[DTB] Vial Goblins

I would feel that you could cut the mogg fanatics or sharpshooters since goblins would now be a combo deck becuase you now have an combo-like clock and you dont need to ping away stuff since all your guys get a free pass. This combo-life feel would mean that Chrome Mox has to find its way into the deck.

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Less conjecture. More testing.

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Something that could not be said enough.

On a slightly related side note, if anyone wants to test, just PM or AIM me. I would love to test this out against the gauntlet.

The first thing to go would be Pyromancer; King serves a similiar function without the card disadvantage and adds sometimes-evasion.

After that? Prospector. Man that card is so weak. And wala, all the card disadvantage cards have disappeared.

Some testresults with one king MD, one SB:

Against RGSA :
It changes the way you play the deck. You just play as a combo deck, assemble all the pieces and go off in one turn. After SB it limits the damage of pyroclasm. The goblin king can be considered a key component in battling any aggro-control decks with red. ps:Always hit the mana critters with your fanatics.

Against landstill :
Blood moon is not really an option, it is quite slow and you have to face a counterwall, beb's and disenchants. It just lacks punch. Reb is a better option. King is less vital in this matchup. The blood moon + king combo is too hard to get/keep on the table.

@Landstill; Did it change anything vs. Factory?

Goblin King seems poor in fighting against Pyroclasm, without two, you can't effectively beat Clasm. They play the clasm dealing two damage to each critter, killing your King and knocking the rest down to 2 toughness critters killing them all too.

Goblin king seems too good not to play simply due to the fact that he's basicly an 'I win' card against pretty much every survival dec., and also in the Mirror. I haven't tested him enough yet to give a final verdict but one seems to be a must! His strength against plague( the best hozer for this dec imo) is just an aded bonus! The only problem I see is that you allready have 9 3 drops so you might not wan't him in your mana curve.

Another topic I would like to bring up is Umezawa's Jitte. The card is obviously very powerful but does it deserve a spot in the dec? Since any card that is not a goblin has to be really worthvile(haha). The top8 dec at Big Arse ran a pair and it seemed to have worked there!
At first I was very sceptical but the more I think about it, the more it apeals to me. Some reasons:
- It cost 2 mana and fills a hole in most gobllin decs mana curve, since most decs run only piledrivers and maybe sparksmith and even more maybe flunkies
- equiping men while operating on vial is agood thing!
- It can handle pro red critters if it had counters before they hit play
- It gives the dec a recurable source of creature removal, wich is never bad!
- Having a jitte on the board no longer forces you to overcommit as much in the landstill matchup
- It gives you access to life gain wich comes in handy for the burn matchup wich isn't exactly the greatest
Cons:
- It's not a Goblin!
- It doesnt do much in Combo matchups!(and Solidarity seems to be one of the suckier matchups)

Maybee the dude(forgot his name) who played the dec at big arse could chime in on this!

On another note people have been claiming that goblins suck vs. Landstill!
Do you generally share this sentiment? My extensive testing of the matchup showed that it was about even with a slight advantage for the goblin player! Allthough we had a three colour Landstill build that ran disk instead of wrath and had 4 fire/ice wich are definitely superb in the matchup, but maybe wrath makes al the difference?
Maybe people are just assuming the mathup is good since the average goblin player is probably less skilled than the average landstill player, and from my expierience skill was a very deciding factor in the games that weren't over by turn 6.

I disagree with the sentiment that Goblin King is "I Win" in the mirror, as you need to win the turn you play him to not give your opponent an overwhelming advantage through pumping his goblins and giving them Mountainwalk. He gives your opponents a turn to assemble and swing with an unblockable, and likely lethal, Alpha Strike if you can't kill them the turn you drop him....soo... How is he "I Win" in the mirror? Vial him out on their endstep and clean house on your turn? Sure, I can see that.... but if you play him regularly a majority of the time, you're going to get bitten in the ass for it.

Also, Most people I know agree with the sentiment that Landstill is one of Goblins worse, if not the worst, matchups. Wrath of God can mean all the difference in the world, as it doesn't sit on the board and give you a turn like Disk and it doesn't take forever like Vengeance. I will agree, however, that the matchup is primarily determined on the playskill of the pilots behind the decks. I've found in most of my testing against some pretty skilled Landstill players that I can eek wins out by capitalizing on their bad hands, but it requires skill on your part to notice what they're lacking and the luck that your hand is fast enough to capitalize and race the Wrath.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the deck have access to Prospector, Siege Gang, Sparksmith, & Gempalm (as well as possibly Jitte) to remove a non-fatal Goblin King? Admittedly Sparky & Gempalm are not optimal, but you certainly aren't lacking in ways to drop, pound, then remove. What do the experts on the subject say about Jitte? It seems versatile enough to be considered for any aggro deck, is its lack of Goblinocity too much for this deck?

Jitte has been amazing. Spatula + Team Scrabs agrees that it greatly improves the matchups of almost all of the top decks in the format. It becomes your answer to Humility, its a boon to Survival decks, it gains a lot of life against Sligh, and against the mirror it tends to win the game. The list we are running includes 6 non-land, non-goblin cards, 2 Jitte and of course 4 Vial. We ended up cutting it down to one consistently unimpressive Skirk Prospector in order to make room for the equipment, and it has been just great. Mat told me that it helped greatly him make top4.

Another card we have been testing is 1-2 Rishadan Ports in addition to Wasteland. It means cutting the deck down to 15-16 red sources, but Mat claims the added disruption has been invaluable to him.

This is probably a minor note, but Gempalm is never sub-optimal. It's one of the strongest cards in the deck, almost always gaining card advantage. Sparksmith is poo though.

Jitte seems pretty good right now, giving you a big advantage against creature based decks and a way around Humility and/or Reverence. I think Goblin King might need that spot once he gets errata'd though.

@CA - Goblin King is like Overrun in the mirror; you really shouldn't play him until you're going to win. He may clutter up your hand in the meantime, but the advantages seem worth that slight drawback.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

@CA - Goblin King is like Overrun in the mirror; you really shouldn't play him until you're going to win. He may clutter up your hand in the meantime, but the advantages seem worth that slight drawback.

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While true, and I agree with this, I'd rather have Pyromancer in the mirror. Being able to play conservatively, drop Pyromancer and Alpha Strike, then have the board get Wrathed is kinda hot. Having this happen even once will cause your opponent to stop and overthink what he's doing, forcing him to either overextend into another Pyromancer (played during his turn, post combat even via Vial) or underextend and have you swing for the fences, and the win. King on the other hand doesn't give the same kind of boost for an Alpha, nor does it clear the board to keep you from getting grilled afterwards.

@Scrumm: Again, true, but the Prospector and SGC are really the only options for removing a King after an Alpha. I'd really, REALLY loathe to waste a Gempalm to kill the King, and Sparksmith might as well be letting them attack on their turn with the amount of damage it could theoretically cause.

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Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel

While true, and I agree with this, I'd rather have Pyromancer in the mirror. Being able to play conservatively, drop Pyromancer and Alpha Strike, then have the board get Wrathed is kinda hot. Having this happen even once will cause your opponent to stop and overthink what he's doing, forcing him to either overextend into another Pyromancer (played during his turn, post combat even via Vial) or underextend and have you swing for the fences, and the win. King on the other hand doesn't give the same kind of boost for an Alpha, nor does it clear the board to keep you from getting grilled afterwards.

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I agree that Pyromancer is better in the mirror, but it's weaker vs control and Survival decks; in fact, it's a liability vs control.

It can be, but it's always been a possible sideboard option when entering a metagame that enjoys playing various combo, as well as the potential for the mirror match. Goblin King will likely take maindeck slots due to it's strengths, but I still believe that it'd be more likely to see it boarded out for Pyromancer or Sharpshooter in the mirror.

