the big difference between Mishras and Quicksand is that Quicksand allows you to play B2B and I would never play this deck without
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the big difference between Mishras and Quicksand is that Quicksand allows you to play B2B and I would never play this deck without
Quicksand is as dead as the Factory under B2B. Quicksand goes away after taking care of X/2. Factory goes away after it takes out X/3. Factory and B2B does not have sinergy, but the same is true for the Quicksand as well. Factory is more versatile on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
@ C.P:
I meant orienting, not copying the list from the article ;)Quote:
You must be joking if you're trying to say that the BBS in that article is way too go...lol
For sure I would not run the full playset Powder Kegs for example.
I wouldn't even play this version without the Mox.
But I think relying on this "Lock"-Components is Modern's strength.
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadaj
But here comes the question from Maximus04: 4th Mox or not?
With the 4th, you maximize your chance of having one in the opening hand to make that 1st turn Chalice happen or they give the possiblity of first turn Counterspell/Mana Leak.
The problem I see is that every version of MUC has the problem of answering a dangerous 1st turn thread on the draw without the Force in an acceptable way.
Traditional has Force Spike getting dead as the game goes on, Modern the Mox creating disadvantage.
//EDIT:
Mana Leak vs. Rune Snag.
I noticed like C.P:
In the early game, Mana Leak means 3 Turns delay for the opponent to cast his/her spell without the risk getting it leaked.
That turn usually means a Mana and a card more for the MUC-player what is a very big difference.
In addition, with B2B Leak does not loose its strength so hard and in Counterwars Leak is always a very annoying card for the enemy not rarley ending in winning the war for the MUC-player.
Doks
Now I'm back to the traditional build. What I notice now is that the deck can handle vast range of decks and does not have a bad matchup except mean ol' Solidarity.
So here is the ultimate question: How do you beat solidarity with traditional MUC?
The addition of factory gave the deck slightly better clock. Now Things like Mana Maze or Arcane Lab actually win you the game. With factory, I felt that the Teferi is not need much.
So what sideboard options can you use?
1. Arcane Lab: 3 mana and being an enchantment is slow, but does the job once it is out. It really helps against those pesky Remand. The downside is that you cannot play any spell first after this resolves.
2. Chalice of Void: strong, also useful against thresh and burn. Not very useful by itself, or if it hits the board too late.
3. Dandan: A reasonable clock. Not very useful in other matchups.
4. Teferi: Good, and it will win you the game, but expensive and slow. Having flash does help, though.
The traditional build of MUC literally cannot beat Solidarity. It, frankly, won't happen. Hell, even the modern build will likely get its ass handed to it by Solidarity, and it plays MD chalice with ways of getting it out on turn 1, as opposed to traditional, which can only play Chalice at 1 on turn 2.
As much as I'm all for constructive discussion on how to improve matchups, this is one matchup that is just hopeless, especially for the traditional build of MUC. Hell, if I ran traditional MUC in a tournament I wouldn't board for Solidarity at all. I would just concede and move on. Your only hope is having 2 or 3 forces in hand with food for them and getting Teferi and Lab lock down. Beyond that, you're fucked. And even then, chances are you'll never actually resolve that.
However, if you really want to board aggressively for Solidarity 4 Lab and 3-4 Teferi are a good start for the Traditional Build. Anything else is likely overkill.
Even for "Traditional Build" I would suggest the Factory-Beatdown.
Siding the B2Bs out for Labs and maybe add some Chalices.
That hopefully will slow them down enough to give you time for 9-10 attacks.
Otherwise, my "strategy" is not to be paired against Soli ;)
I wouldn't care about this MU so hard. It's the same option some U/W Landstill players prefer. Just hope that Soli is kept down on the lower tables by Aggro and Sui or that Soli is not played that much (what it actually is).
Neither you're going to board aggressively - as Kadaj mentioned - or do not pay too much attention to the MU and make others safer.
Some other thing:
I'd like to advocate everyone to test Kadaj's way of 4 Impulse and 4 FoF ánd therefore cutting Brainstorm (making slots free).
If you do not like it, return to your personal preference, but I am going to try it out at Germany's next Dülmen after some testing behind me.
Doks
Sry 4 double post, but I will present some results I did today at Germany's Dülmen.
I went 5:0:2 (Draw against Goblins and Pox (o.O)).
I beat 3 Rock/Survial, R/W Anti-Landstill.dec and - more important - Solidarity.
The List (Kratzeis.dec):
MB:
19 Island
3 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Repeal
2 Powder Keg
2 Back to Basics
3 Morphling
SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Powder Keg
1 Spell Snare
Some notes on the Soli MU:
He takes a Mulligan down to three. That were very good conditions ;)
But game two I took a mulligan.
Here appears the strength of a lowered land count:
I let the High Tides resolve and concentrate on countering the first draw spell.
As I resolve a Chalice for 1 he concedes when I drop the Morphling and he has just one Cunning Wish left.
The Survival/Rock-MUs worked out all the same:
First getting hit by Duress/Therapy, then just recover and hurt them with B2B.
Drop a Shackles/Morphling, counter the Deed and go for the win.
General:
B2B MB are just good - the opponent is thrown back several turns.
It just generates so much tempo advantage and buys time.
And rapes players who do not care about basic back up =P
Spell Snare is great, too - very useful against Soli (;)), Survival, Werebear, Hymne, Sink Hole, Small Pox, Remand etc. oO
For just one blue Mana (!).
Vedalken Shackles as a 3-of were the right choice.
Even in the harder Control-MU they stalled the Board and prevented Mishra's Factories vom damaging me too much.
So far,
Doks
Very interesting build. But why no brainstorm when you run CotV in SB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doks
Other than that, it look promising. gotta try the build.
Two reasons:Quote:
But why no brainstorm when you run CotV in SB
1. To make CotV totally one-sided after boarding.
2. I did not want to thin out the deck with Fetches, which are indeed needed if you run Brainstorm. If you don't have the possibility to shuffle, I felt the 2 cards you put back on the top of the library to be disturbing, just like stopping the fluency of your game.
The argument to make 1-land-hands keepable is mostly irrelevant - I mulled every Hand without two sources of mana - except one game where the risk was worth it ;)
Some other notes:
I really <3 4 FoF - you're going to chain from one into the other.
And in this version they are very strong, as with this low landcount the quality (quality in form of concentration of Spells) of cards is very high (had about 40% FoF with just 1 or no (!) Mana Source) which is just broken as it makes FoF much harder to pile.
The Impulse were great too, but I was very happy that I had two additional TfK on board.
This Compilation runs very smooth.
The Moxen are worth their slots, but I can remember them winning me just 1 game - against the Goblins as 1st turn counter are what you need.
I could imagine cutting them and bumping the land count by 1-2, making 1-2 slots free (4th Spell Snare is a very hot candidate!).
Doks
Congrats on doing so well at the tournament. Some questions and observations about your deck.
Why made you decide chalice needed to come out of the side instead of being mainboard?
I still don't understand how you can win against the solidarity? Your match up is very week game 1. Post Side, the match up does improve with chalice, but how do you put them on a clock to win?
What made you decide against Ophidians?
Do you think the 4th mox is needed? Can you still have an explosive start with only 3?
Isn't Force Spike better than Spell Snare since it doesn't limit the countering to just 2CC?
_________________________________________________________________
I do see your points with the 4th FoF and with such a low land count. It does get better on the flop :) I'll try out your build and let you know how it goes for me.
Well, I thought Chalice MB to be a good idea. So far, so good. But that was it *full stop*.Quote:
Why made you decide chalice needed to come out of the side instead of being mainboard?
Take a second look on the chalice: Do you fluff sth. gamebreaking against the majority of decks?
I think Kadaj posted sth. that sounded like this:
"Don't MB Chalice if you can not be sure that it pays off. If Chalice ist just an idea that may sound good, do not MB it."
There I think he is right.
Against decks like thresh/non-Soli-combo, Chalice MB is a bomb.
But I think you can not play it because of the assumption you MAY be paired against them.
Any other Counter would do the same job, but better as it can counter any other single spell.
I always wanted to try out the Spell Snare und it was just an impulse to try it - and it did very well, it was a direct hit in 6 out of 7 Rounds.
Spell Snare counters the target spell without any condition. Counters that get very weak as you get into the later game are bad and risk your control.Quote:
Isn't Force Spike better than Spell Snare since it doesn't limit the countering to just 2CC?
And isn't Chrome Mox like a Force Spike accelerating into 1st trun CC2 counter?
In addition, against every deck except Goblins it is at least useful.
Survival/Sui/BW-Confidant/Hannifish/Grow/Solidarity: they all run 4-X CC2 spells you really want to deny.
At the moment I can imagine a build with more CC2 countermagic (Rune Snag in addition to Mana Leak).
Therefore, we'd have to tweak the deck and the 4th Mox becomes very attractive:
What do you mean by explosive start?Quote:
Do you think the 4th mox is needed? Can you still have an explosive start with only 3?
For me, Chrome Mox serves following things:
1. Accelerating into turn 1 countermagic, making Force Spike needless.
2. Accelerating into an early FoF - there is a big different if it comes down EOT turn 3 or 4.
3. Protection against Boil/Sinkhole/Armageddon.
4. Less used, but still an option: playing like accelerated blue the early Morphling.
I really like a Mox in the opening hand, but running 4 means:
1. Higher chance to have 2 in the opening hand
2. Draws that are dead until the TfK comes
First game, my opponent took a Mulligan down to three on the play - giving me 5 cards more than my opponent.Quote:
I still don't understand how you can win against the solidarity? Your match up is very week game 1. Post Side, the match up does improve with chalice, but how do you put them on a clock to win?
I do not "waste" much space to the SB for Soli.
I follow a very simple plan I used to play some month ago:
I let all the Tides resolve, giving me the possibility to play all my countermagic against them, then counter the first business spell.
During their EOT, I play FoF/Thirst/Impulse and rise the counters in my hand.
The process above repeats some more times:
They will try again to start a "mini"-combo and I end up winning the counterwar, thanks to Spell Snare against their Impulse/Resets.
I did not have any pressure - I just wait until I have about 10 Mana open and play the Morphling.
Post-board, Chalice did a good job, I then proceeded as in game 1.
The last tournament I found Ophid to be the reason of my unsatisfying performance:Quote:
What made you decide against Ophidians
1. It turns the deck into another direction, Forbiddian. I found MUC to be more Draw-Go style, which Ophid does not fit in.
EOT FoF is more powerful than a Phid the enemy can response to.
2. Without Chalice MB, every common spot removal kills Phid.
3. Blockers: e.g., the Sui player had just a tiny weeny Withering Wretch: Preventing my Phid from coming through.
I am very tired, if you do not get the point, don't hesitate to ask a second time. ;)
So long,
Doks
wow... so inactive. i take that as a bad sign? any new developments? have the newer sets affected MUC greatly? or is it destined to be mid tier in legacy?
The deck is just is still around...It Top 8'd at a GPT, so don't entirely dismiss it. I wouldn't be surprised if It makes a comeback at the Grand Prix this weekend.
From what I hear...the deck has involved much since this thread died, right Doks? :wink:
I actually think MUC could do quite well. MUC's biggest weakness IMO is that the win condition was not fast enough. But I have been trying to incorporate flash. Thoughs on a list. Mine is very rough, but I think it could work.
Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polltued Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
7 Island
Combo 9
4 Flash
4 Hulk
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Kiki
1 Karmic Guide
Draw 12
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
Control 18
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Misdirection
2 Counterspell
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
SB
4 Pongify
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Morphling
4 Fact or Fiction
The SB is really bad. Pongify is mirror tech. And Summoner's Pact is for Gobbos to win quickly. The last 7 were there for the hate to board in against aggro-control decks. I just threw in some of my favorite cards. Thoughts.
Looks like a Mono-U Hulk Flash Jak. *lol* ;)
Last Germany's Dülmen with MUC (not a good result, don't want to talk about that -.-')
There is a problem but it's not the speed, it's the cost.Quote:
MUC's biggest weakness IMO is that the win condition was not fast enough
The moment you tap (out?) for a Morphling MUC has a hard time to keep control with 5 Mana less, especially the boardposition.
Usually, after Morphling resolves, the opponent can drop Meddling Mages/Werebears/Mongeese they would otherwise have kept and you still loose the game even if you have Superman on the board now.
Therefore, I added a Single Teferi that does not only wreak opponent's countermagic but solves the above problem, too.
That could be right guy =PQuote:
From what I hear...the deck has involved much since this thread died, right Doks?
But for now I am waiting for the Columbus results this Weekend as it is a very meaningful event with all the new decks that may now show their strength (Hannifish, Hulk Smash any1?)
Greetz,
Doks
Yes that is what I mean. Costing five is not good. Which makes it slow when you need to get it down on turn 5, you leave yourself vulnerable.Quote:
There is a problem but it's not the speed, it's the cost.
And the deck is MUHF. LOL. Just thought it could be a win-con.
Been a while, guys.
What I found in the Hulk Meta is that you really want chalice to shut Duress, Extirpate, Cantrips, ETC down, as these cards are played frequently.
Solidarity is as good as dead, so the matchups got a lot better, though. B2B is still really strong against those fish type of decks, and same applies to shackles and keg.
About the HanniFish Matchup, I have a friend who was obsessed with the deck since last year, so I played against it quite a bit. The matchup is favorable(60%ish) assuming the traditional build with phids and no mox. Since everyone and their cats will be playing extirpate, that's the only thing that worries me.
EDIT: Oh, I've been playing against Jack Flash as well, and found that you need stifles or trickbinds somewhere. Stupid Hulk.
At least the modern version (Mox: yes, Chalice: no) has a rough MU against Hannfish as my experience was.
1st Turn Duress, 2nd Turn Mage, then Needle (naming Shackles/Keg) und avenger ftw -.-
Because of Daze they win the early important counterwars leaving your stronger countermagic in the mid - lategame irrelevant until the trash is on the board. (0:2 against FlodO)
So what does the "Traditional Build" have cards that make the MU so much better?
(Anyway, newer developments may change this as Maximus04 mentioned).
Therefore, I can "reveal" some techs that have proven very power - and useful:
1. Spell Snare. As I wrote before, this is such a strong choice in the whole legacy format, I simply do not want to miss.
It is something like a tempo boost (countering Werebear on the draw for U) as it is a tool in counterwars as my next choice is:
2. Misdirection
Awesome, nice synergy with Teferi (forcing him through EOT or redirecting Swords in the opponent's Mainphase) but more important hosing aggro-control (NQG/Hannifish) and Sui/Pikula/Deadguy/Ying&Yang/etc.
Currently I am running this:
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Misdirection (-1 MD, + 1 Leak if you go for the full set of Moxen).
I run 4 FoF and 3 TfK to regain cards pitched to FoW/MD/Mox.
Doks
This deck really looks interesting. I've always favored control tye strategies and this Draw-Go is the king of everything control. :)
A few questions though:
How is your Hulk Flash match-up? I guess you need stifles/ trickbinds...is the current maindecked permission enough of an answer? And is chalice for two against flash feasible?
What is the optimum amount of permission spells to run? Are they enough to fight against most forms of control?
Optimum win condition?
I think a mix of mrphlings and teferi with a set of Factories might be the way to go. (Aside: I know the Solidarity match sucks, won't Tefer make that better?)
How is your match-up against fish agro control decks? Won't the fast beatdown coupled with free countermagic give MUC fits?
And how do you fight against black-style disruption decks like deadguy ale or pox? Are they favorable?
I might really adopt this deck, it looks really cheap to build and is promising to become top tier in a combo metagame.
Chalice for 2 is a bad idea because, although it does cut HulkFlash off from its namesake card, it cuts you off from the bulk of your countermagic. Teferi is not all that great against Solidarity due to costing 5, and equally bad against everything else for the same reason. Factory is good in the builds not running Back to Basics, but I'd argue that in the current metagame infested with 3 color aggro control builds not running Back to Basics are strictly inferior to the ones that are.
MUC really shouldn't be playing Morphling until it has around 8 lands in play, leaving enough open for a counter, a free counter, and the activation of Morphling's untargetability. I've been testing MUC constantly since HulkFlash reared its head because I firmly believe that maindecking as much countermagic and some combination of stifles/trickbinds should make the matchup good, while still keeping Keg, Shackles, and B2B as the way to keep your matchups against aggro-control workable.
My question is, which to play? Trickbind or Stifle? Stifle costing 1 as opposed to 2 is a huge advantage, but Trickbind doesn't leave the option of countering it open. Perhaps a split between the two?