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Mono-Black discard/Deadguy variants are not at all the biggest threat to belcher. You go first, play a Grant, fetch and land, tutor for Belcher play it. They now are discarding your hand now. Cool. You topdeck into more excel stuff so it really doesn't hurt you compared to just Force of Will or Daze.
Counter and discard both suck for Belcher, its the fact that counters are instants so you HAVE to prepare for them. Discard isn't an issue if you have the nuts in your hand and your playing.
Let me ask an interesting question, I hope people wont flip out over it. If you know what your opponents playing, do you ever question if you want to DRAW instead of PLAY? I've had this come up a number of times, belcher really loves that card it could get. Id like to do this against any non control deck, even with Pithing Needle around as long as your prepared for it you might be ok. Thoughts?
With Dissension being the next set to be released, do you think this deck will reach top tier once Infernal Tutor gets legal? I hear LED + Infernal Tutor is tech.
I think that something will reach Tier 1 once Dissension is playable, and it could quite possibly be this. I've been consistently goldfishing turn 2 hands, and they usually don't role to a Force, which is nice. The way the meta is looking right now, with the release of Dissension, I couldn't see a better time for there to be a resurgance in the Belcher area :)
With the new tutor, you could probably up the black card count in Belcher enough to make Unmask playable (you would have cards like the 8 rituals, 4 tutors, maybe spoils, maybe duress or therapy). This would be great to improve its matchups against anything that packs a lot of disruption.
The new tutor would make Cabal Ritual quite good too, as you might actually reach threshold quickly.
This is the build I've been running lately:
// Lands
1 [A] Bayou
1 [B] Tropical Island
// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
// Spells
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chromatic Sphere
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Living Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [TE] Eladamri's Vineyard
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [7E] Duress
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
2 [FD] Night's Whisper
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [UL] Goblin Welder
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [6E] Uktabi Orangutan
SB: 1 [8E] City of Brass
SB: 1 [FD] Auriok Salvagers
SB: 1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 [EX] City of Traitors
SB: 1 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [NE] Woodripper
SB: 1 [GP] Skeletal Vampire
The Salvagers in the sb provide an alternate win condition (Living wish, IR Ritual, Sack LED, then win if you have a chromatic sphere in hand/play/grave) which makes this deck more than belcher.
Lim-Dul's Vault can set up either the belcher win, or the Combo win. If you drop one you can usually figure out how to win the next turn, which makes this more than a simple tutor. Sphere/Brainstorm/Nights whispers can draw into what you need after playing the vault too, giving this deck even more of a comboish feel.
Vineyard can be a green dark ritual, or more if the game goes to turn 3. This is a mana-hungry version of Belcher that aims at a more consistant turn 2/3 instead of aiming for the nut 1/2, so vineyard is better than it would be normally.
Hmm, what else would look odd here. Oh, right, the Skeletal Vampire in the sb is to just grab to beat down with when both you and your opp have nothing (happens sometimes, it has straight-up won me games vs. Thresh). Usually it's just something to grab when you're comboing off w/living wish if your belchars have been extracted, or something stupid like that. Another out, basically.
Sometimes wish grabs an out, sometimes it grabs the sackland to ensure the kill, sometimes it grabs the combo. It's always good, though.
This version of belcher is a lot more complicated than normal versions. It's also more consistant, and has more outs. It's slower. I like it a lot, but I can definately understand why it wouldn't be for everyone.
The UGw thresh matchup still sucks. Needle is ok. FoW is ok. Meddling mage is ok. All 3 together? Hell. Anyone know any tech for this? I've tried transformative sbing, sbing crypts to slow them down, boarding in a red splash for REB's, and boarding in more discard. None of it seems to really work, so I was hoping there'd be something I could grab from a wishboard that'd help more. I've won games from swinging w/ vamp and friends, while vineyard deals them damage, but that doesn't happen consistantly.
Note: A bad Thresh player will name belchar w/ both mage and needle, which can give me the window to go off with the combo. Still, hoping your opponent is bad is a very bad strategy in this game.
