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Tacosnape
If you were to face RW Rifter what would your s/b and gameplan be, either of your sideboard variants?
Having played vs Rifter recently, my experience was that your only chance to win is deck them, as both decks are good at nailing each others win conditions. But I was unable to do so, as he always sneaked something when I run out of answers.
This is one of those matchups where I enjoy my MD Krosan Grips.
The gameplan I think would be to Stifle their Decrees, counter/Deed the Rifts, and swords their Dragons. Humility isn't even a concern. I don't think this match up would be that difficult. Post-board you could put Plague on Soldiers, and then just work on keeping them off Rifts and Dragons. Swords is their only removal you should worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Congrats on your split, Taco, and that was definitely an interesting SB.
Anarky87
and they can sword our win conditions too. Not to mention Humility does affect your manlands. And they can Slice&Dice them.
There's Akroma's Vengeace and Disenchant to deal with Plagues/Deeds
Humility does not affect the manlands' size. I think might affect First Strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
No, Humility doesn't affect your manlands. But MattH might be right, it might remove the first strike from Monastery. Other than that, Swords is all you really care about, as I said in my previous post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Vengeance costs 6 mana to use and really doesn't affect your board at all, and Disenchant doesn't matter all that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
For starters, congrats on the split Taco; especially with the "creative" SB. Stifle > scepter chant =)
I'm pretty sure man-lands become 1/1 with no abilities when humility is in play, because they ARE creatures...
I'm not so sure we should write off Nev's Disk so quickly. It is rare that i cast deed, and activate it the same turn, which means "comes into play tapped" isn't a huge factor. Also, considering disk destroys everything for 5 mana, it is ussually on a lower curve than deed (most the time i deed for 3). Not to mention, it is colorless, making it "easier" to cast. Although, in my testing of Taco's list, i almost never end up colorscrewed (except against land hate).
That is one problem i have been having with the 4c. Many decks run wasteland, and have become rather annoying. Even if i topdeck a stifle, 1 waste can be enough for a serious setback. Although, sometimes it isn't a big problem, and you can deal with it pretty easily. I advocate 2 crucibles/LftL, especially in the 4c, but maybe that is just me. By the way, have we come to a conclusion about crucible vrs loam, i have had better luck with crucible...?
Despite everyone going for the 4c list, I think the Ubg version is just as good. i guess it sacrafices a little speed for consistancy. I always find myself digging for a Haunting Echoes, and i always missed them when playing 4c. I never really missed StP, despite it being "the best removal spell in the game". Meddling mage was a big loss though, bigger than i had imagined. Monestaries were not as important as i had thought. It really takes a while to get thresh, and a 2mana activation is pretty expensive; by the time i utilize the monasteries, i am already winning, so i really haven't felt much of a difference without them. I'm continueing to test both...
From our own card rules forums:Quote:
Originally Posted by honz
Hence, Humility has no affect on Manlands.Quote:
This how it works with Humility and Factory:
Both Humility and Factory's power/toughness setting abilities would take place in layer 6b so they are applied in time stamp order. So whichever one happened most recently (humility coming into play or activating the factory would take precedence). So normally a factory would be a 2/2 that can't tap for mana or pump when a humility is in play and you turned it into a creature. The only time it would be a 1/1 is if humility came into play after factory was a creature and only for the duration of that turn, future activations would make it a 2/2.
I think Anarky's pretty much got the major concepts, here. And Humility doesn't affect the Monestary's First Strike, but it does affect the Mishra's Factory's ability to pump itself while it's a creature, as the activation of the creature isn't in itself granting the ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Anarky's pretty close, but there's a few other points you have to mention here.
1. Never play a Standstill, ever. Board them out after game one. I know from experience you can't ever be sure you're going to have the advantage there.
2. You don't always have to Stifle the Decree. Handling it with Pernicious Deed is also acceptable.
3. If you can, save Crime for a Lightning Rift. This is a completely ridiculous play and easily one of the coolest things I've ever Crimed.
You won't have much to counter game 1, so I suggest heavily that you save your counters for two spells and two spells only: Lightning Rift, and a hardcast Decree of Justice. Postboard Rifter can get mean, as they tend to pack Red blasts, Pulse of the Fields, and Boil. Your plan is as follows:
+3 Meddling Mage
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Extirpate
-4 Diabolic Edict
-4 Standstill
Meddling Mage comes in because Rifter will almost always board out its Humilities and Pyroclasms here. There isn't really a particular card you should always name with it, but I'd generally suggest Boil. If he gets killed, it's not a big deal. He mostly comes in so you don't lose to time and because the cards you board out absolutely suck.
Blue Elemental Blasts will counter Lightning Rift, Boil, and their Red Blasts.
Extirpate owns Rifter hardcore. Aim for Dragon first, Pulse of the Fields second, and Rift or Decree third.
And whatever the hell you do, if Rifter has four lands untapped, do not tap out EOT beyond your ability to safely counter Boil. I've watched countless players walk right into this while casting a Fact or Fiction. Boil is an instant, and you would do well to remember that most Boils resolve on the caster's end step due to carelessness. Don't forget you may need two counters for Boil, as they'll save their Blasts to try and make sure it gets through.
Rifter can be a tricky match as your card advantage is limited, so play smart and make the most of your Fact or Fictions. But 4C Landstill has all the tools to deal with Rifter's threats and then some.
EDIT: As far as removing your threats goes, Loam will fix this. Rifter only runs four Swords to your six-seven manlands, and you only need one to go the distance. If you get in a bind, counter a Swords. Mage can help some too.
I can't emphasize enough that you should almost never spend countermagic protecting your manlands. The only exceptions are if you know you're facing Extirpate (Or similar Graveyard hate), you're near being decked, or if you die immediately if you don't. The whole point of running Life from the Loam is that it's insurance and lets you spend all your countermagic dealing with their threats and not their answers.
Not like it means anything, but I just won the #magic-league trial with the deck:
http://www.magic-league.com/tourname...389&view=decks
The COP:Red in the s/b is the metagame tech and it worked out fine, as I faced double goblin (I lost both first games, only to steamroll them after the s/b), burn, and UGR Counterbalance/Top/Goyf. The deck was a beast.
Freaking Sweet! Congratulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
After viewing the decklists, I must agree COP: Red was a perfect call for that metagame. I've never seen so many freaking burn decks in a tournament in my life.
Were the quad Stifles worth it to you?
Absolutely! I'd have Ringleader/Matron/SiegeGang resolve anyday and be stifled than to have their abilties resolve and then use that fourth Diabolic Edict. Especially if I have Plague or COP running. And it certainly helps fight wasteland too.
Its about as useless as edict vs properly built burn, but at least its able to fight suspended rift bolts. As for UGR *****, it really wasn't much of a use, but it helped vs his fetches and just pitched to FoW. I guess it would have been useful vs top, but I never let it resolve. I had more removal than he had creatures anyway.
I'll just put a mini-report there:
Report.
Round 1. Bye
Round 2. Kaesh with mono red Goblins.
Game 1. He wins the die roll, I keep a questionable hand, but I don't know what he's playing so it seems okay. He starts with Mountain/Lackey, and I have to Stifle it next turn. He then attempts to play a Vial, but I counter it with topdecked FoW. I then drop Factory in attempt to defend against Lackey, he merely drops fanatic. I topdeck StP and then lay a fetch. Next turn he drops Port (omg) and attacks with lackey. I activate factory just to have him use port and then play StP. The next few turns He swings with fanatic, I counter warchief, he drops Gempalm Incenerator, then I play Perdeed, he drops another Incenerator and I'm forced to crack it eot, as my life points are getting low. I cast another PerDeed. Next turn he plays Matron for Warchief (I've got no counters or stifle), tries to attack, but I StP Warchief. And its about the point where I get almost defenseless. He swings with Matron, then plays lackey. I have no answers and i'm forced to sac perdeed EOT again. I play Standstill, next turn he plays SiegeGang, I topdeck PerDeed off Standstill, have no counters, I'm at five life, and next turn I'm forced to use PerDeed to kill tokens. He then plays Pyromancer, attacks with SiegeGang, and its GG.
Game2. -4 Standstill (I never find it that useful in goblin matchup) -2 Counterspell -1 Fact -1 Stifle / +3 BEB, +3Plague +2 COP:Red
I kick off FoWing his vial off wasteland, then stifling his second wasteland. He then used first wasteland, leaving me one land and him with nothing. I then play a land, next turn he casts Lackey off Mountain, but I had the Plague ready for it. A few turns we were topdecking, he was stuck on 2 lands, attempted to cast Piledriver, but I met it with Edict. Next turn I dropped Monastery, EOT casted Fact or Fiction to reveal Brainstorm/Loam/COP:Red/StP/Tundra. He then conceded.
Game3. He gets a bad draw and mulligans to 5. Then leads with lackey. I StP it on my turn. He then casts Vial. Turn later I drop the Plague. He's stuck on one land, I drop Factory, cast PerDeed and blow it for vial. He only has one mountain in play and in a few turns eventually concedes as I beat him down with factory.
I think he's been a bit rushing on conceding, but on other hand he's been mono red, and I just had the means to stall the game easily to the point there I can cast second plague.
Round 3. Aekhold with green splashed Goblins.
Game1. I win the die roll and lead with Tundra. He tries to wasteland it, but I Stifle. I proceed with factory, but he has another wasteland to follow. I use the mana to cast brainstorm, and my Tundra goes to grave. We lay fetch next turn, and then he gets third Wasteland, this time on Factory. I put another one, but I'm stuck on Factory and Underground sea, watching as he lays down mountains. He cats Warchief, but I edict it. Next turn I finally topdeck Tropical Island (my last land in that game) and cast PerDeed. He goes Warchief/Lackey on his turn and I just have to FoW Lackey. next turn he casts Ringleader, and I have no answers. I cast edict In reponse to get rid of warchief. He gets 3 cards off ringleader and swings. I'm down to 9 life. I don't have the mana to blow PerDeed, and I topdeck StP (I already have one). Lol. No Tundras/fetches for me. Next turn he drops Port (so I can't even block with Factory), casts another Ringleader, netting another 3 cards and I'm down to 5. I get another StP on topdeck. He swings for 4 again next turn, I'm down to 1 and he casts Fanatic to finish me off. How pitiful. I'm stuck with 3 StP in hand and Deed on board.
Game 2. Same S/B as the previous round. I'm not too fond of using Meddling Mage against Krosan Grip, it just seems a waste of space :-/ Really dunno. I go first and his lackey is met with BEB. I then lay down the factory, he puts another Mountain in play, but has no 1/2cc drops. I put down 2nd factory and start swinging. He misses 3rd land drop and then drops fanatic, but as I have two factories he can only block and point 1 in my face. Next turn he drops port, and casts Blood Moon. I'm scared for my life. I did never expect that. Luckily I have BEB to counter it. Pheewww. I realize I have no outs for Blood Moon except counters/PerDeed on table. So I attack with one Factory getting him down to 10 and leave and leave 5 mana open for pitchless FoW. He attempts to go for Warchief, but I counter it. I drop the Monastery and then attack with factories getting him down to 6 and then cast the topdecked PerDeed. He gets to draw and then concedes.
Game3. He starts with fanatic. Swings with it a few times, then tries to cast Matron which I Counterspell. I then drop PerDeed. He then casts Blood Moon. Ha ha. Well I have to blow it and here goes fanatic as well. He cats another Matron but I FoW it. A turn later I StP Piledriver and then drop Plague. Then he tries to cast Kiki Jiki but I BEB it. Next turn he casts Siege Gang and I let it (1/1 for 5 mana is not that good I hear ^_^) and cast Fact or Fiction which nets me COP:Red and Land after split. I really need to start beat him down now, but I just don't have my man lands. In a few next turns I countrspell matron, Edict his SiegeGang and topdeck factory which gets ported down each turn anyway. I StP another SiegeGang, finally get another factory and start swinging for 3 each turn (as he attempts to tap down one factory - I use it to pump another). He gets wasteland, but I already have loam, so that slows me down for one turn. Next few turns I stifle his ringleader, he uses it to block factory further delaying me, but I still have factory going. He's down to 7 and I stifle another Matron. He's down to 4 and tries Warchief but I StP it. Next turn he tries ringleader again, but I cast Fact or Fiction in response which nets me BEB and I counter Ringleader. Swing with factory 2 more times and here's the win. At this points I'm down to like 9 cards in library, and I still haven't found the second Plague or Monasteries. Glad he has not found Blood Moons or Krosan Grips though.
Round 4. Phyrexian with mono red Burn.
Game1. I win the die roll and get the very bad hand at stopping burn. Long story short, as its mostly boring, he gets me down to 5 life points, while I start to swing with two factories. At that point I let resolve Flamebreak dropping me to 2, then counter FiBEBlast with FoW. Down to 1. Jeez. He needs any burn spell to finish me off. Surprisingly he topdecks 2 mountains in a row and that's just as enough for me to finish him with factories.
Game2. -4 Perdeed -3 Edicts, -4Stifle / +3Meddling Mage, +3 COP:Red +3 BEB +2Extirpate. He lays down Pithing Needle for Factory first turn. Haha! I got a nice draw with Mage, BEB, Still, COP:Red, so I drop Circle of Protection and then start swinging with Meddling Mage. At some point he casts Flames of the Blood Hand, but I Extirpate it EOT, so I'm safe with my COP:Red now. I get him down to 8 before he eventually decides to get rid of Mage. I then drop Monastery and attempt to swing with it. He tries to FiBEBlast it, I BEB it, he FiBEBlasts again and I FoW it, and he's stuck on 1 land, 4 life, 3 cards in hand and concedes. He shows me these cards, and these appear to be 3 Ball Lightnings. Haha.
Round 5. georgjorge with UGR Threshold/Top/Balance
Game 1. We merely lay lands first 2 turns, then I cast Standstill, he Brainstorms, then FoWs it, I FoW back and it sticks. He tries to cast Top next turn, I break Standstill and FoW it. He then casts Tarmogoyf which I let to resolve, only to Edict it next turn. He then casts Mongoose which I Counterspell but he Dazes and it resolves. However I have Threshold by the time and start swinging with my monestary. he attempts to get Fledgling Dragon on table but I Counterspell it. Next turn I drop PerDeed and get him down to 8. Two more turns and its over.
Game2. -1 Stifle/+1 Extirpate. Probably should have sided more Extirpates instead of stifle (as its really not much of a use here), especially considering he has so limited amount of win conditions, but oh well. It worked as is. That one was the longest game in the whole trial and lasted for 40 minutes straight. I'm not really to go through all that, just a few notes: I had a good start with massive card drawing but was lacking win conditions for a while. I countered all his attempts to get top on board, extirpated it, StPed/Edicted all the creatures he tried to stick. On other hand he's got the chain of cantrips going and eventually passed me in cards drawn. He struggled a lot to get a single successful Counterbalance trigger all the game (out of like 10 attempts). At the point of me having about 25 cards in library and him nearly 15-20 I finally got factory and a little bit later Monastery. The end was epic. He had 2 tarmogoys on table, I've been at 7 life, and had no removal. I however thought I'd easily block him with Factory/Monastery and then recur them via Loam. Unfortunately he had Ancient Grudge and I lost both lands to it and was down to 2 life (he had 4 at the moment). So I really needed the topdeck. On my turn I got Fact or Fiction, he attempted to counterbalance it - FoW which netted me no removal, but a brainstorm. I got PerDeed off it and casted. He attempted to counterbalance after breaking his fetch, but failed again, revealing same FoW. And so his only remaining creatures were gone and he had none left in the library. At this point he had 6 cards in it, and I had 15 in mine.
It's a shame you didn't get to Crime the Counterbalance. That'd have been hilarious.
Still, that's a bizarre metagame. And I think I'd have a hard time ever cutting a sideboard below four Mages. I like the third Extirpate though. I might work on having to squeeze that in.
This saturday im goign to try out 4c Landstill with a side of
4x Meddling Mage
4x BEB
4x E.Plauge
3x Tormod's Crypt
and i made a change , i know this soudns crazy but i think 4 deeds is a bit much so i took out the 4th deed for a crucible i maybe wrong but i wanna test it out , i missed Crucible x.x
Ill post my results , Wish me luck ^^
Dear God, don't cut a Deed. Pernicious Deed is what makes this deck live. I'd cut just about anything short of Force and Brainstorm before cutting Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimated
Why Crypt over Extirpate?
I am in complete agreement with Taco, don't cut Deed for anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimated
I'd be careful with that sideboard for this weekend, too. Last week there were 3-4 Landstill decks, 0 Goblins, couple of *****, 1 Burn, 1 Empty the Slogger. Saturday's field will probably be similar, so I really don't think you need Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Trudeau
About manlands and every thing is related to humility. Humility removes everything that is not included in the ability of animation. For instance, monastery will be 4/4 G/W with first strike but won't be able to generate mana. As well, conclave will be a 2/1 with flying blue creature unable to produce mana. The most important concerns the mishra factories that cannot boost themselves as they lose the ability to boost workers.
As for the deckbuilding, I have not followed deeply what has been said on this forum, so my apologies by advance if my build does not fit with your previous advises.
According to my experience (I don't pretend to be exhaustive); there are 2 ways to build a competitive landstill deck. Both are dominated with blue.
The first plays also a lot of white in order to build a hard lock on creature based decks with humility/moat. It does not play standstill as it does not really need CA. Actually, the deck is based on a lock. Then you fly over with your conclaves for the win. The problems of such a strategy :
- completely inefficient lock against creature-less decks and too slow kill to win in either way, even with the counterspell pack that such a deck allows (I play between 12 and 16 in this deck).
- some creature-based decks can still own you, with wonder or equipments placed on conclaves (it has been a time when FS played conclave and it was really awful to have to counterspell all their equipements)
- krosan grip has made this deck harder to maintain, even if dovescape is the last piece of the combo (and it's your only chance against combo decks).
- if your opponent plays wisely his set of wastelands faster than you, you won't be able to kill your opponent before the decks are empty.
Here is an example of such a deck, but it can be built in other ways.
// Lands
3 [P3] Island (2)
3 [P3] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [A] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [UL] Faerie Conclave
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Spells
4 |IA] Swords To Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [TE] Humility
4 [LG] Moat
1 [WL] Aura of Silence
3 [WL] Disrupt
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [DIS] Dovescape
2 [FD] Condescend
3 [VI] Impulse
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Counterspell
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [WL] Disrupt
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [TE] Warmth
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [SC] Stabilizer
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
The other possibility for landstill does not need white to perform. The only (but not the least) good card in white is STP (maybe meddling mage in SB too). It's based on standstill and FoF card advantage and mass removal such as deed and punishment. I play 1 tundra just to be able to play crime in case of. This deck is more classical and will find more adhesion here I guess.
// Lands
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [A] Swamp (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [U] Tundra
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
2 [A] Island (1)
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Bayou
1 [A] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [6E] Counterspell
3 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [US] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
@Urabahn: Despite the fact that Nick Trudeau has almost no credibility left and that I disagree with him on almost every point about 4C Landstill, I have to fully agree here. The deck indeed lives and breathes Pernicious Deed.
@Maveric: You're more or less dead on. I would simplify it to say that there's two types of Landstill: Board-sweeping, and Board-locking. The former uses Disk and Deed and keeps everything but lands off the board. The latter will often try to use enchantments or artifacts to help control things.
This is also further fodder for the Crucible/Loam argument. I believe you play Loam in the Board-sweeping Landstills and Crucible in the board-locking.
I think that's an oversimplification. I also think both of those builds are pretty bad, but that's neither here nor there. Once again, for consideration, I'll post my most current build of Landstill:
EPIC UGW Landstill
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Horizon Canopy - I'm testing it. Usually is a Savannah.
2 Wasteland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Meta Slot - Decree of Justice/Mana Leak/Pulse of the Fields/Humility/EE
Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Arcane Laboratory
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Tormod's Crypt
This list probably falls under the Lock style in the above, but it's more equipped to play Aggro-control than any list I've seen in the last 3 or so pages.
I play Nightmare's list, but with oen difference: I dont run Brainstorm. I dont run Brainstorm because almost all the cards in Landstill function the same way, so whats the point of running a card that enables card quality when all the cards serve the same function anyway? Instead, I run more Fact or Fictions since the only things that matter to me are quantity.
I know RayD3 did this for awhile with some success, and I have been playing his Landstill build for a long time. Now I run UWg instead of his old UWr build, just because EE and Monasteries are ballin'. Thanks to EPIC, we have Humility maindecked, which already convinces me that it's better than the BHWC builds.
Here's my build for discussion since I already outlined my theory on not running Brainstorm...
// Lands 25
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
2 Island
// Spells 35
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard 15
3 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
I am a firm believer in the man plan, and of course, I would like to also talk about how fucking busted Chalice and the entire Anti-Combo plan is. The rest is standard, and so far, I have been very happy with the build.