[Deck] Turbo Depths

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Originally Posted by komondor

Glad to hear it's showing some promise. I don't have all the cards yet to sleeve it up but I like having some game against the combo decks. While driving last night I was thinking if it would be worth it to just run UB. While it's not going to be anywhere near the efficiency as it would be in a delver deck, I think Cruise could be decent. Plus it ups the # of blue cards for FOW. With all the discard, cantrips, and fetchlands, cruise should be pretty good. Should also be really helpful if you have to go off again. Just threw this list together. Maybe instead of 1 daze or 1 of the cruises a catchall bounce spell.

~Decklist list with treasure cruise

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I have considered treasure cruise. However Dig through time may actually be better since it possibly finds our combo outright. Initially id consider cutting expedition map but i don't think any rendition can afford to cut green. Crop rotation is, in my opinion, the first card added to the deck after stage depths and hexmage. It protects against wasteland and is an instant tutor for our any piece of our combo.

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Originally Posted by TLK

Great news. I never had a problem with Delver. My win % is super high against Delver strategies in my advanced testing with the original build. I actually am relieved when I see my opponent drop a T1 Delver.

Can you post the full 75 for reference, or link me to where it was posted before? I know you did the +/- reconciliation to the original build but I don't recall if you ever posted the full list

Edit - is it the same list as shown in a few posts above?

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I posted the list I'm working on in the OP under "currently being tested" so we can find it easier.

Jammed in several games with BUG list with several adjustments and deck itself plays quite well. Let's get to the decklist firstly.

Lands (22)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Wasteland
4x Dark Depths
2x Thespian Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4x Vampire Hexmage

4x Expedition Map
4x Force of WIll
3x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm (probably should be 4th spell pierce to counter b.moon or chalice or PWs)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Treasure Cruise
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Crop Rotation
2x Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Golgari Charm
2x Not of this World
1x Karakas
1x bojuka Bog
1x Null Rod
1x Grafdigger's Cage


BUG version of this deck has its core similar to BUG Delver so I thought why not to incorporate this strategy to the Depths somehow. Few explanations:

Treasure Cruise - velocity of this deck is high. Cantrips, fetchlands, discard, Crop Rotation, etc. TC is reliably castable around 4th turn. Especially good after going for combo. It serves the similar purpose as Sylvan Library does. Marit Lage gets plow'ed? np. +20 life gives us necessary time and TC draws gas just for one mana. Can be pitched to FoW. Works great with Delver plan.

22 Lands - 22 lands - 4 depths - 2 thespian stages = 16 color-producing lands. More than enough for our 1cc and 2cc spells. There is also reason in this land count for Delver plan. For reference BUG Delver plays 15 color-producing lands and 4 colorless.

2 Thespian Stage - I have played about 15 games with the deck and usually got one copy when I needed it. We don't need colorless mana except for combo activation and Expedition Map.

8 Fetches and 6 Dual lands are just fine.

1 Urborg - I would love to play second copy, but what to cut?

Delver Plan - I can imagine we may beat combo decks just by playing lands, some cantrips and by disrupting their game plan and when they are depleted, kill them. But land T1 or T2 threat and then just ride for the victory with counter backup is much more reliable plan. I think this transformational sideboard gives us the edge against Miracles. Delver bites for 3, Goyf for 4-5, Marit is lethal. Just overload them with threats while sitting on counterspells and trying to stop their gamebreaking spells. Treasure Cruises help a lot here to refill the hand. I believe Delver can be smthg else, for example Vendilion Clique. It needs lot of testing though.

SB plan against Storm:
-4 Expedition MAp
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Dark Depths
-1 Wasteland
-1 Thespian Stage
-1 Vampire Hexmage
-1 Crop Rotation/Treasure Cruise

+4 Goyf
+4 Delver
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Null Rod
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Golgari Charm

SB plan against MIracles:
-4 Expedition Map
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Dark Depths (not sure here)
-2 Crop Rotation
-1 Thoughtseize
(-1 ??)

+4 Tarmogoyf
+4 Delver
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Null Rod
(+1 Not of this World)

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Originally Posted by Lio

BUG version of this deck has its core similar to BUG Delver so I thought why not to incorporate this strategy to the Depths somehow. Few explanations:

Treasure Cruise - velocity of this deck is high. Cantrips, fetchlands, discard, Crop Rotation, etc. TC is reliably castable around 4th turn. Especially good after going for combo. It serves the similar purpose as Sylvan Library does. Marit Lage gets plow'ed? np. +20 life gives us necessary time and TC draws gas just for one mana. Can be pitched to FoW. Works great with Delver plan.

22 Lands - 22 lands - 4 depths - 2 thespian stages = 16 color-producing lands. More than enough for our 1cc and 2cc spells. There is also reason in this land count for Delver plan. For reference BUG Delver plays 15 color-producing lands and 4 colorless.

2 Thespian Stage - I have played about 15 games with the deck and usually got one copy when I needed it. We don't need colorless mana except for combo activation and Expedition Map.

8 Fetches and 6 Dual lands are just fine.

1 Urborg - I would love to play second copy, but what to cut?

Delver Plan - I can imagine we may beat combo decks just by playing lands, some cantrips and by disrupting their game plan and when they are depleted, kill them. But land T1 or T2 threat and then just ride for the victory with counter backup is much more reliable plan. I think this transformational sideboard gives us the edge against Miracles. Delver bites for 3, Goyf for 4-5, Marit is lethal. Just overload them with threats while sitting on counterspells and trying to stop their gamebreaking spells. Treasure Cruises help a lot here to refill the hand. I believe Delver can be smthg else, for example Vendilion Clique. It needs lot of testing though.

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Intersting list. It's very close to what i had been testing. There is a 3 card difference you cut 2 thespian's stage for 2 treasure cruise and cut 1 discard spell for a ponder. Our sideboards are totally different as mine is in transition. My only concern about your SB is that it doesn't seem to have answers for opponents sideboard cards it simply just changes its strategy which is a huge gamble until further testing.

If you want another urborg you can cut 1 fetchaland but i wouldn't go below 7. 22 lands seems a little low just because we need to reliably hit 4 lands by turn 4. we don't wanna miss land drops in this deck.

in your list with only 2 stages it may be better to run dig through time. I could see that :u::u: could be a problem occasionally, but if you are normally casting it T4 anyways it really shouldn't be. Additionally DTT can be cast EOT so you can still leave mana open for pierce. DTT is the preferred card for combo decks as evidenced by omnitell, high tide, and sneak and show. Additionally, in extreme corner case situations DTT can be used to remove a land that is being targeted by surgical extraction.

Well, I took your list and make some changes :). I like the idea of very interactive Depths Combo deck. Super-entertaining!

I tried DTT but there were games where I had U.Sea + Bayou or U.Sea + Urborg and DTT in hand and desperately needed to refuel my hand. But you are right about DTT, it is better in combo decks than TC.

22 lands might seem low but don't forget I play 8 cantrips + 4x Crop rotation. And if we assume that 1 cantrip = 0,5 land then I feel pretty safe. I am more concern about constantly having blue source on T1. With enough blue mana we can efficiently dig through the deck.

About my SB: If the transformational sideboard won't work (and I don't have high expectations), I will switch back to the normal SB.

edit: I would switch second Bayou for second Tropical Island. Blue mana is much more important than black/green on the first turn and decides whether to mulligan or not as this deck relies much more on blue than on black.

Interesting to see this change from it's initial form into yet another Blue-based deck. It's a shame really, but it was bound to happen one time

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Originally Posted by Lio

Well, I took your list and make some changes :). I like the idea of very interactive Depths Combo deck. Super-entertaining!

