[Deck] Dragon Stompy

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Originally Posted by Phantom

The one thing I have to disagree with Taco about (and lord knows I don't do that lightly) is Sulfur Elemental. I love this guy. I was always hesitant to run him in the sweeper version, but he's perfect now. Ignore the white creature ability. All that lets you do is trade with Grunts and kill a Decree token. The fact that he is an uncounterable instant is huge in a deck that runs Jitte. He is a Vial like combo trick all on his own. He is also possibly the best way to kill a Mongoose ever. I love dropping a Jitte on turn one, undazeable Sulfur EOT 2. Untap turn 3, equip, win. Even if he dies having an active Jitte is such a big deal for this deck, especially in the goyf meta we live in.

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Okay, these are all highly valid points, sans my personal feeling that nobody in their right mind plays Jotun Grunt. The EOT Elemental, Untap, Equip, Swing thing is pretty good for catching someone off guard.

Yet here's the catch. Most decks where it would be necessary or relevant to do this EOT or with Split Second aren't matchups where I keep Umezawa's Jitte in the deck. I personally prefer to board out Jitte against Threshold in favor of some combination of Crypts/Moons/Trinispheres/Powder Kegs, so the Sulfur Elemental trick would only be relevant on game 1, although I suppose at this point the strategy could simply change to keep Jitte -in-. I certainly wouldn't want it against Landstill though.

And while he's neat for taking out a Mongoose here, he's still weaker than every other creature in the deck against Threshold except SSG. Although, admittedly, he resolves where others don't.

So what would you cut, if you wanted the Sulfusaurus? One Blood Moon and one Slogger's an easy enough cut for a pair, but is it worth it to shrink the overall size of your threats?

Would you rather I brought up the merits of killing Spectral Lynx than Grunt? lol.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Okay, these are all highly valid points, sans my personal feeling that nobody in their right mind plays Jotun Grunt. The EOT Elemental, Untap, Equip, Swing thing is pretty good for catching someone off guard.

Yet here's the catch. Most decks where it would be necessary or relevant to do this EOT or with Split Second aren't matchups where I keep Umezawa's Jitte in the deck. I personally prefer to board out Jitte against Threshold in favor of some combination of Crypts/Moons/Trinispheres/Powder Kegs, so the Sulfur Elemental trick would only be relevant on game 1, although I suppose at this point the strategy could simply change to keep Jitte -in-. I certainly wouldn't want it against Landstill though.

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I board out Jittes as well in the Thresh and Landstill matchups (I sometimes leave one in to add a needle target that won't be card disadvantage, but that may just be my crazy brain) but I disagree that that is the only match where the EOT play is huge. I've used it to great efficiency against FS, Goyf Sligh, GAGOMY, Burn, Goblins, and all sorts of aggro decks that have the habit of tapping out and sending all their men at me.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

And while he's neat for taking out a Mongoose here, he's still weaker than every other creature in the deck against Threshold except SSG. Although, admittedly, he resolves where others don't.

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Minor point here but I've always disliked Razormane in the Thresh matchup, especially UGr. The card disadvantage is annoying, he rarely kills anything with his pings, he's dazeable as hell, Goyf can often match his damage output, and in addition to Krosan Grip, they have access to Ancient grudge. The guy is nuts when working well, but that seems to happen less and less in this matchup.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

So what would you cut, if you wanted the Sulfusaurus? One Blood Moon and one Slogger's an easy enough cut for a pair, but is it worth it to shrink the overall size of your threats?

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I think it will be ok. Turn 1-2 three power beaters are still pretty impressive (see Mongoose, Rotting giant) and lowering the curve is always nice. Also, even if he's just a placeholder for the cards you are about to board in, he makes the maindeck more consistent and less meta dependant (which I like but the merits can certainly be argued). I'll probably start with two in your build and see how he balances vs the Trini's and Blood Moons.

Wrapping up, I can certainly see the argument against running him, I just really think he adds a dimension to the deck that really catches people off guard (bonus when players have to stop and read the freaking card you played) and strengthens our equipment.

@Phantom : Would you mind updating the initial post in this thread to reflect the current state of this deck?

I think a lot of people would be interested in the current build + SB and how to side against Threshold, Goblins, Combo and such.

