[Deck] Czech Pile

I just picked up this deck, after being homeless for quite some time following the top ban. I only played one local event with ~15 players, but I already like the grindy nature and the inevitabiliy feel that the CA engine gives.

Forgive me for asking some rather basic questions about the deck, but I would appreciate some thoughts from more experienced pilots to help me get into it.

Please explain to me why Marsh Casualties is such a popular sideboard card. Is it's main purpose to combat True Name Nemesis? Isn't Toxic Deluge simply better in most cases? Getting to pay the kicker seems pretty much impossible in most matchups, except perhaps vs Deathblade (again TNN..).


Coming from Miracles it is pretty scary to field the mana base that the (more or less) stock list I employed had. Only one Island and one Swamp seem pretty standard. It is really that difficult to squeeze in another Island for example?

Also I'm suprized that Sylvan Library isn't more popular. Too much of a tempo loss I suppose?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by ozimek

I just picked up this deck, after being homeless for quite some time following the top ban. I only played one local event with ~15 players, but I already like the grindy nature and the inevitabiliy feel that the CA engine gives.

Forgive me for asking some rather basic questions about the deck, but I would appreciate some thoughts from more experienced pilots to help me get into it.

Please explain to me why Marsh Casualties is such a popular sideboard card. Is it's main purpose to combat True Name Nemesis? Isn't Toxic Deluge simply better in most cases? Getting to pay the kicker seems pretty much impossible in most matchups, except perhaps vs Deathblade (again TNN..).


Coming from Miracles it is pretty scary to field the mana base that the (more or less) stock list I employed had. Only one Island and one Swamp seem pretty standard. It is really that difficult to squeeze in another Island for example?

Also I'm suprized that Sylvan Library isn't more popular. Too much of a tempo loss I suppose?

Thanks in advance.

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Hello and welcome,

Marsh is obvsiously a good sideboard option to beat TNN, but it is also excellent in the mirror to catch opponent's strix and snap. It is also way easier to flashback than toxic deluge.

You can play a second island if you want, some list cut the second Volcanic Island, but this is gimmick in Hymn build, this is rather stronger if you play counterspell.

Sylvan Lib is quite popular in sideboard thought.

What do you guys think of the recent lists that eschews Gurmag Angler for extra strix/snapcasters. It might be an approach to grind out better but sometimes i find a dumb beat stick like angler does wonders, especially if we need a faster clock in game 1, e.g. combo etc. What are your views on this?

P.S Noah's list for the team constructed event looks sweet, with a md pyroblast and sb sylvan library.

EDIT:
Derp. You can read my quote below. I was thinking MC was instant speed.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

@ozimek While Nestalim hit fringe points for Marsh Casualties; the real reason for it is that it's instant speed for Elves. Being able to wipe their board after they go deep for a hoof or in the middle of trying to Elf-Ball during a Glimpse, you can really munch them. It's also a huge difference between T2 and T3. T2 instant speed lets you be *very* prepared, and it means you can keep laying down 2-mana threats when you get to 4 mana, which again, is much easier compared to 5 mana. Elves is a defensive game a lot of the time, where you are mostly trying to not-lose[*]; since you're more heavily favored the longer the game goes.
[*]Note: This is my experience with other decks and I assume it applies here. My record with the last deck I was maining was 13-0 in matches against elves, and this is how I approached it.

Similarly, Casualties is mildly relevant against TES, where if they go off T1 you can live with Casualties, but are more likely to die with Deluge. Lastly, D&T is also weak to it; in particularly in response to one of their Gimmicks. For instance, let's say you bait a Wisp by Pushing a Thalia or some such; when they Wisp to protect her, you can casualties and still kill both of them [cast when the trigger is on the stack.] It may not be true CA in this case (since you also spent a push), but little edges like that are a big deal.

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Are you thinking of Zealous Persecution? Marsh Casualties is a sorcery...

