[DTB] Vial Goblins

So recently MANY top players who have written articals about Goblins, are saying it's no longer the deck to play. It has many strengths and many weaknesses, and they say it's weaknesses are outweighing it's strengths.

Pro's:
Amazingly Consistent
Easy(er) to Play
Smashes bad/random decks
Great for Long Tournaments because of the above 2
Cards easy To Obtain

Con's:
Rolls over and dies to Combo Game 1 (don't flame yet wait for it...)
It's expected -> Hated
Combo is on the rise
Splashes make the deck less consistent and more "Wastable"


(dies to combo in the un-fixed lists...)


That said, i think that Goblins is still very viable meta choice. The main problem is that it dies to combo, but CotV, and P-SP have helped.



1) So are the pro's onto something and Goblins is dying? Or are CotV strong enough Maindeck to stop the combo's.

2) What is the best anti-Combo hate? (CotV, Pillar, Others?)

3) Is Goblins worth building and playing? Assuming a new player owns none of the cards, is the deck worth shilling out $80 for Drivers, $80 for Lacky's and then $ for duals for the splash?

4) Should Goblins be splashing? Or is CotV and Pillar and other Red cards good enough to handle it's problems?

1. Goblins is a deck that can win any match. Thats how it works but most adepts are trying to innovate as well as not play a deck that doesn't have as many options.

2. Both CotV and Pillar are needed as 4 ofs in some combo of main/sb

3. Where are you buying your cards $32 for lackey set and at most $48 for drivers.

4. Yes need to splash to deal with the hate cards such as e plague.

Goblins hasn't been the deck to play for several months. It might never be again, but one can't be sure.

In fact, I think the closest it has been to being such was in the Flash metagame, because you could pinpoint-tune the hate to give it almost a 50-50 Flash match and completely run over all the Flash-Hate aggro-control.

That said, Goblins is still a strong deck, and all hate focus aside, one of -the- strongest. It will resurface in about a year once people dose down the Goblin hate, but as of right now, I've seen people packing 7-10 cards in sideboard to deal with Goblins in 15-person tournaments where there are 0-1 Goblin decks. This is a gross example of paranoia overtaking common sense. The regrettable part is that Goblin players will suffer as a result of this.

Goblins, meanwhile, has to deal with four things:

1. Combo
2. Enchantments
3. Artifacts
4. Creatures that Pyrokinesis can't kill (Silver Knight / Tarmogoyf and the like)

Goblins' previous plan to deal with this has been as follows:
1. Chalice of the Void/Pyrostatic Pillar/Red Elemental Blast
2. Disenchant/Tranquil Domain/Krosan Grip/Ignoring all but Plague which is dealt with Goblin King, Shared Triumph, or Patron of the Akki.
3. Tin-Street Hooligan/Goblin Tinkerer/Disenchant/Krosan Grip/Shattering Spree
4. Swords to Plowshares/Ignoring them and swinging with a horde of 15+ Goblins.

Now here's what's wrong with several of those solutions in the modern metagame.

Chalice: Still pretty decent, but Simian Spirit Guide's printing made Chalice significantly weaker.
Pillar: Solidarity isn't the combo deck to beat anymore. Everything's either faster than Pillar or capable of circumventing it with Tendrils of Agony.
REB: The two top combo decks don't run Blue. Or, well, one doesn't run blue and the other runs Diminishing Returns. Zoop Zoop.
Disenchant: It's single-shot, counterable, and weakens Ringleader. Rarely worthwhile.
Ignoring Enchantments: Solitary Confinement is everywhere. So is Ghostly Prison. Plus, there are too many Plagues to effectively deal with by means other than removing them.
Ignoring un-Kinesisable creatures: The speed of non-goblin aggro and aggro-control has jumped up. This means you have less time to safely build up your horde.

Swords to Plowshares, Tranquil Domain, Krosan Grip, and Tin-Street Hooligan all remain viable options to solve their problems. Chalice is still fairly solid also, despite SSG hurting it a little.

So what we need are cards that deal with our four problems. So here are a few cards I suggest are worth looking at:

Engineered Explosives: Thanks to Empty the Warrens, this is one of the few cards that can be effective against all four of Goblins' biggest problems. In order to make it hit the biggest problem (Plague) however, you need three colors.

Cabal Therapy/Duress: Indisputably good against all forms of Combo, as well as helping against Artifacts and Enchantments. Therapy can also hit the creatures, like Tarmogoyf.