If you have questions/suggestions/comments, they are most welcome. Please don't flame though. I've been tweaking this list ever since the new 1.5 list was announced months ago, and it's had a lot of playtest time, tournament results (T8's, T4's, & finals), and tweaking. I guess I'm saying I'd like my effort respected, even if you dislike it personally.
I think that vineyard isn't good because if this version of the belcherdeck isn't as fast as the other one you might get problems with goblindecks rushing you. With the sccleration of the vineyard the aggrodecks are more likely to pull out a turn 3 win what might be a problem for you.
What're they going to do with that extra two mana, cast matron? Gobblins still needs double red for warcheif, and at least single reds for each other gob. Then you've still got tinder wall to block lackey. Besides, you've got a better chance of winning on turn two then they have of winning on turn three. You're right though, it does happen from time to time, just not often enough for me to worry about.
You also mentioned that occasionally you win against Threshold through manaburn, I think that alone vindicates its inclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb
They may not drop Matron, but you've opened up a 2nd-turn Ringleader or double driver........ hell they even have 2nd turn warchief if they go mountain mountain. Vineyard is VERY VERY VERY bad against goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb
EDIT: Hows this for a little doozy? I drop Vineyard after my opponent drops Vial. They go turn 2 vial in lacky, play warchief. Swing drop SGC. Very scary because I just gave them the win next turn pretty much as they dropped Matron, fetch Pyromancer, play pyromancer and vial out a Piledriver.... EXCELLENT!
I think maindeck Vineyard is a great thing. Goblins gains barely anything from it since they still want a turn one lackey not matron. Vineyard has also damaged my opponents for 4-5 damage a few times to make non lethal belchers lethal. Thresh has almost nothing to do with the green mana unless they have bear, Its only bad against rifter really. But you crush them anyways.
So your telling me if your holding a Ringleader and a lackey in opening hand, you drop lackey and say go and your opponent drops a Vineyard, your NOT going to play the Ringleader next turn?
You've got the Lackey, you could get it into play anyways. Besides, Ringleader isn't racing any Belchers. With luck, they'll get a turn 3 kill, but they aren't killing turn 2 anyways, while we're going off turn 3 latest. Besides, the Vineyard mana pretty much guarantees being able to go off the next turn, so outside turn 2 kill (which Goblins simply are not capable off, Vineyard or not) it should be beef with that. Losing a tiny percentage of games to Goblins for more consistent goldfish and remote chances at winning against Threshold seem WELL worth it. No deck is actually going to use Vineyard mana to STOP you from going off so it's pretty trivial in that respect .Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT
Hah, incredibly improbable scenerio, but here.
Turn one
vial, vial, goblin lackey
turn two
drop cheif, vial in a lackey and swing (16)
lackey's drop Ringleader and siege gang (full 9 cards! lol!)
Leader hits Skirk Prospector, Siege Gang, Warcheif, Ringleader
Vial in prospector, Sack 2 Lackey's for Warcheif, sack 3 tokens for siege gang #2, sack 2 new tokens for ringleader #2
Ringleader #2 hits Siege Gang, Sharpshooter, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg fanatic
Sack last goblin token for sharpshooter, sack two ringleaders and a siege gang for siege gang #3, pinging w/ shooter (13)
sack two tokens for two fanatics (11) sack last token and a siege gang for mana, then fling a warcheif at their dome (6) sack a fanatic and prospector for mana, then chuck the last siege gang at their dome (1) then sack the fanatic ftw.
There are obviously variations on what the second Ringleader could hit for the turn two off of Vineyard to work, and it's obviously a one in a million, but it was still fun to work out.
The worst Vineyard mana is when they play an answer to the Vineyard with it. I've had Solidarity players use the mana for cunning wish-chain of vapors on Vineyard (they were able to combo out the next turn). I've had other decks use it to play a boarded in Naturalize. Once I had a WW player drop a Null Rod (though that didn't stop me from winning the game...)
EDIT: A few changes to my list. -2 Night's Whispers, +2 Meditate. Whispers werent doing too much for me, and I can see how Meditate could be crazy good, especially with Lim Duls Vault, Vineyards, and LED in the deck.