The reason you see Casualties is because it doesn't kill your own dorks, since it affects target opponent's creatures only.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Are you thinking of Zealous Persecution? Marsh Casualties is a sorcery...

The reason you see Casualties is because it doesn't kill your own dorks, since it affects target opponent's creatures only.

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Well shit, that's a couple months of rust on my brain. I usually opt for Persecution or GCharm, as I usually find BB to be worse than GB or WB. But yeah, total goof on my part. I'll edit the other post

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Originally Posted by beta

What do you guys think of the recent lists that eschews Gurmag Angler for extra strix/snapcasters. It might be an approach to grind out better but sometimes i find a dumb beat stick like angler does wonders, especially if we need a faster clock in game 1, e.g. combo etc. What are your views on this?

P.S Noah's list for the team constructed event looks sweet, with a md pyroblast and sb sylvan library.

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I would never cut the Angler, I would rather play 2 but it's too hard to cast reliably

Hello everyone,

after being some kind of away for a long time (loam didnt feel right anymore after miracles was gone, had a lot of fun with Dragonstompy in the mean time) I found a new home that some kind felt familiar. This deck always reminded me of the value machine that aggro loam as for me, though it felt more flexible because of the blue cards. I played two smaller tournaments the last week, list was slightly different both times. This list felt more ok though:

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands

Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instant/Sorceries

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker

2 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope


//Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana of the veil
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pyroblast
1 Murderous Cut
1 Izzet Staticcaster


Main-Deck felt pretty good so far. Maybe the landbase needs a bit tuning, but I wanted to play my expeditions and I think that most of the times it was not the lands, that I drew that were wrong but me who fetched wrong. So I learned a lot about this deck is planning in advance, and trying to fetch accordingly. This does also mean that you take into consideration what your opponent might be playing with (Choke, Moon-effects, Wasteland). This is a big issue for me, because I always try to play fast and not taking my time to think everything through.

Some Ideas about the maindeck:Liliana, the Last Hope was my choice for the mirror, grixis delver and DnT. It never felt that good having Liliana of the veil against those decks. Moreover Liliana, the Last Hope does win games where Liliana of the veil does not (one could argue she does, but only through card-advantage, which I do not count here). I do not like Angler (I am a bit special about Artworks and Cards I like :D), tested Tasigur which was bad against Karakas and also some more Point-Removal which was often not good enough against dnt. Liliana, the Last Hope was often a Card my opponent had to deal with or lose to, especially when she is protected by a Baleful Strix. A short note here: It's not always that easy to chose a mode on here :D So maybe this is something to practise as well: Where do I +1 and where do I -2. In the end, I always thought I may miss a big beater, but never really happened.
I also thought about cutting 1 or 2 Force of Will and put those into the sideboard, adding more Hymn to Tourach or Pointremoval. Where I play there is often something like reanimator, Storm and also some miracle-lists, so I decided still leaving them in the main list.

The sideboard is another issue, I am not quite happy with that. Vendilion Clique felt great, one my some games and was quite flexible. Also the blasts where good. Faerie Macabre is some kind of lucky charm for me, it one me several games in other decks. Here it might be not the best card, since the only synergy is with the Kolaghan's Command and
Liliana, the Last Hope.. I am still not sure to cut it. What I felt - at least on saturday- was, that I had too much point-Removal. Bolt is again because of Dnt. Lost some games against Mirran Crusader, but maybe its not worth it, while Lightning bolt, is pretty flexibel though. Maybe the Murderous cut will go for a blue elemental blast, but I am not sure. I guess the cut is not that good since a lot of fair decks will bring in grave hate.

Short overview about the matches I had:
1. tournament
0-2 vs. Dark Maverick
1-2 vs. Grixis Delver
2-1 vs. Zombardement
2-1 vs. Goblins)

2. tournament
2:1 Pox
0:2 punishing maverick (lost first round because of a missed Leovold-Trigger...)
2:1 merfolk
2:1 dark depths
2:1 miracle standstill brew

I hope this may help somebody. It helped me thinking everything through again so far :D

I am always open for comments and suggestions.

Hey folks, just a heads up that I updated some minor info in the Primer (talked about some of the changing card choices, matchups, and added Noah Walker's first place list). I haven't been playing Czech too often as of late but I've seen the recent decklists and they are trending away from Counterspell in favor of Hymns and a slightly more diverse removal suite involving Edicts, Lilianas, and sometimes Red Blast.

I'm curious in particular about the switch to proactive disruption in the form of Hymn. Anyone have a concise theory on why Hymns are stronger now than they were before? Is it to out-grind the mirror? Any feedback from more recent/experienced players would be appreciated!

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Originally Posted by supachai

Hey folks, just a heads up that I updated some minor info in the Primer (talked about some of the changing card choices, matchups, and added Noah Walker's first place list). I haven't been playing Czech too often as of late but I've seen the recent decklists and they are trending away from Counterspell in favor of Hymns and a slightly more diverse removal suite involving Edicts, Lilianas, and sometimes Red Blast.

I'm curious in particular about the switch to proactive disruption in the form of Hymn. Anyone have a concise theory on why Hymns are stronger now than they were before? Is it to out-grind the mirror? Any feedback from more recent/experienced players would be appreciated!

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It is stronger than Counterspell against the popular deck of the Meta, aka Eldrazi and D&T. Being proactive is also important as playing 4c Pile, because you need to clock your opponent, so the interaction with Snap is more nuts, especially against combo decks.

I am not sure it is better in the mirror thought, as Counterspell to be a worse grinder card but it is far stronger in the late game, when players tend to topdeck their ressource.

Regardless I won't say it is stronger, but better in the current meta. I do like Counterspell against Jace.deck more than Hymn.

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

It is stronger than Counterspell against the popular deck of the Meta, aka Eldrazi and D&T. Being proactive is also important as playing 4c Pile, because you need to clock your opponent, so the interaction with Snap is more nuts, especially against combo decks.

I am not sure it is better in the mirror thought, as Counterspell to be a worse grinder card but it is far stronger in the late game, when players tend to topdeck their ressource.

Regardless I won't say it is stronger, but better in the current meta. I do like Counterspell against Jace.deck more than Hymn.

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I think this conclusion was settled two to three months ago. It is also a safer investment to drop a hymn on a combo player's head than try to hold up a clunky UU for cspell. You can't really advance your gameplan when holding up that much mana. The nature of the deck is typically more sorcery speed and running hymn, snap, hymn followed by Leo is pretty much gg against anyone. Also, hymn will randomly beat things you have no business winning against. I run 2 hymns and 1 cspell main. It's great to run into cspell after the initial dust has settled. I've racked up a couple 5-0s on modo and nabbed 5th at a 50 person tourney in October (undefeated in the swiss and losing to burn in the quarter finals.) I also run more bolts than most, as bolts are better for racing TNN and against planeswalkers (two weaknesses of the deck.)

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Originally Posted by TheKingslayer

I think this conclusion was settled two to three months ago. It is also a safer investment to drop a hymn on a combo player's head than try to hold up a clunky UU for cspell. You can't really advance your gameplan when holding up that much mana. The nature of the deck is typically more sorcery speed and running hymn, snap, hymn followed by Leo is pretty much gg against anyone. Also, hymn will randomly beat things you have no business winning against. I run 2 hymns and 1 cspell main. It's great to run into cspell after the initial dust has settled. I've racked up a couple 5-0s on modo and nabbed 5th at a 50 person tourney in October (undefeated in the swiss and losing to burn in the quarter finals.) I also run more bolts than most, as bolts are better for racing TNN and against planeswalkers (two weaknesses of the deck.)

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Thanks for the replies guys, that makes sense. I can definitely see situations where Hymn will just tear decks part. Do you have your list, Kingslayer? Having Bolts and at least one CS sounds like kinda where I want to be.

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Originally Posted by supachai

Thanks for the replies guys, that makes sense. I can definitely see situations where Hymn will just tear decks part. Do you have your list, Kingslayer? Having Bolts and at least one CS sounds like kinda where I want to be.

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It's nothing spectacularly different than most lists. Just a little more bolt action. I definitely had reservations on no big finishers when I first picked up the deck, but it hasn't been a problem. Bolt allows you to race, is an answer for Mirran Crusader, planeswalkers, Magus of the Moon...I also wouldn't leave home without 2 Decays. I tried a list with only pushes and bolts and I missed decay a lot. Have fun, and I hope you find a list that feels right to you.

Lands
4x polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained mire
3x Underground Sea
3x volcanic island
2x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4X Force of Will
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
2x K Command
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Counterspell
2x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek


SB
1x pyroblast
1x REB
1x Hydroblast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Lilly, the Last Hope
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Marsh Casualties
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Hymn to Tourach

Has anyone added Search for Azcanta and liked it, Having trouble finding the space personally.

I think Search for Azcanta is much more suited for reactive controls like Miracles, in here it just is ok, since it doesn't fit that well when you want to be proactive, what Czech Pile usually wants to be.

Agreed. I tried Search for Azcanta earlier in testing and didn’t think it was ideal for this shell. I like Sylvan Library and Liliana, the Last Hope much better in the permanent-based recurring source of card quality/advantage.


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Hi everyone I'm visiting from the grixis delver forums. I'm planning on playing delver at the upcoming GP and was wondering if you all could give me some tips. I know you guys are favored against grixis delver, but what are some recommendations for play patterns and card choices? I'm currently playing a pretty stock Bob huang list (2 pierce, 2 tnn, 3 y. pyro)

I've been playing against my brother on pile and am having terrible results pre and post board. I need some help! Thanks!

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Originally Posted by eyeownyu

Hi everyone I'm visiting from the grixis delver forums. I'm planning on playing delver at the upcoming GP and was wondering if you all could give me some tips. I know you guys are favored against grixis delver, but what are some recommendations for play patterns and card choices? I'm currently playing a pretty stock Bob huang list (2 pierce, 2 tnn, 3 y. pyro)

I've been playing against my brother on pile and am having terrible results pre and post board. I need some help! Thanks!

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I think there's a lot of work you can do on your own, especially since you already have a play partner who provides insight to the deck you're trying to beat. Now the premise of this of course is that both of you are interested in making the other person a better player, not to score virtual points on the who's-the-better-player board:

First of you should talk to him what he thinks his advantages and disadvantages in the matchup are. And don't brush the things he says off with “you'll win anyways” but take them seriously. Are there any cards either of you feel oblieged to force g1? Under which circumstances?

With this knowledge you should talk about boarding. Are there any cards the opponent is happy to see g2 because he feels like they have no significant inpact. Before you board any other cards you should always ask yourself “do I want forces in g2+3”? In other words are there cards that if they resolve they put me behind a significant amount?
Do any of you have any supposed trump cards for the matchup? What does the other person think about that card?

You can then jam some games with open hands, going and talking about play patterns, e.g. “I feel like I can play around x here because y.” or I'm ahead now, but I fear x from your side so I'm trying to dig for y.”.

Only then imo is it actually useful to jam some more games besides the initial first few where you get to know a deck for the first time.
If you have the necessary equipment you can also record one or two matches and rewatch it while going over your thought process and play patterns.

I can promise you that after this your understanding of the matchup will be significantly better, it'll help you much a lot more than jamming 50 games only to realize “oh shit, maybe cabal therapy IS bad in this matchup!”.

Then you can post specific questions like “do you think any side should keep in Fow? In my experience I found that... ”
You're far more likely to get answers for these specific questions because everyone can discuss this specific card/scenario throughly.

