Printable View
The gemstone caverns is cute but that's what i'd take out of the main for the second Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai.
If you "really" wanted to play gemstone caverns, put them in your sideboard for AFTER you win game one and know you're playing second.
I did play caverns out of the side when I played RUG Lands and it was nice to get it turn zero; surprised several opponents.
That's exactly what I did too before testing the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
The only other change in the maindeck was -1 Inventors's Lair, + 1 Ghost Quarter.
Wouldn't do that. I'd do -1 Fair, +1 Sheltered Valley so you can get 2 life a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by anakyn
Gaining 1 more life per turn is not something this deck is after.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Cutting tutor effects for this kind of terrible conditional card is not something you want to do.
The main plan is to lock out the opponent and then destroy all of their lands, followed by what ever is left with Smokestack.
Inventors Fair is a 4 of because we always want to play one in the first few turns.
Its time we all actually played and tested the proven deck before trying to change parts of it with pet cards.
Sib
Honestly, I think testing 3 Inventor's Fair is entirely reasonable. I'm not sure what I'd immediately replace it with (I'm usually with you that 'pet' cards or 'cute' interactions aren't worthwhile), but a 4-of legendary land which requires 3 other artifacts in play (one of which really needs to be a Crucible) to activate isn't 'obviously' right, results (from 1 tournament) or not. Testing 3 should bear that out one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
As it stands, I'm interested to see which cards could be cut back to include another win condition. I only play online and winning by spirit beats might not be feasible on the chess clock.
I've played and won with stax decks running 2 off sheltered valley long before inventors fair was a thing. Mainly to shore up the burn matchup. Wasting 4 mana to tutor for a lockpiece is rather bad. Metalworking into staff for an instant win would have been an argument for inventors fair #4, but alas. Stax decks have inevitability, but ancient tomb is a big problem against aggressive decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
I spoke with the actual pilot of the deck. He said he would never drop below 4 inventors fair. If he had redundant copis he would pitch to diamond or just recur them with crucible and the tutor effect was apparently great.
If anything he said a buried ruin would probably be cut for a second gate.
I've played something similar in the past. The clock was a problem for me too. Until I found the answer (well that worked for me that is). A single Mishra's Factory kills the opponent in one strike with Metalworker/Staff combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Bear
Does he have any plans for a report? I'd love to know what he faced.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
That doesn't necessarily solve the clock issue on MTGO. All the clicking... It is a line worth remembering, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airwave
I played a few games over the weekend with the deck set-up the same as Coyle's list from Indy. I'm not sure it's better/worse than other Stax/Mud lists I've played in legacy. I don't want to speak for others, but I found that surprise of being straight prison to be the biggest aspect of the deck. Most people see Metalworker and immediately assumed Mud.
Metalworker is Metalworker. When you are activating it, you are winning. In this deck, when you are activating it, you are often piling it on. 3 CC is pretty jammed and the lock pieces are more important. I found myself using Metalworker more to bait a Force so that I could land a Trinisphere or Chalice.
Tangle Wire still stinks. I've never liked Tangle Wire in my legacy Stax builds and I still don't. Legacy decks play too many permanents and Tangle Wire doesn't provide the same Time Walk effect it does in Vintage (in fact, without Workshops, the feeling is usually that I provided my opponent with a couple Time Walks if you don't have an active Metalworker or Trinisphere). I think these may be better as spheres (probably Sphere of Resistance over Thorn unless you choose different creatures).
Ensnaring Bridge does a lot of the work. This was a card I hid behind for well over 50% of the time I played. If your opponent can't answer it, you have inevitability on your side. I found it to be the most important lock piece, even vs miracles.
This deck is really mana intensive, and it's not the cards you are casting. I tapped Wasteland a lot for mana. Buried Ruin and Inventor's Fair are both horribly expensive effects, especially since nothing you are recurring (3 mana plus CC) or tutoring (5 mana plus CC) wins the game outright. The effects are both appropriate and useful/necessary, but still expensive. I'll have to play more with them to get a better feel, but I'm not sold on either at this point.
I didn't get an opportunity to tinker too much with the deck yet, but I have a couple of things I want to try.
I messaged Mike Coyle. He is pretty busy the next few days but he will try to jump in and write up some stuff about his card choices and match ups.
I think that Karakas must be considered because is a good card, especially if you play Karn, Silver Golem. Karakas can be better than Gemstone Caverns because:
- it's good against Gaddock Teeg, that's a very powerful card against this deck;
- it helps against Reanimator and Sneak and Show;
- it helps against Death and Taxes;
- it can save Karn, Silver Golem.
I think that one Karakas in the maindeck and the other in the sideboard is a good choice.
I hope this deck will make top 8 in at least one of the Eternal Weekend tournaments and in the Grand Prix Chiba! :cool:
I'm normally a MUD player, but I've been looking at this list with great interest. I am strongly leaning towards taking a variant of this list to the eternal weekend at the end of this month.
I have been looking at this list for a few days trying to work out what I think of it. I have a few thoughts but nothing concrete. What do people who have played it think? I look at this and I want to add a trio of Tabernacle. Just feels like it should be in the 75. Either that or I am a sadist. I have not tested it myself yet though.
You want to add tabernacle, I want to add Ugin and/or karn.��Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I think if I built this the Tabernacle would go in the side. I think of this like a kind of Terra Nova deck that wins less with Factory and more with Land control. (Something I may be known to love...)
I think Karn is a decent plan but I would rather play with Factory as a kill condition, pushing though damage with Staff. I think in this regard it's more to do with personal choice. I actively adore Terra Nova style decks, it's why I have so many Tabernacles, and I may be trying to shoe in something that doesn't fit.
