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PhanTom_It, were you unable to find a lot of the cards for your list? You are running a lot of suboptimal cards like shocklands, three Deeds, one Wrath, and one Damnation. Board sweeping is a major strength in this deck, and you were running very little. Good thing there is no Flash in your metagame. I think Flash is a more recent culprit for this deck's underdevlopment.
Yea, shocklands were in because we don't have enough true duals. There was enough board sweeping, imho. Besides, what would you take out? The 1-1 split of WoG/Damnation was in case of ********'s Meddling Mages. I honestly don't want to take Vindicates out or something like that. Maybe an Eternal Dragon but he can find me a land in case of mana screw cheaply. Tusker costs 2G, and if i don't have it?Quote:
Originally Posted by dre4m
I wouldn't play this if i knew that Flash was in. Thank goodness, our combo players think that that combo is too boring and opt for something more 'fun' like IGGy or Spring Tide. And getting all the cards for it when we are unsure of it's existence past June 1st is not affordable in an isolated community. Maybe after june 1st, if it isn't getting banned (although i hope it is)... nah, we'll play Extended instead then.
Nitpick: it's PhanTom_lt, not PhanTom_It. I'm Lithuanian, not Italian.
So, now that we all know this is a viable deck again, here is my current list.
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Plains
3x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
4x Pernicious Deed
1x Haunting Echoes
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Glittering Wish
2x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Gigapede
3x Eternal Witness
3x Krosan Tusker
SB:
2x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Grave-shell Scarab
1x Dueling Grounds
1x Crime/Punishment
1x Putrefy
1x Castigate/Gerrard's Verdict
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Rule of Law
1x???
I really like this build for a lot of reasons:
1. There are 4 Deeds and 4 Vindicates MD. I don't like taking any of them out of the main. I have Crime/Punishment and Putrefy to handle their board slots.
2. Dueling Grounds and the extra Hierarch out of the board make Gobs a pretty decent matchup. You can win most game 1's due to their lack of enchantment removal, and then it's a coin toss games 2 and 3, normally getting 1 isn't too hard.
3. It's just fun to play.
The sideboard isn't tuned yet. I'm not sure if I want GY hate in my board or what it should be if I do. Leyline normally gets blown up by deed, so it's kind of iffy.
I like the wish targets, with Hierarchs the Wishes are never dead.
I'm still tweaking. I think that, with no WoGs/Damnations main, Culling Sun as a Wish target is really a must. Punishment isn't amazing against Gobbos.
Do you really think that you will be Wishing for the second Heirarch more than you would want to Wish for Vindicate? Culling Sun needs to be in your board, and I would replace the second Heirarch with the Vindicate and put a fourth top in the maindeck as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
I feel like Dave Gearhart here.... The second Loxodon is not a wish target, it gets boarded in against gobs/fast aggro so that you have 7 MD.
VINDICATE IS BETTER MAINDECK!!!! That is why I have a Putrefy and a Punishment in the board. They do everything Vindicate does except hit land. Having 4 MD allows you to play it without wishing for it first. Against control they know what you have when you do that, I don't like my opponent knowing what I have in my hand when I don't have to let them know. Putrefy and Punishment both take out a Needle on Deed for the same price as Vindicate, and that is the biggest threat in most matches. It also gets around Mage chanting Vindicate.
I haven't found a need for Culling Sun in my gobs matchup yet. It seems to be working fine, but I do have an extra slot so I can try it out.
4 Tops MD is too many in my opinion. They are dead beyond the first, and I don't like dead draws. I like this deck because it has very few dead draws at any point in the game. With 3 you will normally see one pretty quickly.
Is four Deeds main and Culling Sun in the board better than three Deeds main and one in the board?
4 tops main is good because you always want to drop one first turn if you can, and you can shuffle one away if fyou get an extra.
4 Tops main is too many when you want other cards that do things in the deck. A lot of times Duress turn 1 is the right play, also STP is a good turn 1 a lot of the time. There are also the hands that you hymn turn 2, so a first turn top is irrelevant. I find 3 top to be plenty. If you wanna play 4 go for it.
Again, 4 Deeds MD is very good. It is better than 3 and 1 SB. You have alternate cards in the board that do the same thing. I haven't finished testing Culling Sun yet, but it seems like a decent choice.
Does anybody have an opinion on Gerard's Verdict vs Castigate? I am leading towards Verdict here, but Castigate is very good in combo matchups, problem being casting Wish and then playing Castigate turn 3 is often worthless in the newer faster meta.
And wishing for Gerrard's Verdict then casting it turn 3 isn't? Castigate hits a relevant card, while Verdict hits the cards they need least. In other words, Castigate almost guarantees you a card(and even when it misses, you know your opponent has nothing relevant), while Verdict has to be timed right to get ANYTHING, and thus provides anywhere from 0-2 relevant cards.
Even though Verdict doesn't hit relevent cards, Duress and Hymn are so good, that I only feel the need to run 2 more discard cards usually, and a 2 for 1 is really nice, relevance or not. So Verdict for me.
I agree with Bigbear that 3 Tops are enough. I always advocated for Divining Top and 3 is just the right number.
Idea to Bigbears list:
- 3 Tusker
- 4 Hymn to Tourach
+ 3 Wall of Blossoms
+ 4 Cabal Therapy
I always found Therapy to be a stronger card than Hymn in Control decks. Wall is nice, too, against Goblins and Mongoose.
If you go for Cabal Therapy maindeck instead of Hymn you can have an Orzhov Pontiff in your Sideboard as a -2/-2 effect against Goblins combined with killing their Ringleader backup.
And you really have to do something about the weakness against Counterbalance. If they have a Force of Will (4-off in each of these decks) and something with CMC3 (maybe Crucible, Thirst for Knowledge, Trinket Mage, Krosan Grip) in their Top 3 you are in serious trouble. Maybe 2 Krosan Grips in the SB can help against this. And they are a very flexible card in general.
If you have a top in your opening hand, your hand is undeniably much better. You can make this happen more often with four in the maindeck, and unless you have one in your opening hand, the top will make sure you never draw another one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
What? Therapy is best in aggro or aggro-control decks, where you can reliably flash it back. The two-for-one card advantage from Hymn is much better than maindeck Therapy in this deck. I would never replace Piggy with WoB, because WoB doesn't get you a basic when you need one, doesn't shuffle your library, and can't beat down ftw in desperate times.Quote:
Idea to Bigbears list:
- 3 Tusker
- 4 Hymn to Tourach
+ 3 Wall of Blossoms
+ 4 Cabal Therapy
I always found Therapy to be a stronger card than Hymn in Control decks. Wall is nice, too, against Goblins and Mongoose.
The odds of this happening are far to remote to warrant an otherwise undesirable sideboard card, and we dont' want maindeck Therapy anyways.Quote:
If you go for Cabal Therapy maindeck instead of Hymn you can have an Orzhov Pontiff in your Sideboard as a -2/-2 effect against Goblins combined with killing their Ringleader backup.
I'm actually not all that worried about the 'weakness against Counterbalance.' If they're keeping a FoW on top of their deck in fear of my Gigapede, I'll laugh and cast an Heirarch, which I play maindeck. If they are keeping a CMC 3 card on top of their library, Krosan Grip won't help you anyways, and if they are keeping FoW and a 3cc card on top, that means their draws will probably be suboptimal and I can take my time winning through with a Piggy or an Heirarch or anything else I could fancy.Quote:
And you really have to do something about the weakness against Counterbalance. If they have a Force of Will (4-off in each of these decks) and something with CMC3 (maybe Crucible, Thirst for Knowledge, Trinket Mage, Krosan Grip) in their Top 3 you are in serious trouble. Maybe 2 Krosan Grips in the SB can help against this. And they are a very flexible card in general.
Hmm, so every single statement I made is 100% wrong ^^
Well, the Therapy/Wall thing is just an idea, each card has advantages and disadvantages. The main reason for WoB over Tusker is Tempo: with 3 Witness, 4 Deed and 4 Vindicate your CC3 slot is pretty full while you have only 1 mediocre turn 2 play (Glittering Wish) and 1 unreliable Turn 2 play (BB Hymn with only 15 black sources). The main reason for Therapy is similar: it is faster and furthermore more precise. It will definetely hit the card that you are afraid of.
I don't doubt that Tusker and Hymn are "stronger", but they both cost 1 Mana more.
Still, I am not sure about that point, it was just an idea that you can test.
That's not true. Top is a lategame card and against decks like Goblins and Threshold with a good start a Divining Top n the opening 7 is not good because you don't have the time/mana to benefit from it. In these matchups Top is a pure lategame card that will let you win the if the game goes longer and so 3 are enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by dre4m
It is not that unlikely. Your opponent has to play Goblins and you need to have Therapy. It is also quite strong against Hanni Fish (Confidant, Mother) and Empty the Warrens token.Quote:
Originally Posted by dre4m
They will still draw 1 card each turn and even though your cards are superior that won't outweigh the problem that you can't play ~1/2 of your deck. If you invest a card you will always be able to hit Counterbalance or the Top with Krosan Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by dre4m
Fifteen lands that can find or produce black is a lot, in my opinion. You can also do a lot more on turn 2 than cast 2cc cards, like use your Top and StP something or any number of other permutations to make a great deal more than the 2 plays you described.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Wow! Your Therapies must read differently than mine, because mine only hit if the card I name is in their hand. The only time Therapy will definately hit is if you know the contents of your opponent's hand.Quote:
The main reason for Therapy is similar: it is faster and furthermore more precise. It will definetely hit the card that you are afraid of.
You will not autolose to Thresh or Goblins if you play a turn 1 Top. Threshold is as close to an auto-win as you can get with this deck, and Top is an amazing card against them that keeps your draws consistently better than theirs. I will occassinally side out 1-2 Tops vs Goblins, but it is still good T1 on the play, and Goblins does not comprise the entire metagame.Quote:
Top is a lategame card and against decks like Goblins and Threshold with a good start a Divining Top n the opening 7 is not good because you don't have the time/mana to benefit from it. In these matchups Top is a pure lategame card that will let you win the if the game goes longer
I broke up these statements because one does not necessarily follow the other, yet you justified the latter with the former. Top is awesome agains thresh and mediocre against Goblins, but that does not mean that three are enough. You didn't justify the number three at all.Quote:
and so 3 are enough.
You forgot "and you have to have a Glittering Wish, then you must cast the Pontiff successfully, hopefully not surrendering any advantage during the 2 turns you took doing this when you should probably have cast Deed or Damnation."Quote:
It is not that unlikely. Your opponent has to play Goblins and you need to have Therapy. It is also quite strong against Hanni Fish (Confidant, Mother) and Empty the Warrens token.
You are only unable to play half your deck if they manage to keep a 3cc and a 5cc card on top of their library, all the while refusing to crack fetchlands or play tutors of any variety. Also, Counterbalance doesn't see all that much play, anyways.Quote:
They will still draw 1 card each turn and even though your cards are superior that won't outweigh the problem that you can't play ~1/2 of your deck. If you invest a card you will always be able to hit Counterbalance or the Top with Krosan Grip.
In summary, play 4 Tops, and don't worry about Threshold.
Ok, I don't have a lot of time right now, but I just want to say that Krosan Grip does not stop counterbalance. It is a triggered ability and can therefore counter split second spells.
@Tao, the only reason I want Tusker over WoB is it shuffles for Top. Therapy is in my board, I like it that way. It is much better game 2, with Hymn being better game 1.
@dre4m: Justifying 4 tops by saying that you can side them out against gobs is about the worst reason I have ever heard to play 4 of a card. You admit that Top is not amazing early against Goblins or Thresh, the two most played decks in Legacy. If you admit that it is not needed against two of the most popular decks in the format, then why would you want to play 4 of them??? You have essentially justified running three of them for us, so thanx. And to defend Tao, three does not need to be defended because once you realize 4 is too many, three is the only other option, as 2 is not enough. Three pretty much ensures you will see it in the early/mid game, and not see too many of them.
Also, about Counterbalance.... have you been playing lately? Counterbalance is making its way into a lot of Thresh decks. It was in the GP winning deck also, I know Flash is gone in a couple of weeks, but people will still see the card and play it more. I don't think we can underestimate Counterbalance in the format. Punishment helps there. You also underestimate counter/top, they can fetch and play tutors all day long, that is the point of the deck, and if they do hold their fetches/tutors to keep a 3cc on top, it will be a huge problem as it will be VERY hard to win through that. Most blue decks will also play more than just force and balance, so they probably have more outs to stop the removal.
@Orzhov Pontiff: This guy is kind of interesting. The only problem is the fact that STP negates the haunt, so there has to be another way of killing the haunted man. He will have to be tested.
For the Balance vs. Grip thing:
If you are in the situation that they have CC3 and CC5 on Top you will usually still get through that with Grip. They have to re-organize their cards before drawing so that they don't draw the CC3 and CC5 card. So between your EoT step, their upkeep and their draw step you will always have at least a 50% chance of hitting with Grip - pretty interesting mind games there. But if you don't reveal that you hold a Grip there is a good chance that they don't know what you plan, and you can hit pretty safe.
Another option is to play strong cards like Hymn to Tourach, Swords to Plowshares or Sensei's Divining Top into their Balance: If they counter it with Balance, Grip is 100% safe. If they don't use their engine, that's good for you, too.
I don't know if Grip is the right card. You already have Vindicate, Deed and a Wishboard so you won't find other matchups where Grip is really needed. But it is not dead, too. It is quite strong in the mirror, against Survival variants, Staxx, Chalice Aggro like Faerie Stompy and rogue decks like Scepter or Affinity.
I can't think of other good options to fight against Balance.
When and where did I say that? I'm pretty sure my response went like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
Where does that say that siding them out is the justification for playing four? I just said that you COULD side them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by myself
When did I say that top is not amazing early vs Thresh? It is undoubtably your second-best T1 play vs threshold, second to Duress. Of course it is not good early against Goblins, but neither is Duress. Are you thinking about not playing 4 Duress? I certainly didn't say anything about justifying playing 4 by siding them out, and I would never say that it's a bad early play vs Thresh.Quote:
You admit that Top is not amazing early against Goblins or Thresh, the two most played decks in Legacy.
I definately didn't say that it wasn't needed. In my opinion, it's always needed, as it's the best card in the deck. That's why I play four of them. I like to play four of the best card in my deck. I never used the phrase "not needed" EVER in my discussion of Top and Truffle Shuffle.Quote:
you admit that it is not needed against two of the most popular decks in the format, then why would you want to play 4 of them??? You have essentially justified running three of them for us, so thanx.
When did we realize four was too many? I must have missed your justification for this in the middle of all the stuff that I didn't say.Quote:
And to defend Tao, three does not need to be defended because once you realize 4 is too many, three is the only other option, as 2 is not enough. Three pretty much ensures you will see it in the early/mid game, and not see too many of them.
Yes, and "lately" was a format dominated by Flash, in which Counterbalance was much more useful.Quote:
Also, about Counterbalance.... have you been playing lately?
I would like you to read this, pause for a second, and then read the quote that directly followed it in your post. The "whole point of the deck" is to "fetch and play tutors all day long." This must be some super-secret countertop deck that I haven't seen yet.Quote:
You also underestimate counter/top, they can fetch and play tutors all day long, that is the point of the deck, and if they do hold their fetches/tutors to keep a 3cc on top, it will be a huge problem as it will be VERY hard to win through that. Most blue decks will also play more than just force and balance, so they probably have more outs to stop the removal.
Verbal warning. Tone it down a bit. ~ Nightmare
1) Tops are redundant if more than one is in play. Drawing a 2nd top means you did not draw something useful, you only ever want to see one top. If there is a card you only want to see as a 1-of, you run 3 of it. 4 You run if it is a card you MUST see and you don't mind having several copies of it in play. Truffle Shuffle does not NEED Top, but with its large number of shuffle effects it is able to use Top to a much greater extent.
2) Saying Top is your 2nd best turn 1 play vs Thresh when it is one of TWO possible turn 1 plays against Thresh means nothing. It is your WORST possible turn 1 play against Thresh in addition to being your second best.
3) Duress can hit Vial. Top can't. Yes, it is that important. Duress messes with combo. Top doesn't. Duress improves your matchup against aggro by hitting nasty spells (like burn) early on. Top takes time to do that.
4) To answer your question of when did anyone find 4 top to be too many, years ago.
5) Counterbalance is a strong card and people are starting to use it more. Remember that Truffle Shuffle does not have an inflated curve like Stax, or can dodge counterspells like Wombat. Against any deck running CounterTop keeping a 5cc on top of your library is extremely easy (hello FoW) and only Thresh suffers from a severe lack of 3 drops.
If you already have a Top in play, can't you use it with your shuffle effects to shuffle away other Tops?