Vindicate: Untested and bizarre, it could work in some sort of RBW Goblins packing Explosives, Therapy, and Swords. Vindicate deals with all of Goblins' problems except for Combo.

Pithing Needle: An old favorite. Easy to cast and use. It deals with certain artifacts and enchantments and certain combo decks, as well as stopping other random things. Not overwhelmingly strong, but very versatile.

The trick in keeping goblins competitive, I feel, is finding the right sideboard/maindeck choice from a mixture of these cards and the current staples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

The trick in keeping goblins competitive, I feel, is finding the right sideboard/maindeck choice from a mixture of these cards and the current staples.

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I agree. However, there are only a certain number of slots that you can have for non-Goblins in the MD. That's the problem right there... Fitting in too many hate-the-hate cards just turns Goblins into a mediocre aggro deck.

That said, I'm finding the blue splash to be really strong. Stifles and Daze realy compliment the mana-denial theme, and SB bounce is really nice.

So is this deck really as dead as people make it out to be, I'm just curious for when the next legacy tourny rolls around I'll prob be playing this deck regardless of how awful it is. Also it seems like almost no decks are running Wasteland right now so a 3 color mana-base is easy to support. It worked well for me at the GP and it seems like it would be fine in the current meta.

Something like:
5 Duals - 3/2 split based on what is needed more
8 Fetches
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Port

A lot of players are saying right now that Goblins isn't that good in the current Legacy metagame. I do agree that Goblins may not be as good as it once was when combo was rarely played, but I think the deck is still very good that can win large tournaments.

As Wasteland has disappeared for the most part in the current Legacy metagame, I think it makes sense that you can play 2 splashes right now in Goblins if you choose. If you do decide on taking Goblins into a large tourney, I think it would make sense to have your Goblins build focus more on beating the combo matchup since that probably is your worse matchup.

Goblins will always show up in good numbers because it still is very good and no one can deny that.

I have played again goblins and have played them enough to now that vial goblins is posiably one of the best decks out there....but i still think it has a shitty match up again u/w control fish cause they both run a decnt amount of creatues but fish has the pro red guysa nd the jitts and swords and counter back up...and in my case i run wrath of god in my board.

UW fish with sliver knight is not a big problem, UWb fish with sliver + jitte + 4 plague SB is more hard to beat.
But please stop with WoG. A-NAR-CHY! It is your solution. Kill sliver, jotun and meddling and don't touch in your hord. anarchy + pyrokinesis in SB is THE solution against aggro and aggro-controle (except ******** or other treshgro).

Anarchy nothing. Engineered Explosives solves all of that jank. Goblins would be fine if we could just run like nine of them.:tongue:

My more recent stance on 3-color Goblins is to make it 2-color with a single random Dual thrown in strictly for bumping EE to 3. So, for example, if you're playing R/G, you do something like this:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

I'm currently playing R/B, though. In case its relevant.

What do you think about E.Explosives Maindeck? I made the experience that i want to board them in every Match...List would be like that:
4 Taiga
1 Plateau(to pump EE to 3):wink:
4 bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Waste
4 Rishadan Port

4 Warchief
4 Ringleade
4 matrone
4 Piledriver
4 Lackey
3 Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege Gang
1 Ib halfheart (Just incredible, not sure whether this guy or G.King)
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Tin-Street-hooligan (Jitte sucks)

4 AEther Vial
2 Engineered Explosives(Kills 1-2 Goofys and the whole fish deck, a maindeck solution for Empty the Warrens)

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Chalice of the VOid
1 TIn-Street Hooligan
1xxx

Greetz,NQN:wink:

I think EE Main isn't a terrible idea in Goblins. But not a great one either.

The thing about Goblins is basically this. It's essentially a 56-58 card deck (Lands, Vials, and Goblins) with a 17-19 card sideboard, where you get to maindeck 2-4 of your sideboard cards. This makes it very much a metagame or preference call as to what you maindeck.

Engineered Explosives gives you the random blind out against a lot of things you struggle to handle otherwise, like maindeck pro-red guys with Jittes, maindeck Solitary Confinements, maindeck Tarmogoyfs, and a fast Empty the Warrens.

However, it's worth noting that Engineered Explosives is a mana whore. It's generally going to take 3-4 mana to use to its normal capabilities, and occasionally 5. Goblins generally wants most of its maindeck nongoblin spells to cost between 0 and 2. The 2-mana slot has always been Goblins' weakest point (This is a large reason why Port goes so well in Goblins), and things that are 1 or 0 (Pyrokinesis, Crypt) are simply easy to cast.

Granted, you can split the Engineered Explosives up. But I still think its inclusion maindeck is debatable.

Well, i play in a metagame full of Fish and Grow decks where i want to board explosives in every game, so i think its worth the slot. My biggest problem preboard are 2 Tarmogoyfs(one isnt strong enough against my horde) and Jitte+Random Critter(TIn-Street...) and explosives can solve both and many more like EtW or DoJ token...
So far
NQN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NQN

Well, i play in a metagame full of Fish and Grow decks where i want to board explosives in every game, so i think its worth the slot. My biggest problem preboard are 2 Tarmogoyfs(one isnt strong enough against my horde) and Jitte+Random Critter(TIn-Street...) and explosives can solve both and many more like EtW or DoJ token...
So far
NQN

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stp is THE solution against deck with only one or two threats. Add 4 pyrokinesis in SB (against all aggro, aggro-controle without blue and EtW) and 1 sharp MD and you have consistents solutions.

Our splash with 4 color is really incredible. Just for one card you broke the mana base. You play a deck with a monocolor base and YOU have the mana denial option. So you want a lot of moutains in play.
EE is similar to chalice. He have a potential against all decks but he destroy to card you control, is to hard to cast. So when you think about they you think they are solution against 60% of the metagame. But test they, is not the reality.

As a Gro player, I find EE less of a problem that StoP. Most Gro builds I've seen lately run 2 Needles maindeck (+ 3-4 Stifle), so there is a chance that EE's activated ability will either not bet usable or will get countered.

Against EtW decks, some Goblin players in my area have started to put Tremor in their SB; I don't know if it's overkill... Depends on the meta I guess...

At the duel land open (a side event for the PT) I saw a RB goblins deck, it was facing off with pikula...

I saw the most janky thing on the planet, and was wondering if it would need any consideration for the goblin community, he played an enchantment (the goblin player did) called dralnu's crusade.

an enchantment that makes all goblins also zombies, as well as giving them all +1/+1.

Would this be a decent answer against E.Plague?

he ended up getting 3 of these out with the pikula player only having 2 plagues (simply put, the pikula player got raped over time)... It just seems like worthless jank to me, but who knows.

It's not all -that- Janky. A guy whose name has temporarily escaped my mind ran two in a sideboard of RB Goblins in a tournament that has also temporarily escaped my mind and took first place.

(Goes and looks all that up)

Ok, Bennett Toms, at Running Gagg 2.

I personally wouldn't run it, but then again, Bennett Toms is probably a better player than me.

@Taco - First, Bennett Toms is most definitely not a better player than you - just believe me on this one...

Second, Dralnu's Crusade is incredibly janky and terrible, however, it is one of the few options available to R/b to fight Engineered Plague. This is one of the reasons that R/g is preferred in most metagames (Krosan Grip is a much more versatile card than Dralnu's Crusade and can answer things ranging from engineered plagues, moats, ensnaring bridges, humilities, ..., etc.). If my metagame warranted the black splash (i.e. too much Belcher, etc.), I think I would choose to play a deck other than goblins, as to avoid having to play shitty cards like Dralnu's Crusade just to battle potential Engineered Plagues.

Isn't just better to run Goblin King?

Or are you debating running Dralnu's Crusade in addition to Goblin King?

King is a creature and always dies. He's horrible at fighting Plague, especially since a second Plague nails him as well and makes him dead. Dralnu's is a mainstay anti-Plague card in Rb, and one of the very few alternatives (mostly just Patron of the Akki). Unfortunately you're forced to run it in straight Rb since you have little else in terms of alternatives and you can't rely on discard to nail Plagues effectively enough.

I did an elaborate listing of sideboarding alternatives with Goblins at MTGS on request, starting with Artifacts and Red cards, then going progressively through the four other colours. If you're interested or would find such useful, look here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...05#post2110605

That list doesn't include Goblin Caves. If the purpose is to avoid Engineered Plague, I think it would be better than splashing black (unless the opponent runs sinkhole, which very few do).

EDIT: Dralnu's Crusade is as bad under 2 Engineered Plague as goblin king, so I'm a bit lost here about your points.