[Deck] UWb Fish

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Originally Posted by Windux

Here is what I'm gonna play:

// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tundra
1 [b] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [7E] Duress
3 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [PC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TE] Perish

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I really want to see a 3rd Engineered Explosives in the board to fight Chalice of the Void. Disenchant is good as well for fighting AEther Vial, and Chalice of the Void from Goblin's side. You should cut probably

Cut: 2 Perishes, 1 Pithing Needle
For: 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Disenchant

I really want you opinions on those SB changes.

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Surprise, Surprise.
"This is Fish? This is shit"..No, no really.
It's really great to play in a meta with much Mirror, NQG (coming soon... with Tarmogoyf) and now Hulk Flash.

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I heard people say I should've deserved that win against WUb Fish with UGw Threshold, because Fish is a bad deck.... I disagreed with them. I got lucky and got Enforcers each game with TONS of counters I topdecked to keep him safe. I really shouldnt have deserved that game.

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The Counterbalance is more often useful then useless.
It's like:
You hate Goblins preboard (which you do anyway),
but you love the Mirror, Combo, NQG, Suicide/Red Death/Ale even more.

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It's a great card. I'm glad you and Tao love it. I'm not sold on it pre-board, but with HF, it should be considered.

[quot]I dropt Avenger due you don't even need him. Why? You just play the TMWA-tactic:
You don't want to win, you want to ping your opponent until he get's crazy and scoops (or beaten by Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage ;P ).
I'm just so happy with this list. You don't have to fear against Hulk Flash and your matchup against nearly every deck is not increased ("nearly every != Goblins").[/quote]

TMWA is a great deck. It's great that you run the Soft lock and based it off that deck's strategy. When I play WUb Fish, I think of Marc Perez's Ur Fish that he won with, but with different tempo cards instead.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Post-FS, I still don't think the Counterbalances are worth it. They are too slow and you don't have that kind of time against Hulk Flash.

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Doesnt matter. They draw better than you anyways with like 4 Scrolls, 4 Mystical Tutors, 0-4 Cunning Wish, and 3-4 Flashes. Counterbalance allows you to win those attrition wars, because both of you will exhaust eachother at that point.

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They are obviously great vs the mirror matches but I think, if anything, they'd be better as a sideboard option.

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Or you could've agreed with what I said earlier about Couterbalance, which is exactly what I stated.

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You also run only 14 creatures to support Jitte, 3 of them being Mother of Runes. I'm not quite sure if this is enough or not.

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I know Lenny Thao who happens to be a local player did well with just 14 creatures. Instead of Grunt, he ran Negator though. He was probably th bes Fish player I've ever seen. When I play at thoe monthly Monster Den tournaments, I think he is the one person I really dont want to play against.

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Or you could've agreed with what I said earlier about Couterbalance, which is exactly what I stated.

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I was talking about in a post-FS Hulk Flash meta filled with tons of Fish. I would never run, SB or MD, Counterbalance in Fish before this whole Hulk Flash fiasco... and I'm not sure if I would even run them then (if you look at the list I presented).

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Doesnt matter. They draw better than you anyways with like 4 Scrolls, 4 Mystical Tutors, 0-4 Cunning Wish, and 3-4 Flashes. Counterbalance allows you to win those attrition wars, because both of you will exhaust eachother at that point.

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How will I lose attrition wars? I'm only going to lose if they race me before I can go anything. If the match lasts longer than a few turns, there is little chance that I lose the attrition war. They exhaust their resources on trying to piece together combo cards (especially with Mystical Tutor), and I answer them. If it comes down to attrition, I don't see how they will exhaust me. I'm running 22 disruption cards postboard (post FS):

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
4 Leyline of the Void

Not only that, I'm running Dark Confidant. Confidant easily out gases them, even if I were to run less disruption or whatever. I'd say that my 8 cantrip about matches there attempts to keep fueled. Not only that, but they only have so long to recover the exhaustion war before they die from a clock. So if you're talking about exhaustion, Counterbalance is highly uneccessary. The only time Hulk Flash is going to steal wins is when they win the early game race, either by going before I can do anything or by going off early and protecting it, which Counterbalance will do nothing for.

Counterbalance would only be truly strong for the Fish mirror, and that will most likely be highly relevant. In that case, it's SB material. We do not yet know what all else will be present in the metagame.