I tried DTT but there were games where I had U.Sea + Bayou or U.Sea + Urborg and DTT in hand and desperately needed to refuel my hand. But you are right about DTT, it is better in combo decks than TC.

22 lands might seem low but don't forget I play 8 cantrips + 4x Crop rotation. And if we assume that 1 cantrip = 0,5 land then I feel pretty safe. I am more concern about constantly having blue source on T1. With enough blue mana we can efficiently dig through the deck.

About my SB: If the transformational sideboard won't work (and I don't have high expectations), I will switch back to the normal SB.

edit: I would switch second Bayou for second Tropical Island. Blue mana is much more important than black/green on the first turn and decides whether to mulligan or not as this deck relies much more on blue than on black.

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i don't know that i would drop 2 stages for treasure cruise. Maybe testing 1 cruise and 1 dig would be ok. I just fear that tc still gives us blank draws. id agree that tropical might be better than a second bayou.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Interesting to see this change from it's initial form into yet another Blue-based deck. It's a shame really, but it was bound to happen one time

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yeah it feels like selling your soul to the devil. However, you can look at it this way, if the deck turns out to be better than we have a superior deck. If something happens to blue in the future and it gets hated on or BS banned, the deck has a fall back plan.




EDIT*** the deck has started to really upset me because I'm running into colored mana problems. Maybe its because I'm not searching the right land initially or something but not having the right color really causes game losses and its the reason that the original version runs rainbow lands. The only issue with using rainbows in the list I'm testing now is that it kills brainstorms and ponders effectiveness. idk maybe theres another way to get it accomplished.

I've been playing with modified list, because I was unsatisfied with my manabase. As you wrote apple, the deck lacked colored mana sometimes. I need to incorporate Maze of Ith into the deck to buy the time against Batterskull. When they hit us once or twice and get above 20, it becomes difficult to win. I have lost against JUND today! Playing blue paid its price by getting screwed with multiple Pyroblasts...

Updated manabase:

4x Dark Depths
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (I would like to up the count to 3 to have more consistant T3 kill)
3x Mana Confluence
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacomb
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Wasteland

4x Force of Will
4x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Expedition Map
2x Treasure Cruise
4x Thoughtseize (or TS/IoK split)
1x Dimir Charm (kill creatures like SFM, Clique, Confi, Deathrite and serves as a hard counter against variety of spells)
1x Sylvan Scrying

I got back to the classic sideboard because playset of Pithing Needles is necessity. I miss Delver and Tarmo in UW blade matchup though.

@ lio

I dont know how comfortable I am cutting abrupt decay. Its really nice main against delve / miracles. Maybe i just really like knowing that its never getting countered.

I recently considered playing more of a tempo style deck with stifles and maybe 3 tc. With 0 pithing needle main but stifle instead, you up the blue count and gain protection against wasteland, maze, karakas, liliana, storm and griselbrand / sneak.

After reading all of the benefits im unsure why we were not playing it to begin with.

Have you tested Stifle yet?

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Originally Posted by TLK

Have you tested Stifle yet?

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no i've been binging diablo3's new patch for the last couple days :P

Pff, screw Diablo. Hope you play PC version :P.

TLK@
I am testing Stifle list at the moment with interesting results. This version have good results in matches where adriengs version has weakness - combo matchups - Reanimator, Storm, SnT, glass cannon decks, etc. I have some troubles with previously good matchups though - Jund, decks with Mother of Ruins and fliers (lack of Sejiri maindeck), weird home brews, etc. Well tuned sideboard could turn the waves hopefully.

My current decklist:

Lands (24, 19 mana)
4x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith (I would LOVE to play Wasteland, Maze and Sejiri all in the deck, but we have space just for one. And I've lost to BSK way too often)
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
3x Mana Confluence

4x Expedition Map
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Treasure Cruise

SB:
1x Hydroblast
1x Envelop (MVP)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland (not sure here)
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Not of this World
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm (I would prefer 1 Charm and 2 copies of Toxic Delug, but owe only one)
1x flex slot - Duress, Pithing Needle, mass removal, Sylvan Library, spot removal ...

I admit sideboard is not the perfect. It needs some work. But I haven't played enough games to make a statement. Besides maindeck is very tight so sideboarding is VERY difficult.

edit: happened me twice that I won the game with removing all 10 counters (twice in same game against UW blade!) by paying mana while delaying the opponent and collecting some protection as FoW, TS and NotW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lio

Pff, screw Diablo. Hope you play PC version :P.

TLK@
I am testing Stifle list at the moment with interesting results. This version have good results in matches where adriengs version has weakness - combo matchups - Reanimator, Storm, SnT, glass cannon decks, etc. I have some troubles with previously good matchups though - Jund, decks with Mother of Ruins and fliers (lack of Sejiri maindeck), weird home brews, etc. Well tuned sideboard could turn the waves hopefully.

My current decklist:

Lands (24, 19 mana)
4x Dark Depths
1x Maze of Ith (I would LOVE to play Wasteland, Maze and Sejiri all in the deck, but we have space just for one. And I've lost to BSK way too often)
3x Thespian Stage
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
3x Mana Confluence

4x Expedition Map
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Crop Rotation
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Treasure Cruise

SB:
1x Hydroblast
1x Envelop (MVP)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Wasteland (not sure here)
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Not of this World
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Golgari Charm (I would prefer 1 Charm and 2 copies of Toxic Delug, but owe only one)
1x flex slot - Duress, Pithing Needle, mass removal, Sylvan Library, spot removal ...

I admit sideboard is not the perfect. It needs some work. But I haven't played enough games to make a statement. Besides maindeck is very tight so sideboarding is VERY difficult.

edit: happened me twice that I won the game with removing all 10 counters (twice in same game against UW blade!) by paying mana while delaying the opponent and collecting some protection as FoW, TS and NotW.

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How great has Expedition Map been? I feel like with the increased card draw it's not quite as important. Possibly -4 Map +1 Steppe, +1 Wasteland, +1 Cruise/DTT, +1 Something else

Expedition is necessary to find the combo pieces in time. Cantrips are good, but you need the way to find exactly what you need. And it fits the tempo style of the deck. Pay one mana and sit on counterspells/brainstorms/play TS. And you can activate it at the end of turn when it's safe. I think you would have to replace Expedition Map with smthg like Sylvan Scrying (but 2cc sorcery is bad here) or Preordain or such. I think the deck can afford to lower the number to 3 Expedition Maps in favor of Sejiri or Wasteland. Or singleton Abrupt Decay. Catch-all removal comes handy sometimes.

DTT is bad here as we don¨t play enough blue mana sources. TC allows us to play it for one blue mana and keep the other one for Spell Pierce, BS or Stifle. I would like to add the dual land count up to 5, but can't justify it by cutting any relevant card. Maybe ThoughtseizE? It's nombo when you draw both of them in your opening - go for T1 discard to keep them from turn 1 play, or keep the mana up for fetchlands? I like smthg like T1 fetch, go. Opp fetch, go. I play land, play TS. Opp wants to respond with BS, so crack the fetchland and runs directly into Stifle. So they end up without land and the card they wanted to hide from TS. But this play is risky as it slows our development.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lio

Expedition is necessary to find the combo pieces in time. Cantrips are good, but you need the way to find exactly what you need. And it fits the tempo style of the deck. Pay one mana and sit on counterspells/brainstorms/play TS. And you can activate it at the end of turn when it's safe. I think you would have to replace Expedition Map with smthg like Sylvan Scrying (but 2cc sorcery is bad here) or Preordain or such. I think the deck can afford to lower the number to 3 Expedition Maps in favor of Sejiri or Wasteland. Or singleton Abrupt Decay. Catch-all removal comes handy sometimes.