Edit: I just saw you posted some interesting questions in the grixis forum, why not repeat them here and get another point of view?

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

I think there's a lot of work you can do on your own, especially since you already have a play partner who provides insight to the deck you're trying to beat. Now the premise of this of course is that both of you are interested in making the other person a better player, not to score virtual points on the who's-the-better-player board:

First of you should talk to him what he thinks his advantages and disadvantages in the matchup are. And don't brush the things he says off with “you'll win anyways” but take them seriously. Are there any cards either of you feel oblieged to force g1? Under which circumstances?

With this knowledge you should talk about boarding. Are there any cards the opponent is happy to see g2 because he feels like they have no significant inpact. Before you board any other cards you should always ask yourself “do I want forces in g2+3”? In other words are there cards that if they resolve they put me behind a significant amount?
Do any of you have any supposed trump cards for the matchup? What does the other person think about that card?

You can then jam some games with open hands, going and talking about play patterns, e.g. “I feel like I can play around x here because y.” or I'm ahead now, but I fear x from your side so I'm trying to dig for y.”.

Only then imo is it actually useful to jam some more games besides the initial first few where you get to know a deck for the first time.
If you have the necessary equipment you can also record one or two matches and rewatch it while going over your thought process and play patterns.

I can promise you that after this your understanding of the matchup will be significantly better, it'll help you much a lot more than jamming 50 games only to realize “oh shit, maybe cabal therapy IS bad in this matchup!”.

Then you can post specific questions like “do you think any side should keep in Fow? In my experience I found that... ”
You're far more likely to get answers for these specific questions because everyone can discuss this specific card/scenario throughly.

Edit: I just saw you posted some interesting questions in the grixis forum, why not repeat them here and get another point of view?

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I do ask all of those questions with my play partner and we have answers to them, but the point was to get other people's opinions because we are just two dudes playing legacy and could have incorrect thought processes about the matchup.

As of right now obviously the hardest thing to get passed is their card advantage with strix and snapcaster mage. Sure, I know the game plan is to tempo them out, clearing the way for angler and delver to attack, but he usually stabilizes and I'm stuck top decking against his 2-3 cards in hand still. I feel like force is fine because strix and snap 2-41 me anyways, but I haven't been having good results both with force in the deck and without it.

And honestly I thought I asked pretty much the same questions in the grixis forum, but maybe not. I'm just trying to get multiple perspectives on the matchup and opinions on boarding. Getting the point if view from the opponent is great because often times we get one sided and think our matchup is great or terrible and just spew out cookie cutter advice that is obvious but not very helpful (ie angler and tnn are your best threats, or you need to tempo them out)

Thanks for the response.

Please share your opinions on different cards with us. We all very likely have an opinion on them anyways and it's a good way to get people talking.
Like you complain about vague answers but that's exactly what you get when you ask vague questions!
Besides people tend to get tunnelvisioned when e.g. a certain pro says something and everybody repeats it over and over, making it sound true though it isn't. I e.g. remember very well when everybody in the grixis thread echoed Noah Walker （who is still a great player）in stating that cabal therapies are good against shardless bug. He ended up correcting himself eventually, but it just proved that people sometimes automatically allign success with perfection.
Im case you don't know: Bob Huang made the grixis list you're playing to combat czech pile, claiming to be of not successfulll then at least content about the results.

Now let's e.g. hear your opinion on FoWs, Dazes and spell pierces in this matchup postboard. I think that's a good starting point since it would give away a lot of sideboard slots were we to cut one of these completely. And try to be more specific than “FoW is good when it resolves” or Daze is dead in the very late stages of the game, we ll know that.
Instead try to answer questions like “are you generally able to daze impactfull spells?” or “do you think FoW is save to play postboard or do pyroblast and flusterstorm provide too much blow-out potential?”.Also “is spell perce generally worth it considering the opponent can play around it by playing creatures when low on untapped mana?”