I do not drop a so strong card like Counterbalance, only because I fear of Goblins.
What is when I play against Goblins? At least 1 Counterbalance I can shuffle away easily, without losing any on consistancy.

I know how good Avenger is against Goblins, but since they are running 8 Disruptionlands it's not that quite possible to cast Avenger early.

The reason why I run Perish is, because they run alot of NQG here.

And about Disenchant vs Vial:
I'm playing Needle. Needle shuts down Vial, Wasteland, Port, SCG, Kiki-Jiki, Gempalm Incinerator, Engineered Explosives

And Disenchant? Explosives (if they drop it unsafe), Pillar (which is run here instead of Chalice. This is not America ;P ) and VIal

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Originally Posted by Hanni

How will I lose attrition wars? I'm only going to lose if they race me before I can go anything. If the match lasts longer than a few turns, there is little chance that I lose the attrition war. They exhaust their resources on trying to piece together combo cards (especially with Mystical Tutor), and I answer them. If it comes down to attrition, I don't see how they will exhaust me. I'm running 22 disruption cards postboard (post FS):

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Meddling Mage
4 Leyline of the Void

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They run 8 pitch Counters, 4 Duress, 6-8 Tutors, and 4 Flashes. The big difference they can do this Turn 0 or Turn 1. If it does last long, they still have one of the greatest topdeck capabilities I have ever seen in this format.

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Not only that, I'm running Dark Confidant. Confidant easily out gases them, even if I were to run less disruption or whatever. I'd say that my 8 cantrip about matches there attempts to keep fueled. Not only that, but they only have so long to recover the exhaustion war before they die from a clock. So if you're talking about exhaustion, Counterbalance is highly uneccessary. The only time Hulk Flash is going to steal wins is when they win the early game race, either by going before I can do anything or by going off early and protecting it, which Counterbalance will do nothing for.

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If your relying on your Post-Board games, it's going to be 50/50 if they're in your favor Post-Board. Dark Confidant can draw you dead sometimes, but drawing into some proactive disruption can steal games, like Meddling Mage and Duress. I was never into reactive disruption.

Hulk Flash can still win the game against control decks, even outside of the early because of how powerful the quality of their cards are. If they play against Control, they'll just sit back and Scroll for FoWs, and Mystical Tutors for Duresses. Once they see you in a bad position, they'll go all-in against you. Technically, you cant claim HF has to go big or go home, because the other builds I've seen can still protect it's combo.

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Counterbalance would only be truly strong for the Fish mirror, and that will most likely be highly relevant. In that case, it's SB material. We do not yet know what all else will be present in the metagame.

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Truely? As in, only for the Fish mirror? I won games against Rifter and Truffle Shuffle before. Of course, they're highly revelent now. I can name more, but I'm feeling soo lazy right now to keep naming them. I mean, I won so many games with Counterbalance and sided in against every match-up but Goblins, everyone questions me if I'm going to run them maindeck.

Well Windux, I don't know what your meta looks like so changes based on meta make sense. For a meta with Goblins and other aggro, Avenger is extremely strong, even through Port/Wasteland. Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Umezawa's Jitte are the main tools that allow me to win the Goblins matchup game 1 and ensure that I don't lose games 2 and 3 often.

If your meta lacks Goblins and other aggro but is infested with combo and Thresh, Counterbalance seems like a perfect solution. The meta in America, before Hulk Flash, was simply way too random for Counterbalance... especially when the card typically improved already good matchups.

I don't think Counterbalance is good against Hulk Flash. It's simply too slow.

Now that Hulk Flash is around, Counterbalance will probably be strong against the other decks that will exist in the meta to beat Hulk Flash.

I do not think that Hulk Flash, before Future Sight, is strong enough to force a complete overhaul to the deck.

After Future Sight, the deck will need overhauled. The meta will shift, and cards that were strong before won't necessarily be strong after. Tuning for Hulk Flash itself doesn't seem that critical, since the deck should still put up good numbers against it simply by running maindeck Duress.

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Originally Posted by Windux

I do not drop a so strong card like Counterbalance, only because I fear of Goblins.
What is when I play against Goblins? At least 1 Counterbalance I can shuffle away easily, without losing any on consistancy.