That said locally I don't need Traps in the side, so cutting them for a pair works out as a starting point. I also agree Tangle Wire is not as strong in Legacy as it is in Vintage but I want to play the deck before I mess with it too much.
I also keep wanting to utilize aetherflux reservoir in this style of deck. Staff of domination, infinite life, 50 them and just win on the spot.
I've been waiting to see if the deck's pilot would stop by to answer questions, but I can provide you with my experience from about a week of playing online...
I really want to be able to add a PW, too. Most of my games were played from behind an Ensnaring Bridge while you work to establish a lock. Ugin would help win without the lock, but at 8 mana, it becomes tough to hit while using Smokestack/Crucible. Karn, at 7 mana, isn't going to help as much as we want/need it too in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9
Adding Tabernacle, Factories, and (sometimes) Maze of Ith were some of the first changes I made to the deck. In keeping with the shell/strategy, the deck really needs to establish a lock to win as you need to nearly shut off your opponent before you ever attack. Tangle Wire works in Vintage for it's early turn 'Time Walk' effect, but going from Mishra's Workshop and Moxen to Ancient Tomb really changes the dynamic. [I could get into gory details, but Tangle Wire can't be used early to good effect in Legacy and later it's only good once the lock already in place.] Looking for those 'Time Walk' effects is one reason why I added Tabernacle and Maze. It effectively uses up some of your opponent's mana and shuts off early attacks while you are still trying to find an Ensnaring Bridge or Trinisphere. I find that Sphere of Resistance helps, too. Adding Sphere's also helps against combo in game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
My tinkering has left me testing with this...
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Inventor's Fair
1 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Metalworker
1 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ghirapur Orrey
2 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
Ghost Quarter is never as good as it sounds on paper (at least for me). I'm sure it's right in some metas, but online it really just kills you. The deck is pretty good at establishing a lock and winning from there. I will say, like many Legacy decks, pilot comfort level helps a lot. I've stolen a lot of games because opponents misidentify play lines.
My current criticisms with the list are
1) Mana intensive. I would say in well over 50% of games, you really want 'one more mana' some turns (5 mana to search with Fair is rough). A lot of your 'sinks' are expensive to activate and utilize. At the same time, with 35 mana sources, you can have games where you feel pretty flooded. Ultimately, I feel like we have enough sinks (Ruin, Fair, Staff, Monolith) and running an extra one or a high CC win condition may be a bit greedy. There are definitely some flex slots to try something though.
2) Slow. Online, we're stuck with a chess clock and I end a lot of matches with less than 5 minutes on mine. I'd love a way to win faster without giving up too much. There are some play lines that can speed it up, but it's still slow going most of the time.
3) Bottled Cloister only works once. Hands down it's an awesome combo with Bridge and Orrey. You side it out in pretty much every match since it turns every bounce/destroy spell into a blowout against you.
I'm curious to hear what other experiences folks are having.
I think the problem you are having here is Sphere of Resistance. I have found in my previous Stax decks that while this card is often great, it can also be a severe liability. A single wasteland from the opponent and if we have Sphere we can be locked out of the game. We have to remember that the decks we face in legacy run much cheaper cards than us. We have parity or gain an advantage by running sol lands and moxen. This all comes crumbling down if we can't stay far ahead on mana. And a single bolt to Metalworker or wasteland on a critical land will do that. Sphere turn 1 means we MUST have 4 mana turn two to play anything useful. You just can't guarantee that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Bear
I would also recommend you try Tanglewire some more. It is very very good at getting us to the later turns of the game where we can lock the opponent out. A massive flaw in Stax style plans is a weakness to Delver and other Tempo decks. As we have very little way of removing their turn 1 creatures after they have hit the board we use Tanglewire to tap them down until we can find/resolve an ensnaring bridge.
Sib
I rarely get a chance to play legacy, but one thing I really have trouble with in this deck is targeted removal. I've found that ratchet bomb is a great thing to have in the sideboard (1 main, 2 side). Vs lands, {it kills Marit Lage on the turn it's dropped} edit: No it doesn't... I'm an idiot. Vs delver on 1, Vs death & taxes it kills a lot on 2, it kills blood moon and magus of the moon on 3 (unless you like having them around). Also kills Sanctum Prelate (that's a major PITA in hatebears).
That said, I've also found Tangle Wire is often *handy*, but not always "great". It's a mini time walk at times, but I've yet to recur it with buried ruin even one time.
Even Grim Monolith... unless you're running some serious fatties, I don't think it really buys you all that much. Sure you can often Ancient Tomb --> Monolith --> Metalworker on turn 1... it happens. Ultra rare occasions you can Inventors Fair and fetch for a staff to end the game, but that's ultra rare.
Overall though, if I could fetch for Ugin somehow, I'd love to have a singleton in this deck. Clearing a scary board is something I find myself wanting to do, thinking "man... when these tangle wire tick down, I'm screwed"
I'm wondering if there's lands that overall are better than Inventors' Fair, and instead of running 4, going down to 2 or even 1, replacing them with the other lands. Then for the fetch effect, run something with a "Ring of Three Wishes" effect. It costs 5, and costs 5 to activate, but Inventors' Fair also costs 5 effectively. That would let you fetch for Ugin. If only Haven of the Spirit Dragon let you find it in the library...
If someone let you kill Marit Lage with a ratchet bomb, then you got a free pass. Marit Lage being indestructible cares about ratchet bomb less than it cares about your life total.Quote:
Originally Posted by barwick11