Okay I've probably gone insane but what are your thoughts on Mindless Automaton? Maybe as a singleton in place of a Masticore or a Blood Moon?
It is easy to cast, helps getting hellbent and helps you refill after a boardsweeper. It can also grow bigger than Tarmogoyf although it needs some time if you are already close to hellbent after casting it.

edit: quick update after some midnight testing.
First of all this deck is INSANE! Sorry for caps but someone has to say it. Mindless Automaton is -for lack of a better term- cute. You can pull some tricks with it and it is at least a 3/3 most of the time. I'd say it hovers around the Sulfur Elemental spot, maybe a bit higher. One last thing I totally underestimated Rakdos Pit Dragon. This guy is almost certainly the best creature in the deck. Better than Arc-Slogger and Razormane Masticore.

Me and my team just built a version of this deck today and find it to be very good, the list we settled on is:

// Lands
10 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
3 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [CH] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon

We decided that 4 Trinispheres MD and 6 Moons MD was appropriate because these cards cripple many decks in the format, and at the very least will hurt most people more than they will hurt us. The 2 MD Blood Moon's could possibly be Razormane Masticore or another bomb creature, but I'm not sure its needed. The SB is also still a work in progress, and I'm debating whether or not to include Pyroclasm SB, but it doesnt seem needed since Keg removes tokens more easily and goblins isnt too big of a threat anymore, what does every think?

I think you could safely remove the Spheres in the board and fit in Pyroclasm. Your combo MU is already really good with 14 disruptive cards and a uber fast clock.

I would try to fit in RazorCore. He is a monster and helps getting Hellbent. You could probably cut a Trini and a Jitte for him. Trust me, he is a beast.

Has someone considered Tahngarth, Talruum Hero as another replacement for the slogger/razorcore slot? Although I havent testet him its Vigilance (good Jitte carrier)+Ping for 4 seems quite handy. Plus: much better artwork than those ugly sloggers :tongue:

Here's my actual list:


// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [CHK] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 [UD] Masticore
3 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [8E] Blood Moon
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 4 Winter Orb

I replaced the two Trinispheres with one Masticore (teh beast itself) and one Blood Moon (I had often countered/killed my first BM/MagusOfTehWin) for more consistency as I often found 3-sphere nice but cuttable (strange word).
The Side's completely reworked, Orb for raping a Landstill near you, Keg for killing these pesky EtW Tokens, Needle to shut off the most problematic card of this deck: Deed. 3-sphere against Combo...
It works pretty good.

From:

[Report] Team Calosso storms Stratford!! regarding his equipment choices.

Parcher's list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

4 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rakdos Pit-Dragon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

2 Demonfire

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Originally Posted by kabal

@Parcher :

How did your equipment ratio work out?

Did you find one better than the other?

Was 5 too much equipment at times?

How often were you able to go Seething Song into 3cc creature + jitte Or SoFaI + equip ?

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I think it seemed about right. Objectively, I would say Jitte is better. But experience showed that SoFI was. Regardless of the thousands of words written on how Jitte crushes Joblins, in this deck SoFI is better. The are few players better at Legacy Joblins better than Folinus, and he actually oversideboarded against me, as he knew if SoFI lands on a Slogger, Raiders, or Dragon the game is over. And as most good Goblins players, he knows how to deal with Jitte.

Jitte is cheaper, and the life bump can be relevant, but this deck has to go balls to the wall to win most of the time and I'd rather have a more relevant clock than the life and creature protection. I would say both the split, and the count worked well.

I actually don't think I every used Song for cast+equip in the tournament, but it happened often in testing. The reason I think is that most decks can still deal more easily with a 4/5 than an artifact. So most often I cast out the equipment early as bait. If they deal with it, and you couldn't have put out a significant threat that turn, you have lost nothing. If they can't deal with it, you will be able to equip anything you cast before it swings, so even Sulfur becomes an immediate threat. This is another reason I favor SoFI. Getting in for 5+2 is far better than accumulating counters for later use that might never happen. Especially against decks that can't block because of SoFI.

An ancillary bonus is the pro-Red/Blue. Bounce is rare, but can really wreck you. And people will gladly 1 for 2 to get rid of a Slogger with Burn, or Burn+Chump. The only other relevant removal is StP, as we should crush Black decks. Since you want Chalice at one anyway, I can't see where any of this would make me switch.

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I tend to agree. I still not sure about 5 slots for equip, granted I have not done that much testing.

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Originally Posted by kabal

@Phantom : Would you mind updating the initial post in this thread to reflect the current state of this deck?

I think a lot of people would be interested in the current build + SB and how to side against Threshold, Goblins, Combo and such.

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I'm actually thinking about starting a new thread since so much of this one is irrelevant, but I'll at least throw Parcher's list that placed at the top.

Tahngarth isn't quite good enough to make the cut, though I did try him out for awhile and he could be decent from time to time. The :3::r::r: cost is incredibly taxing, and one of the high points of Razormane is that you can play him off Red Source/Tomb/City, which you'll get more often than not. Covetous Dragon would actually be better due to his mana cost being awesome, but if you've been reading you know my opinion on Dragon.

Frenetic Ogre is interesting to toy with in the Razormane Slot. He's much more synergistic with the Hellbent guys than Razormane as he doesn't require you keep a card in hand to stay alive next turn, and being able to pound for 8+ while facilitating Hellbent is pretty neat. However, I'm not sure if I can stomach :4::r: for a 2/3.

Dwarven Strike Force also works well with the Hellbent guys.

Tephraderm is my current test slot, and he's also proving interesting, as it can take down Tarmogoyf with the best of them.

I'm also trying to test out Hunted Dragon in a build with Pyroclasm and Powder Keg maindecked and Arc Slogger eating the knights. I'll let you know how this works.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [CH] Blood Moon

We decided that 4 Trinispheres MD and 6 Moons MD was appropriate because these cards cripple many decks in the format, and at the very least will hurt most people more than they will hurt us. The 2 MD Blood Moon's could possibly be Razormane Masticore or another bomb creature, but I'm not sure its needed. The SB is also still a work in progress, and I'm debating whether or not to include Pyroclasm SB, but it doesnt seem needed since Keg removes tokens more easily and goblins isnt too big of a threat anymore, what does every think?

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Sphere of Resistance is a terrible idea in this sideboard due to the fact that it couldn't be more dyssynergistic with Trinisphere if you attached repelling magnets to the two cards. Ditto for Thorn of Amethyst. Plus, again, you have nothing to back up your mana denial.

Pyroclasm might be worthwhile to include in its slot (Or Rolling Earthquake if you feel rich), as you'll find it insanely good against more than just Goblins/Goblin Tokens. It's good against a ton of random aggro decks including Suicide Black, and Pyroclasm is the -only- thing that gives you a fighting chance in Enchantress (Though you don't have much of one anyway, truth be told.)

I think 6 moons is sort of minimal, and strangely I wouldn't advocate you cutting them for Razormane. I would however suggest your threat count is low and you'll suffer horribly if you get to a midgame.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Tephraderm is my current test slot, and he's also proving interesting, as it can take down Tarmogoyf with the best of them, and Chalice-1 keeps his drawback from completely owning you against bolt-packing decks.

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Tephraderm


4R (5), Creature - Beast 4/5
Whenever a creature deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that creature.
Whenever a spell deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that spell's controller.


How is that a drawback in the context you stated?

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Originally Posted by kabal

Tephraderm


4R (5), Creature - Beast 4/5
Whenever a creature deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that creature.
Whenever a spell deals damage to Tephraderm, Tephraderm deals that much damage to that spell's controller.


How is that a drawback in the context you stated?

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Nevermind. I'm on crack. I had this idea at about 3am yesterday and misread the card.

That certainly makes Tephraderm a potential bomb.

I've tried out some of these and here are my thoughts:

@Tahngarth: I like the Vigilance, but I don't like that he dies to a 4/5 Goyf so easily, and his special ability is FTK-like which already got cut.

@Frenetic Ogre: I tried (and you can too) to talk yourself into this guys damage and hellbent potential, but a 5cc creature that's boltable is unplayable in the current meta.

@Dwarven Strike Force: see above.

@Tephraderm: Wow. This guy looks promising. (what drawback???)

@Hunted Dragon: I think I have about as much experience with Hunted creatures in Legacy as anyone not named UrDraco, and I'm not sure I would run them in the current meta or without Brand. Counterspells and targeted removal just wreck hunted, and even if you run 8 or more ways to kill the tokens, you can't guarantee yourself one without some sort of tutor or draw. This is a pretty interesting case though since he has haste, he's the one Hunted that can win the damage race. I might try a side build that features him. Hell, Brand is even playable with Chalice since it cycles, but I'm not sure it would be worth it running only 4 Hunted critters. Anyway, I don't think he works in this build without some serious reworking.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

@Tephraderm: Wow. This guy looks promising. (what drawback???)

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Exactly and the fact that he only has 1R in his CC is hugh.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

I've tried out some of these and here are my thoughts:

@Tahngarth: I like the Vigilance, but I don't like that he dies to a 4/5 Goyf so easily.