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You do run Top and cantrips to deny drawing into them.

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I know how good Avenger is against Goblins, but since they are running 8 Disruptionlands it's not that quite possible to cast Avenger early.

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I always used Sword of Fire and Ice agaisnt Goblins over Jitte. Of course, that's just me...

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The reason why I run Perish is, because they run alot of NQG here.

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It does kill Mystic Enforcer....

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And about Disenchant vs Vial:
I'm playing Needle. Needle shuts down Vial, Wasteland, Port, SCG, Kiki-Jiki, Gempalm Incinerator, Engineered Explosives

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Gempalm is a threat. I always did like the European lists with Engineered Explosives...

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And Disenchant? Explosives (if they drop it unsafe), Pillar (which is run here instead of Chalice. This is not America ;P ) and VIal

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Thank god. Chalice is a hell to deal with from my point. I hevnt played against Goblins with Chalice yet.... most of them went for the 4 REB, 4 Crypt plan here. If not, 2 of each card....

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If your meta lacks Goblins and other aggro but is infested with combo and Thresh, Counterbalance seems like a perfect solution. The meta in America, before Hulk Flash, was simply way too random for Counterbalance... especially when the card typically improved already good matchups.

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So you call Truffle Shuffle, Rifter, The Rock, Angel Stompy, Landstill, TES, Red Death, and Psychatog good match-ups? In match-ups where all your disruption is only marginal, the best way to fight them is use different sources of card advantage that slows them down and give you card advantage in the process. Dark Confidant works here, but dies to Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, Nevinyrral's Disk, Engineered Explosives, and get's shut down by Humility good? I'm sorry, if you dont get Confidant to resolve, your fighting with synthetic card advantage.

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I don't think Counterbalance is good against Hulk Flash. It's simply too slow.

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I also realize people make overrated cards look underrated. Then again, this is soemthing to keep them from getting back in the game. They will get back in the game.

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Now that Hulk Flash is around, Counterbalance will probably be strong against the other decks that will exist in the meta to beat Hulk Flash.

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That's a good way to see it's use, but it's still good against Hulk Flash as well.

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I do not think that Hulk Flash, before Future Sight, is strong enough to force a complete overhaul to the deck.

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Future Sight is probably the reason why the deck is insane right now. Then again, it still would've been insane pre-Future Sight if designed right.

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After Future Sight, the deck will need overhauled. The meta will shift, and cards that were strong before won't necessarily be strong after. Tuning for Hulk Flash itself doesn't seem that critical, since the deck should still put up good numbers against it simply by running maindeck Duress.

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Not to mention it's also the fastest deck in 1.5 to find Force of Will.

Anti-American, it seems like I always hit a sore spot when I explain why I don't like your favorite card. All biases aside:

Counterbalance is not strong in most of the matchups you listed. While it may have some sort of use against some of them, that doesn't mean it's better than other cards available.

How is Counterbalance going to be good against Truffle Shuffle? They are running a ton of cards way beyond the 1cc-2cc spell range of this deck. Vindicate, Deed, Witness, so on and so forth. It may hit a few of their spells but that's hardly worth trying to get the card to work. There are much stronger options than trying to fit a 5+ card combo. Sorry.

I can apply similar reasons why the card won't be strong against the other matchups you listed. Additionally... since when has Tog been a metagame concern that forces me to want to have Counterbalance in the 75 cards of my deck?

Since when has TES been a bad matchup for Fish to warrant running a card for it? Improving good matchups while weaker matchups get worse seems retarded. My current maindeck beats Goblins and still beats TES. Why would I change it?

I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but Counterbalance isn't needed in this deck unless you're playing in a specific metagame that warrants its inclusion. It may be good in Threshold but it's not needed in here... at least it wasn't. I still wouldn't advise going to the GP with it, but after Future Sight it may be extremely strong, as I've said.

However, the card is not strong against Hulk Flash. It is too slow.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Anti-American, it seems like I always hit a sore spot when I explain why I don't like your favorite card. All biases aside:

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Actually I wasnt on tilt. I'm still throwing good reasoning out there. Besides, I'm giving you a view from my perspective of why I run Counterbalance. I could easily stop here in our discussion, but then they'll only see your side of the arguement if I stop. I'd prefer to keep going.