DTT is bad here as we don¨t play enough blue mana sources. TC allows us to play it for one blue mana and keep the other one for Spell Pierce, BS or Stifle. I would like to add the dual land count up to 5, but can't justify it by cutting any relevant card. Maybe ThoughtseizE? It's nombo when you draw both of them in your opening - go for T1 discard to keep them from turn 1 play, or keep the mana up for fetchlands? I like smthg like T1 fetch, go. Opp fetch, go. I play land, play TS. Opp wants to respond with BS, so crack the fetchland and runs directly into Stifle. So they end up without land and the card they wanted to hide from TS. But this play is risky as it slows our development.

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I dont like expedition map in here very much either. Im thinking about cutting 1-2 in favor of cards like sejiri. Since there is no basic forest it is not nearly as useful. I would rather play 2 preordain or gitaxian probe.

So far ive been liking stifle. I run 3. I also run 3 urborg but havent made a spot for maze. I feel like i need sejiri. There have been a large number of time when it would have won me the game. I also feel like spell pierce is more of a tempo card than a protection spell for swords or something. What happens is unless you can suprise them with eot crop rotation they just keep mana open and its worthless. Additionally, i got submerged yesterday for the first time in a year. I really dont like forests.

So I ran the following tonight and went 4-1 and took 2nd out of 18. Lost to the guy that went 5-0

4 Depths, Verdant Catacombs
3 Thespian Stage, Mana Confluence, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tropical Island
1 Bayou, Maze of Ith, Sejiri Steppe

4 Crop Rotation, Force of Will, Brainstorm, Ponder, Hexmage, Thoughtseize
3 Stifle, Treasure Cruise, Spell Pierce

SB
2 Ratchet Bomb, Abrupt Decay, Toxic Deluge, Surgical Extraction, Not of this World
1 Karakas, Bojuga Bog, Duress, BEB, Pithing Needle

R1 - Fabiano's BUG list - Straight murdered it. 2-0
R2 - Manaless Dredge - won 2-1. I only lost a game because I'm an idiot. Surgical extraction made this pretty easy.
R3 - Miracles - won 2-1. Lost game one to a naked counterbalance. If he hit a 1cc he wins if not I win. He won. Crushed game 2 with 2 thoughtseize. Won game 3 thanks to Sejiri Steppe and Not of this World in the same turn to get through Karakas/STP on turn 4
R4 - UR Delver - Lost 2-0. He won the die roll and killed me turn 4. Game 2 not really sure why I lost. We played 4 more games afterwards and I won all 4.
R5 - Lands - Won 2-1. Not of this world won the match again.

So Cruise wasn't anywhere near as good as I thought. I'm thinking -2 Cruise +1 Stifle +1 Not of this World main. SB I'm not so sure. I sided every card at least once. Taking cards out was really difficult as well.

Nice results! I see you've cut Expedition Map entirely. Did you not miss it? How consistent was going for combo?

About SB: Do you think Ratchet Bomb is necessary? I know this card is sweet and all, but you want it in the matchups where you need Abrupt Decay as well. I feel like I wouldn't know what to cut. Sideboarding is pain with this deck :D.

Yeah I think the blue shell is a very good option if you want to beat others combo deck and your have also a way safer manabase which used with previous builds to cause lot of mulligans issues.
I still think I want more sylvan libraries here at least seems better in side than Not of this world. I like the expedition map though.

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Originally Posted by Lio

Nice results! I see you've cut Expedition Map entirely. Did you not miss it? How consistent was going for combo?

About SB: Do you think Ratchet Bomb is necessary? I know this card is sweet and all, but you want it in the matchups where you need Abrupt Decay as well. I feel like I wouldn't know what to cut. Sideboarding is pain with this deck :D.