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Ah, but using his ability with damage on the stack will take down the Goyf as well. However, it's worth noting that this is essentially using :4::r::r::r: to destroy a Tarmogoyf that costs :1::g: and not generally a great idea.

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@Frenetic Ogre: I tried (and you can too) to talk yourself into this guys damage and hellbent potential, but a 5cc creature that's boltable is unplayable in the current meta.

@Dwarven Strike Force: see above.

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Despite that Bolt is hard to cast against this deck due to Chalice, I more or less agree and this is why I don't play either one of these guys despite the slight potential.

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@Hunted Dragon: (Snip) I don't think he works in this build without some serious reworking.

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I think you're more or less right and I don't expect a lot of great results. Plus, he's always subject to a removal spell, in which case you spent :3::r::r: and possibly some cards just to give your opponents three Knights. And there aren't enough Kegs and Clasms in the world to make that worthwhile. The plus side is that unchecked, said Dragon -outraces- the Knights. And, to momentarily revel in scrubbery, he fits the whole "Dragon Stompy" motif.

EDIT: It's worth noting that any build with Tephraderm better abandon the concept of maindecking Rolling Earthquake completely. Fortunately that's been mostly cut anyway. Pyroclasm in sideboard still shocks you for 2, but that's a minor drawback.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

EDIT: It's worth noting that any build with Tephraderm better abandon the concept of maindecking Rolling Earthquake completely. Fortunately that's been mostly cut anyway. Pyroclasm in sideboard still shocks you for 2, but that's a minor drawback.

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The question is, what comes out for Tephraderm? Rakdos Pit Dragon? Arc-Slogger? How many Tephraderm is the right number?

Obviously anyone is going to have a touch time with this, since Tacosnape just mentioned the beat today, but worth thinking about.

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Originally Posted by kabal

The question is, what comes out for Tephraderm? Rakdos Pit Dragon? Arc-Slogger? How many Tephraderm is the right number?

Obviously anyone is going to have a touch time with this, since Tacosnape just mentioned the beat today, but worth thinking about.

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This is the million dollar question. Tephraderm is going to have a hard time cracking the lineup.

Razormane Masticore is what would have to come out (Unless you look into cutting Equipment/Trinispheres/Moons), so he's the beast that you're comparing Tephraderm to. Despite that Razormane singlehandedly can win you games, he dies the next turn after you go Hellbent unless you re-introduce Squee, Goblin Nabob into the fold. Slogger, in my opinion, got better than Razormane once the deck became more Hellbent reliant with Gathan Raiders.

Razormane is eventually going to be phased out of the deck when a better large threat becomes available, as he's not nearly as godly as he used to be due to the deck evolving into what's essentially a Hellbent deck (Please, Wizards, give us one more Hellbent badass in Red...), but as of yet I'm not positive that threat's arrived.

Rakdos Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders will never get cut below 4 and 4. Raiders is the best creature in the deck and Pit Dragon's a very close second. Slogger can be run as low as 2 or as high as 4, and Slogger >> Tephraderm. You can't cut SSG for Tephraderm or casting him would become even more difficult. And you certainly don't want to cut Magus of the Moon as ungodly strong as he is in the current metagame.

I think I would play Tephraderm if I expected an assload of Threshold. Of all the matches I can think of, this is the one where I would want him the most, as he can swing fearlessly into anything they have on the board and fearlessly block anything they can swing with (Except Mystic Enforcer, who waves down at Tephie as he flies overhead.) However, it's worth keeping in mind that he walks around with a large sign on his forehead that says "Daze me, plz, thx." I'll test him some more in the next few days and see how he does.

Also, don't forget that Flametongue Kavu is still waiting in the wings, eager to reclaim his spot in the deck with his delicious mana curve and smallguy-eating ability.

I have already gone -2 RazorCore, +2 Tephraderm. With trying to get hellbent in this deck, RazorCore becomes a terrible topdeck. How did we not see this beast before? He eats GOYF!!!

Demonfire has been interesting for me in testing. It was okay in control MUs where my board state was horrible. Saving up my mana for it to kill was a beneficial plan, but this was not against anything with a fast clock, so I am not sure if it could do anything to Landstill where they actually will kill you faster with man lands. However, it was terrible in every other MU. I think Blood Moons are going in as a 2 of MD.

Against blue-based control Winter Orb is doing fine too in my testing. It's also a great help against some of the Loam decks and MWC or Rifter variants.