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Counterbalance is not strong in most of the matchups you listed. While it may have some sort of use against some of them, that doesn't mean it's better than other cards available.

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Armageddon is good against most of those decks, but it's narrow. I like Counterbalance because it wins. It's flexible and

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How is Counterbalance going to be good against Truffle Shuffle? They are running a ton of cards way beyond the 1cc-2cc spell range of this deck. Vindicate, Deed, Witness, so on and so forth. It may hit a few of their spells but that's hardly worth trying to get the card to work. There are much stronger options than trying to fit a 5+ card combo. Sorry.

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Force of Will. Counterbalance also protects your hand from Disruption that they try and throw at you. As for Vindicate, Deed, and Witness; Vindicate you really shouldnt care about honest, Deed should've been answered by Needle, and Witness is is going to resolve just to get a really bad piece of targeted removal back.

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I can apply similar reasons why the card won't be strong against the other matchups you listed. Additionally... since when has Tog been a metagame concern that forces me to want to have Counterbalance in the 75 cards of my deck?

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Hardly. It's just that theoretically, this deck loses to raw card advantage.

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Since when has TES been a bad matchup for Fish to warrant running a card for it? Improving good matchups while weaker matchups get worse seems retarded. My current maindeck beats Goblins and still beats TES. Why would I change it?

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Bryant Cook fought through Hanni Fish with ease. My teammate Will Setzer can easily fight through Hanni Fish with ease. I'm saying that it's hard for your deck to through EtW, especially with Orim's Chant now in the maindeck.

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I'm not going to go through the whole thing, but Counterbalance isn't needed in this deck unless you're playing in a specific metagame that warrants its inclusion. It may be good in Threshold but it's not needed in here... at least it wasn't. I still wouldn't advise going to the GP with it, but after Future Sight it may be extremely strong, as I've said.

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I agree. It's only good as a metagame option, but this should've been mentioned a long time ago before Hulk Flash.

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However, the card is not strong against Hulk Flash. It is too slow.

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umm... it's hand dependent really.

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Hardly. It's just that theoretically, this deck loses to raw card advantage.

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My Landstill matchup is actually pretty solid. I had to face Landstill at The Meandeck Open and went 1-1 against it. At the GPT, I had to face Landstill in round 1 and 2. Round 1 I went 1-1 against it and Round 2 I went 2-1 against it.

Decks that win by excessive card advantage usually require heavy mana investments. Winter Orb is far stronger against these decks than Counterbalance is... and if you notice, I have 2 Winter Orb in my sideboard. It's also alot easier to fit in the deck than 2-3 Top and 3 Counterbalance.

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Bryant Cook fought through Hanni Fish with ease. My teammate Will Setzer can easily fight through Hanni Fish with ease. I'm saying that it's hard for your deck to through EtW, especially with Orim's Chant now in the maindeck.

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What kind of list was the Fish player using and how good was that player with Fish? You're saying that the creator of TES, who obviously knows how to play the deck in and out, beat a player using Fish. Also, it's possible to lose to TES with Fish. The matchup isn't 100/0. Still, the matchup is favorable for the Fish player, MD Chants or no. With ease? Hardly. I'm sure he just walked all over the Fish player like the Fish player was playing Elves, right? EtW is also not very scary. The deck may have problems with it preboard, but definitely not postboard. Aside from the 3 Stifle, the deck has access to up to 6 cards... 4 Plague and 2 EE. Usually, I only bring in 2 of each. I find the matchup favorable, as I've only ever lost to TES with Fish a few times. The again, my opponent's may have been bad. If I were to play Bryant, I'm fairly sure I'd still find the matchup favorable. Is there anything odd about the fact that Fish has a good Tendrils combo matchup? I would hope not.

CB is alot more useful then Winter Orb is.

If you have 1cc and 2cc in the early games, you can stall for turns.
And if you have 2cc and 5cc in your top, you just win the game, because each counter he plays costs 2cmc or a handcard.
You just pay 1 each time to win the counterwar.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

My Landstill matchup is actually pretty solid. I had to face Landstill at The Meandeck Open and went 1-1 against it. At the GPT, I had to face Landstill in round 1 and 2. Round 1 I went 1-1 against it and Round 2 I went 2-1 against it.

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I random Stifle on a fetchland can screw BHWC Landstill over. The UWg builds are far more consistent with it's mana base, as well as more board sweepers for you to deal with.

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Decks that win by excessive card advantage usually require heavy mana investments. Winter Orb is far stronger against these decks than Counterbalance is... and if you notice, I have 2 Winter Orb in my sideboard. It's also alot easier to fit in the deck than 2-3 Top and 3 Counterbalance.

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But it's the fact you only side Winter Orb against Control decks... Counterbalance is good against both Control, and Combo as well. It's also best in match ups of attrition, like the Aggro-Control mirror and Control match ups. I doubt you would side something like Winter Orb in against Threshold. Winter Orb does answer decks like Landstill and Life from the Loam quite nicely, but it can be answered as well on their side. Counterbalance at least protects itself.

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What kind of list was the Fish player using and how good was that player with Fish? You're saying that the creator of TES, who obviously knows how to play the deck in and out, beat a player using Fish.

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It was probably Nightmare's list that he played against.

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Also, it's possible to lose to TES with Fish. The matchup isn't 100/0. Still, the matchup is favorable for the Fish player, MD Chants or no. With ease?

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I tend to see it as 50/50 from testing with Maindecked Chants. It keeps reactive cards from interacting with TES. Proactive cards like Meddling Mage doesnt really wreck TES. If it resolves one of it's anti-reactive disruption cards like Swarms or Chant, it will walk all over you.... well, not walk all over, but an EtW for 12 should be about right.

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Hardly. I'm sure he just walked all over the Fish player like the Fish player was playing Elves, right? EtW is also not very scary. The deck may have problems with it preboard, but definitely not postboard.

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Post-Board gets the TES player more Chants. But then again, the only thing the deck is scared of from your side are Duress and Meddling Mage.

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Aside from the 3 Stifle, the deck has access to up to 6 cards... 4 Plague and 2 EE. Usually, I only bring in 2 of each. I find the matchup favorable, as I've only ever lost to TES with Fish a few times. The again, my opponent's may have been bad. If I were to play Bryant, I'm fairly sure I'd still find the matchup favorable. Is there anything odd about the fact that Fish has a good Tendrils combo matchup? I would hope not.

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It's natural for Fish to have a good Tendrils match-up outside of T1. Also, I think it's the right move not to board in the full set of Plagues. The fact they're more Tendrils reliant Post-Board means that they will much rather have their Chants or Swarms to resolve in this game. If you play Plague in a nuetral position, call Xantid Swarm. I remember I stole a game or two by calling Insect with Plague and a Mage on Chant, meanwhile Confidant draws into more proactive disruption and other effective pieces of disruption as well.

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But it's the fact you only side Winter Orb against Control decks...

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No, actually. I bring in 3 Duress, 2 Winter Orb, and even 2 Pithing Needle in some cases.

I don't feel that I need the additional strength of Counterbalance for my Threshold matchup, and I already do bring in sideboard cards.

Winter Orb can be answered on their side, but it's very difficult for them to do so when they can only untap 1 land per turn. Typically, by the time they have enough mana to Deed for 2, I have a strong hand built up that can deal with it (Daze, Stifle, Force, whatever). Their Counterspells and such aren't effective when they don't have UU to cast them. They also cannot sculpt their hand good with cards like Fact or Fiction or cycling lands, so more often than not my hand sculpted from cantrips is going to have much better answers under an Orb. So in a sense, Winter Orb protects itself too. A resolved Orb is almost always GG against Control decks or similar decks that rely on lots of mana to out-resource me with card advantage.

As far as TES goes, I still find Meddling Mage awesome in this matchup. The problem many players have is not knowing what to name against TES. Xantid Swarm hardly scares me when I run 4 StP among other answers, and much less so when I bring in even more answers that also answer EtW. Orim's Chant is also not a huge issue... it's very strong for them, but they have 4 Chant's to compare to my whole suite of disruption: 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Duress, and 4 Mage. 17 disruption spells, outside of cards like EE and Plague, to deal with, what, 4 Chants? What would be really mean is if I boarded Chant's of my own and cut them off mid combo. However, I've found this matchup time and time again to be far better than 50/50 preboard and postboard. Maybe you haven't done that well vs TES with Fish, but I have.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

No, actually. I bring in 3 Duress, 2 Winter Orb, and even 2 Pithing Needle in some cases.

