blasts. I'd also suggest using Pyroblast over Red Blast, since you can cast it for a 1/1 with Pyromancer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

i never liked running stifle/wasteland with geist, it just felt like the opposite of what we wanted to be doing.

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I've never felt like that when playing it. Geist always just seemed like a late-game trump if the tempo plan fails.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

is cabal therapy worth it over stifle/wasteland?

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Therapy is definitely tempting.... but I really love the Stifle/Waste plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiverBoa

maybe there is a list that can incorporate sfm, young pyro, and geist together, but that seems extremely greedy

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Definitely too greedy I think. It's any 2 of those 3, and I'm at a loss as to which combination is best.

SFM goes well with both, Pyro and Geist don't really synergize.