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I didn't miss Map. The only time I had issues was when I sac'd a trop for Crop Rotation and then later drew another crop rotation that I couldn't cast. I never drew Ratchet bomb. I only sided it in vs Delver. It's basically the only way to get Blood Moon off the table once it resolves. I thought about a forest k-grip package but Ratchet Bomb saved me slots. Not sure what's correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Yeah I think the blue shell is a very good option if you want to beat others combo deck and your have also a way safer manabase which used with previous builds to cause lot of mulligans issues.
I still think I want more sylvan libraries here at least seems better in side than Not of this world. I like the expedition map though.

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Actually, now that you mention it I'll probably drop the 2 cruises for 2 Sylvans. I really like the NOTW in the match ups where I want it. IE Lands/D&T/Miracles. You're basically racing and allows you to go all out since it's free. I would really like to get a Wasteland in somewhere.

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Originally Posted by komondor

I didn't miss Map. The only time I had issues was when I sac'd a trop for Crop Rotation and then later drew another crop rotation that I couldn't cast. I never drew Ratchet bomb. I only sided it in vs Delver. It's basically the only way to get Blood Moon off the table once it resolves. I thought about a forest k-grip package but Ratchet Bomb saved me slots. Not sure what's correct.

Actually, now that you mention it I'll probably drop the 2 cruises for 2 Sylvans. I really like the NOTW in the match ups where I want it. IE Lands/D&T/Miracles. You're basically racing and allows you to go all out since it's free. I would really like to get a Wasteland in somewhere.

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ratchet bomb kills tokens, flying delvers, blood moons and magus's. you can play it after a it hits too. sure that doesn't happen all that often but tokens do in miracles / UR and shorty with that new white card. Kills batter skull token too Lio.

Kgrip forest package is nice but only for blood moon really. You are gonna hate yourself when you draw that forest any other time because you're only green card is crop rotation. You would be better off running island for a bounce spell and then trying to discard it. That way you can fetch for it at least and dig while you search for your bounce spell.

Sylvan library seems redundant with all the brainstorm's and ponders. I could be wrong but if any a low number would be the most i'd consider (1-2).

I really love crop rotation but it really seems to be causing problems with the manabase. This is why the original list ran rainbows. Unless the manabase can be perfected it may be necessary to test without it. Somehow other combo decks like Sneak and show and omni do alright without direct tutors. On the other hand you have decks like Ant that does have direct tutors and they do exceptionally well.

One of the benefits of brainstorm is that you can run a small number of conditional cards like Not of this world because you can always shuffle them back and fetch them away.


@Komodor

How did you like stifle?

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Originally Posted by apple713

ratchet bomb kills tokens, flying delvers, blood moons and magus's. you can play it after a it hits too. sure that doesn't happen all that often but tokens do in miracles / UR and shorty with that new white card. Kills batter skull token too Lio.

Kgrip forest package is nice but only for blood moon really. You are gonna hate yourself when you draw that forest any other time because you're only green card is crop rotation. You would be better off running island for a bounce spell and then trying to discard it. That way you can fetch for it at least and dig while you search for your bounce spell.

Sylvan library seems redundant with all the brainstorm's and ponders. I could be wrong but if any a low number would be the most i'd consider (1-2).

I really love crop rotation but it really seems to be causing problems with the manabase. This is why the original list ran rainbows. Unless the manabase can be perfected it may be necessary to test without it. Somehow other combo decks like Sneak and show and omni do alright without direct tutors. On the other hand you have decks like Ant that does have direct tutors and they do exceptionally well.

One of the benefits of brainstorm is that you can run a small number of conditional cards like Not of this world because you can always shuffle them back and fetch them away.


@Komodor

How did you like stifle?

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I loved Stifle! Especially on the play. Next Thursday if I go I'll try straight UB and see what happens without Crop Rotation. The other thing I loved about Brainstorm is that it was a way to get Sejiri Steppe back into the deck so it could be Crop Rotated. I'm not very familiar with Legacy, what blue bounce spell would be optimal? And I'll start thinking about a list for UB.