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In 2-4 Turns, the Landstill play will have 4 untapped lands for Wrath of God. Armageddon would be better against them, since it forces them to find land. I never liked Winter Orb at all to tell the truth.

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I don't feel that I need the additional strength of Counterbalance for my Threshold matchup, and I already do bring in sideboard cards.

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The additional strength from Counterbalance isnt win-more. When you play Counterbalance, you only expect it to be good against certain decks in the metagame. I expect it to be sided in against everything else in the metagame that isnt Chalice-based or Vial Goblins.

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Winter Orb can be answered on their side, but it's very difficult for them to do so when they can only untap 1 land per turn.

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Yes, but that's only BHWC Landstill that takes it hard. Versus the newer UWg Landstill builds, they will find land to go along with their untapped ones, just to play Wrath, Humility, Engineered Explosives, or Disenchant. Deed says add more mana for me to spend, WoG says NOW! EE is like Deed, but can be activated in a turn.

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Typically, by the time they have enough mana to Deed for 2, I have a strong hand built up that can deal with it (Daze, Stifle, Force, whatever).

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Daze and FoW yes, Stifle only hits Deed and EE, but not WoG and Humility.

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Their Counterspells and such aren't effective when they don't have UU to cast them.

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They usually dont tap out as often as they usually do, because Landstill is a reactive deck. So the only way Winter Orb is good is by forcing them to tap out in a counterwar, and then playing the Orb. Armageddon just makes them screw themselves over right there. With Winter Orb, they still have some leverage.

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They also cannot sculpt their hand good with cards like Fact or Fiction or cycling lands, so more often than not my hand sculpted from cantrips is going to have much better answers under an Orb. So in a sense, Winter Orb protects itself too. A resolved Orb is almost always GG against Control decks or similar decks that rely on lots of mana to out-resource me with card advantage.

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You have to spend the cards you find to answer them. Counterbalance does everything on it's own, and the cards you drew as cards to back up Counterbalance. In a way, you get both a Tempo advantage and Card Advantage, whereas Winter Orb only gives you Tempo advantage.

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As far as TES goes, I still find Meddling Mage awesome in this matchup. The problem many players have is not knowing what to name against TES. Xantid Swarm hardly scares me when I run 4 StP among other answers, and much less so when I bring in even more answers that also answer EtW. Orim's Chant is also not a huge issue... it's very strong for them, but they have 4 Chant's to compare to my whole suite of disruption: 4 FoW, 3 Daze, 3 Stifle, 3 Duress, and 4 Mage. 17 disruption spells, outside of cards like EE and Plague, to deal with, what, 4 Chants? What would be really mean is if I boarded Chant's of my own and cut them off mid combo. However, I've found this matchup time and time again to be far better than 50/50 preboard and postboard. Maybe you haven't done that well vs TES with Fish, but I have.

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So what are the chances of you drawing a Swords to Plowshares against a Swarm? Even if you do answer Swarm, you still have to deal with Confidant. Also, if you have 17 disruption cards, then theres

4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Burning Wish

Is that close enough? Those are just the control cards, look at their threat density now.

And yes, I have done well against TES, but that's with a different build than yours. I really havent tested your build against them yet, but they seem to do well with their playtesting against other people.

Well, I've yet to play against a Landstill list that wasn't 4c. There has been tons of Landstill around Ohio lately, but it's all been 4c. I figure it's probably the most popular variant anyway. I haven't tested against the other Landstill versions either.

My point wasn't meant to be about whether or not Winter Orb was stronger than Counterbalance against control decks. It was meant to be that when I've yet to lose a matchup to a control deck when I've resolved Winter Orb. Mainly Landstill, since it's the control deck I've seen and played against the most, the matchup goes back and forth alot. Game 1 is roughly 50/50, as I've won and lost game 1's about that often, and games 2 and 3 get a little better usually.

My other point was that it's alot easier to fit in 2 Winter Orb in the sideboard than try to fit the Counterbalance engine.

I'm still not sure how Counterbalance answers cards like WoG or Humility anyway.

Winter Orb is also really good at cutting off the card advantage engine. Fact or Fiction, etc. It's not that strong against Standstill, but it at least gives me the inevitability of knowing that if I do have a guy down, they won't be dropping manlands and attacking right away.

Fish is mainly a tempo deck, where tempo elements usually have problems with card advantage decks. Winter Orb restores my lost tempo, rather than trying to compete with card advantage, and puts me back in a good spot.

I'm not saying Counterbalance isn't good against control. I'm saying that I've been using Winter Orb to good success and I will continue to do so.

As far as the whole TES beating Fish debate, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really want to go into details on the topic. If players like Bryant beat Fish, I wish him the best of luck with his performance with the deck. If I get paired against TES, I'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Well, I've yet to play against a Landstill list that wasn't 4c. There has been tons of Landstill around Ohio lately, but it's all been 4c. I figure it's probably the most popular variant anyway. I haven't tested against the other Landstill versions either.

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I never really liked the 4c version. Test against Nightmare's list. It's probably one of the best lists I've seen in action in awhile.

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My point wasn't mean to be about whether or not Winter Orb was stronger than Counterbalance against control decks. It was meant to be that when I've yet to lose a matchup to a control deck when I've resolved Winter Orb. Mainly Landstill, since it's the control deck I've seen and played against the most, the matchup goes back and forth alot. Game 1 is roughly 50/50, as I've won and lost game 1's about that often, and games 2 and 3 get a little better usually.

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They have an awful Sideboard against you usually. If you board in 3 Vindcates and play LD with 4c Landstill, it'll just roll over you.

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My other point was that it's alot easier to fit in 2 Winter Orb in the sideboard than try to fit the Counterbalance engine.

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Counterbalance only needs 4 cards.... and it's very flexible. I'm sure that's the reason why Threshold players are running it, otherwise they would've switched to this a long time ago.

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I'm still not sure how Counterbalance answers cards like WoG or Humility anyway.

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No, it helps you win Counter wars against board sweepers, and Sensei's Divining Top provides you with consistent card quality.

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Winter Orb is also really good at cutting off the card advantage engine. Fact or Fiction, etc. It's not that strong against Standstill, but it at least gives me the inevitability of knowing that if I do have a guy down, they won't be dropping manlands and attacking right away.

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FoF is usually a really bad card to sculpt your hand with without Brainstorm in the deck, since FoF only gives them quantity, as quality means they have to sacrifice quantity. Counterbalcne keeps them from making their hands better after a FoF, as Brainstorm is the only thing that's helping it.

Manlands are weak, even Monasteries are weak. Mother of Runes, Jitte, and Needle take care of them already for you.

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Fish is mainly a tempo deck, where tempo elements usually have problems with card advantage decks. Winter Orb restores my lost tempo, rather than trying to compete with card advantage, and puts me back in a good spot.

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Not all of them, it's just decks like this generally. I dont see Feinstein Fish sucking against Meandeck Gifts and Control Slaver in T1. It sacrifices Card Advantage for disurption (or card quality if you will) and a clock. It wins because it keeps them off Tempo, yes, but in a format like 1.5, mana bases are more stable than T1's. So basically against control decks, you are actually playing to get control of the board, not gain card advantage. Card advantage is one way it wins, but keeps them from resolving a board sweeper is the way you win. Winter Orb is good, but again, Armageddon is better here at this job.

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I'm not saying Counterbalance isn't good against control. I'm saying that I've been using Winter Orb to good success and I will continue to do so.

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I realize Counterbalance is good in Threshold because it's skeleton and mana curve is much different from Fish's. Threshold uses more higher board quality threats and reactive disruption. This deck actually makes Counterbalance a fierce clock. Fish plays like TMWA where it keeps going until the opponent gives up to a critical mass of threats. Threshold goes for the throat while the opponent is in exhaust.

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As far as the whole TES beating Fish debate, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't really want to go into details on the topic. If players like Bryant beat Fish, I wish him the best of luck with his performance with the deck. If I get paired against TES, I'll be happy.

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I guess I should accept this as well then.

I think it's very difficult to bring in Vintage examples. Control decks like Gifts play a completely different game than control decks like Landstill. Landstill is a board control deck with mass removal for creatures. Similarly, Legacy Fish plays very differently from the way Vintage Fish decks do.