-2 welder, -2 swarm from my sb, +4 Defense Grid. I'm going to test this a bit, if I don't like it I'll switch back.
This is what happened to me, not really important, but funny.
turn 1
Him: tropical island, go.
Me: (damn, he's playing Threshold..) bayou, lotus petal, Vineyard.
Turn 2
Him: polluted delta, sac for underground sea. Play Aluren, win.
Me: (damn, he's not playing Threshold..)
To those of you who run Eladamri's Vineyard, or have ran it:
Is it really that good? I've considered running it a few times, and I've also considered sideboarding it, but in the end I always decline to do so. Legacy as a format can be very dependant upon tempo. Yes, Vineyard gives you a huge tempo swing, but your opponent benefits from it first, and I'm way too scared of what the opponent will be able to do with the mana and tempo I'm giving him. It's the same as when you cast Howling Mine, then your opponent draws an extra card and destroys it on his own turn in Standard. Also, aren't there times when the mana you get from the Vineyard does nothing for you, and you're forced to take burn? I know in theory you should be winning with the mana, but it's green, and the game doesn't always play out the way it should. What if you play Vineyard and then they counter your Belcher, or they hit you with some discard, and you yourself start taking burn every turn? That sounds horrible when there's so much mana acceleration out there that doesn't have a negative side effect, like the rest of the acceleration that's ALREADY in your deck.
Is Vineyard really any good? Is it even needed in a deck chocked full of mana acceleration already? Wouldn't the slots be better used by Unmask? The deck has no lack of mana acceleration, but it does lack in its ability to win through disruption. Unmask definitely helps with that...
Have you ever tested the Machtup betweedn Belcher and ***** or Goblins?When yes then either you or your opponent(or both ) are very bad players.I guess its the first one..Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
***** gains great advantage of Vineyard because it can drop almost all its threads very fast.Its not only Werebear,Mongoose and the usal "fatty" like Fledling Draon,Mystic Enforcer or Sea Drake also most Gro decks run some cantrips which also require Colorless Mana.After boarding they bring in hate like Needle which they can cast for free.
Also please stop talking about turn 1 Lackey.Currently turn 1 lackey seems to be the most discussed Situation in MTG.Turn 1 Lackey is quite a rare case and even then you should outrace them.When they donīt have turn 1 lackey(which is most of the time) they will gain tremendous advantage from Vineyard.
In conclusion I say NO to vineyard...
More people should work on the white Version with Tithe,Seal,Tutor,Argivian Find,Abeyance and Orims Chant.
Tithe provides that your Tog gets lethal(a lot more than Vineyards manaburn)
Tutor gives this Deck one of the best tutors.
Seal of Cleansinig is awesome in our metagame as a fetchable maindeck 1 of.Because it is good against Rifter,Needle and many other problematic cards.
Argivian find gets back your belcher,LED and you can also cycle it with Cards like Chromatic Sphere in your Deck when you donīt need it.
Orims Chant protects your combo for just W.
Abeyance protects your combo,Cantrips and slows down your opponent.
Making a mana base for this Deck might be difficult but all these Cards seem to fit extremly well to Belcher not like Vineyard..
You sir, are a COMPLETE idiot. Turn 1 Lacky is so feared because its QUITE COMMON!!! Ask anyone, they will all tell you that lacky comes down almost half the games that Goblins plays. Maybe since you live in the middle of nowhere you dont play against very good Goblin players (or maybe your not a very good player yourself) but people do this thing called AGGRESSIVE MULLIGANS! They mull down to a vial or lacky most of the time, and since they play 4, its not an issue too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.ugs
I agree Lackey is so common it's not even funny but Vineyard isn't a good deck in this deck I found. My version runs more of a ritual base with Tinder Wall and Desperate Rituals. Single player mana excel is the way to go here. Vineyards give them a turn 1 Negator, Rule of Law, Arcane Lab, just so many threats to the deck. Sideboard maybe, but I just wouldn't run it it's too risky.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT