If you're considering Shriekmaw, look into Volrath's Stronghold, because that land is like a ghetto Library of Alexandria in the control/aggro-control mirror.
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If you're considering Shriekmaw, look into Volrath's Stronghold, because that land is like a ghetto Library of Alexandria in the control/aggro-control mirror.
Counterbalance shooting blind is a ghetto Library of Alexandria.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Actually, with a Shriekmaw on top, it counters Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I'm not sure reanimation is necessary in this deck, much less reanimation like Volrath's Stronghold. If you're absolutely desperate for reanimation in this deck, I'd consider the options in this order:
Unearth
Life//Death
Grim Harvest
Everything else
At least Grim Harvest is recurrable without messing with your counter engine.
EDIT: I'm also interested in Machinus's list now. Predict is by far the weakest draw spell I run, and I've been looking at cutting it but afraid of doing so because I like the card advantage in a deck where every other draw spell is card parity. The use of Night's Whisper briefly crossed my mind, but...seems bad.
There was a time when Predict was the best possible way of generating more than one resource a turn. But Counterbalance is so good that it breaks down the symetry, and provides more card advantage than Predict could ever hope to match. Combine that with Thoughtseize and you have a very deadly set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Let's assume that I don't run Counterbalance because I use Pernicious Deed instead. Any other suggestions? I mean, I guess I could include Counterbalance in the sideboard, but I'm not sure I'd side it in against Threshold much when Deed already r0xx0rz that deck's s0xx0rz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
More importantly, Black Thresh already has a 2cc card advantage spell - it's called Dark Confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Prepare to fully assume the control role, a la Truffle Shuffle. Extra removal, Engineered Explosives, discard, big finishers (Tombstalkers). Take out the tempo cards, like Daze and Stifle. Also, if your (Deed+Explosives) total is high enough, say 5-6, you don't even need to bring in Krosan Grip to deal with Counterbalance. Try not to get them eaten by your opponent's Grips, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_Zombies
Resolving and protecting Dark Confidant is the absolute priority. In my experience, you can beat an opponent with CounterTop online if you have Dark Confidant online.
Well, that was the philosophy the deck was taking at this point in time anyway. Playing as a Thresh deck with the ability to play the mirror's worst matchup as well is very strong. I suppose I could go back to testing Bob, but life loss had been an issue for me in the past. With my version's lower curve and the presence of Top (no Counterbalance, though), I think it may be useful to run him again. I'll try it at my local tournament this weekend and put up results here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I've been messing around with this list. It's good and fast.
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Ponder
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Smother
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Psychatog
2 Tombstalker
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Misdirection
1 Naturalize
1 Berserk
Thoughtseizes are extremely flexible. Mental Note is to power out a quick Tomstalker and make Tog lethal quickly. Otherwise, it's a nice break from playing Threshold and pretty much plays the same. Give it a try.
Bardo, why is Smother in your list over Ghastly Demise? It seems inferior especially considering Mental Note.
-Slay
I love Ghastly Demise and used to run it in earlier version of the deck. I still think Demise is fine as a sideboard card, but I'd rather have Smother in the main. It's all match-up dependent, but Smother shines over Demise vs. Tog, B/x, Affinity, or trying to stop a turn-2 3/4 or 4/5 Goyf. Overall, Smother just hits more targets that you're likely to see.
Edit.
Testing update (from list above):
-1 Mental Note
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Psychatog
-1 Daze
-3 Smother
+4 Nimble Mongoose
+3 Pernicious Deed
Bardo, your list isn't TarmoTog, it's Black Threshold with extra removal and Togs instead of Confidants.
A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam. This gives it a great lategame, especially against aggro-control decks. Your list lacks the punch of EOT Intuition.
Yeah, I cut them back to 1, but not because of its interaction with the graveyard, which is rarely a problem (re: Goose, Goyf and Tog), I'm finding the BB in the casting cost prohibitive. It's sorta like the Fledgling Dragon Problem in Red Thresh--where you need a healthy amount of blue mana to keep the deck running, the primary threats are in green, so having double mana of your tertiary support color is a stretch. Honestly, I'm not even sure he's needed, the deck mainly just wins on the back of Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Though I did get a turn 4 kill yesterday with Tog + Wish/Berserk.Quote:
@Bardo: tombstalker is not good with mongoose and atog, he is just a finisher that let you play it with mana open to counterspell.
I'm not going to argue with what to call it. My deck started out as a Loam Tog deck, that incorporated Tarmogoyf and has becoming more "Gro-like" ever since.Quote:
Bardo, your list isn't TarmoTog, it's Black Threshold with extra removal and Togs instead of Confidants.
Well, that's Goaswerfraiejen's take on the deck. Mine's just quicker.Quote:
A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam.
It doesn't really want it. My list wants to commit threats, draw cards and win the game quickly. I'll definitely concede that the Intuition lists certainly have a better late game than mine.Quote:
Your list lacks the punch of EOT Intuition.
I'm convinced you should post in the Black Thresh thread. You said it yourself, "it's a nice break from playing Threshold and pretty much plays the same". Your deck is much closer to the ones in that thread, and I'd be interested in hearing how you fare with choices like maindeck Pernicious Deed and Thoughtseize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Moreover, from what you've written about White Thresh, it's generally known that you're a tempo/aggro player (see: Mental Note); in fact, I'm betting that you'll soon be cutting the Cunning Wishes. If you notice, every other list on this thread features that "tutor into broken recursion" aspect. TarmoTog only win fast if the opponent has a bad start and you draw enough countermagic for your opening creatures to go the distance; otherwise, it blows up the board and sets up to finish the opponent with a flying Gigapede.
Don't take these observation as an attack - Black Thresh is my favourite deck, TarmoTog one I enjoy, and randomly annoying people isn't one of my hobbies. I'm just pointing you in another direction, because your post was like someone dropping a Rifter decklist in a Wombat thread and commenting "My version splashes red for L-Rift. It's good and fast".
It's cool. I agree. Posts moved and merged. - Bardo
From Ray's TO report:Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
The Mana Leak Open III
(November 2007)
Christopher Coppola
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Sea Drake
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Yixalid Jailer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Dark Confidant
1 Counterbalance
Looks awesome. Well done, Chris.
Wow no Bobs main! That must be wrong! The dark side of the force should never be denied!
Yea. Sea Drake over Bob looks like.. a joke?
EDIT: Even Tombstalker looks better.
The Hatfields ran 2 Bobs main, over 2 Portents.
As for the list being a joke, Sea Drake is amazing in this deck. Don't diss it.
Sea Drake is evasive, so it obviously breaks stalemates. It's a 3c card for Counterbalance. Pitches to FoW. Let's see Tombstalker counter something that's 3c.
Let's see Tombstalker be countered in CounterTop wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Also, Stalker won't die to Smother, Ghastly Demise or Deed...
(and he do wins fights vs E.Angel, Serendib and Drake and can trade with Fledling Dragon)
Still, the BB in the casting cost might be a problem, as Bardo stated.
You predicted right - Cunning Wish isn't really pulling its weight. I dropped the Togs, Wishes and whole bunch of other stuff to fit in 3x Counterbalance / Divining Top and 4x Ghastly Demise. As long as your match-ups work out, Demise is great, not as good as StP, but serviceable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
Re: CounterTop - I'm sure other people are having mixed results with it too. The "combo," at times is such a bloody beating, at other times it does nothing and I'd so much rather have a regular old Counterspell than commiting mainphase permanents that can't attack and block. Like everything, it's going to be a "meta-call," but I'm not too impressed with it, even though many people have had a lot of success with it. Still needs more testing, but I might pack it in the sideboard and have a more flexible maindeck.
Re: Thoughtseize - It's weird, over the last few days of testing, I'd rather Thoughtseize was Duress. Between 8 fetchlands, Forces and especially Bob, the life loss is really getting noticeable and I'm usually nabbing non-dudes with Thoughtseize anyway. 'Might not be all it's cracked up to be, but again I still need to do a lot more testing with it.
I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but I'm not totally convinced that Sea Drake is amazing.Quote:
Sea Drake is amazing in this deck
From the top of my head, here's the pros and cons I see:
+Evasion (and decent clock)
+Counter 3cc spells with Counterbalance
+Pitches to FOW
+Reasonable cc (does not require threshold to have evasion, can be played early in the game if need be)
-The come into play trigger is counter-tempoish (especially when considering Daze EDIT: and Top)
-It can be easily killed (e.g. Bolt, Serra Avenger, etc.)
For my play style, I really prefer Tombstalker. Sure, he requires BB, but it's not that hard to obtain (when facing Wasteland and Port, you can keep a fetch in play and an Underground Sea/Fetch in hand). Anyhow, I'm sure either choice is good, you just have to adapt your play style. Good job to Chris.