As far as Armageddons vs Winter Orb goes, I like Winter Orb better. I can drop it turn 2 as opposed to turn 4+. I also have to hold a land or two back in hand after I cast Armageddon, so it takes a while to ramp up that high. If they have a Crucible on the table, Armageddon becomes worthless. With Winter Orb, it hardly effects me at all and it hurts them alot. I like the fact that it's virtual.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I think it's very difficult to bring in Vintage examples. Control decks like Gifts play a completely different game than control decks like Landstill. Landstill is a board control deck with mass removal for creatures. Similarly, Legacy Fish plays very differently from the way Vintage Fish decks do.

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I see your deck very much alike Parc Perez's Ur Fish. You both combine constant card draw to abuse a mix of proactive and reactive disruption.

I brought up UW Fish because of it's philosophy, not the example really. It's a deck that wants to jump of out nowhere, take everything away from them, and beating them as badly as possible.

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As far as Armageddons vs Winter Orb goes, I like Winter Orb better. I can drop it turn 2 as opposed to turn 4+. I also have to hold a land or two back in hand after I cast Armageddon, so it takes a while to ramp up that high. If they have a Crucible on the table, Armageddon becomes worthless. With Winter Orb, it hardly effects me at all and it hurts them alot. I like the fact that it's virtual.

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You run it as a 2-of. I see it hard to get it in the opening hand. Also, if Crucible resolves, your losing anyway to the Wasteland lock. If you play Geddon with a Grunt or a Confidant active, your in very good shape. Then again, it's going into the discussion of whether you want to win small, or go big or go home...

After playtesting a bit with IBA, and considering his list (and similar lists) will probably be the most popular GP list for Hulk Flash, I've decided to retweak the deck a little. The deck still retains a solid matchup against Goblins but adds alot of additional strength against U/B Hulk Flash. I lose the Winter Orb's in the sideboard against Control matchups, but it had to be done. I've still performed well against 4c Landstill in the past without Winter Orb (either winning in game 1 or not drawing it postboard) and hopefully I don't run into alot of Control decks.

The new proposed version of U/W/b Fish, which I will play at the GP and after Future Sight gets released until the Hulk Flash combo gets banned:

U/W/b Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (16)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

The maindeck should look familiar: it's the MD I used to run for the longest time before deciding to drop the Duress to make my game 1 Goblins matchup more favorable. This deck still has a favorable Goblins matchup and I think that's one of the biggest strengths this deck has going into the GP. Most of the decks designed to beat Flash are going to have a horrendous Goblins matchup. This deck should beat Flash without sacrificing its Goblins matchup.

I'm wondering if maybe Pithing Needle could be dropped for the Winter Orb's. The reason I'm leaving it in there for now is because it comes in against Goblins, decks with Deed (where Orb would be better), and the Kiki version of Hulk Flash. I may decide to drop 2 Needle for 2 Orb depending.

I like the Vindicates in there. There will probably be lots of Chalice and Vindicate is pretty amazing at answering Chalice. Vindicate is also amazing against Thresh. It's strong vs Faerie Stompy, it answers the Dystopia's that B/x brings in, etc.

My current SB plan vs Hulk Flash:

-1 Mother of Runes
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

My current SB plan vs Thresh:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Vindicate
+2 Engineered Explosives

My current SB plan vs Goblins:

-1 Dark Confidant
-3 Daze
-3 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enjoy.

Hanni, your proposed list is really close to what I ran yesterday in testing against FS-Protean Flash (DotV w/wall and marauder version). I ran

-1 Stifle
-1 Serra Avenger
+1 Daze
+1 Extirpate (with 2 more in the board)

Preboard was awful. I went about 30/70 losing to raw speed when on the draw and FoW/PoN when on the play. The games I won were strictly when I was on the play. Resolving early Duress and having Mage or Stifle was the key.

Postboard was close to 50/50, maybe 55/45, but far from good. Extirpating either Flash or DotV was GG but getting them into the yard was problematic without a turn one Duress. Brainstorm hiding shit in response to Duress is infuriating. Getting DotV into the yard is almost impossible. It has to be countered when cast, killed in combat (not likely) or by Jitte counters.

I hate mindless, instant, :1::u:, 2 card combo decks.