I agree. Although King does make a Sharpshooter a little trickier in the mirror.

The simple fact that, unless your opponent is also playing goblins, the king is always a fair deal for 3 mana makes it a way better main dec card than the pyromancer, who can be a dead card quite often, or worse can end in disaster if played uncarefully. In certain metagames(say only goblins+combo) he might be better but otherwise i'll go for the walking, and tutorable crusade+unblockable against 60-70 percent of all creature decs any day!
And I really don't want to hear anything about every removal spell in the format handling him...
@ Angel: Your statements about the fast wraths are true but you are neglecting the fact that
a) Disk kills vial wich does really really unfair things in the landstill matchups
b) wrath costs WW which can be a problem with only 12 or so white sources (if my memory serves me correctly) especially vs. 4 wastelands

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Originally Posted by mackaber

The simple fact that, unless your opponent is also playing goblins, the king is always a fair deal for 3 mana makes it a way better main dec card than the pyromancer, who can be a dead card quite often, or worse can end in disaster if played uncarefully. In certain metagames(say only goblins+combo) he might be better but otherwise i'll go for the walking, and tutorable crusade+unblockable against 60-70 percent of all creature decs any day!
And I really don't want to hear anything about every removal spell in the format handling him...
@ Angel: Your statements about the fast wraths are true but you are neglecting the fact that
a) Disk kills vial wich does really really unfair things in the landstill matchups
b) wrath costs WW which can be a problem with only 12 or so white sources (if my memory serves me correctly) especially vs. 4 wastelands

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I already said that King would be maindecked and the Pyromancer would be (as it always has been) a sideboard option, particularly to be boarded in during the mirror match, combo matchups, maybe even control matchups. Moving on to your concerns about Landstill.

I'm not neglecting anything. I know Disk/Vengeance kills Vial...Everyone knows that. The point I was making is that Vial Goblins can consistantly Goldfish by turn 4-5. Some Landstill players try to counter/remove the Main threats ASAP, others will sit there and stop your initial rush with Manlands and Wrath while drawing as you break standstill, in either case.... Tapping out to play Disk on turn 4 against Vial Goblins is a risky venture, at best, since you are giving them an extra turn to Blow their load all over your face. I don't fear Disk on turn 4, I fear Wrath on Turn 4.

Disk killing Vial is nearly irrelevant, considering Landstill also has Disenchant and Countermagic. Both of these do a damn fine Job at stopping the Vial.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1121796544

To cut Pyromancer for King (in the maindeck) is a mistake, as to cut Pyromancer removes a significant option from the deck; you can no longer go into the Matron -> win option. Yeah, King gives you some sort of the same bonus, but King is vulnerable to removal, and the bonus is not as pronounced.

Goblin King is also completely awful in the Goblin mirror; you have to drop him and have your opponent not have removal in a matchup that is all about who can get Vial and Gempalm advantage in a situation where the board has stalled. (Hint: the board should not consist of a bunch of creatures looking at each other. If it does, someone is playing wrong.) If you play him and drop an alpha strike, and all of a sudden all your creatures lose evasion, you're in a really tight spot if you were in a position where the board was stalled. Pyromancer has the added bonus of suddenly making your opponent need removal RIGHT NOW and acting as a psuedo-Wrath sometimes.

Pyromancer is also pretty fine against Landstill; it's like six or nine more free damage. Obviously the fact that infinite wrath effects is really bad for you is more of a problem than anything else.

CA was basically right about Disk being a lot worse than Wrath against Landstill. Disk is sloooooooooooooooooooow. When it's your only effective mass removal (You're going to be dead before you can Vengeance, and even if you're not, the entire deck goes two for one. They'll have more creatures.) your opponent can just board in Mutations or Disenchants or whatever and blow it away before you can do anything with it. As for WW, well, don't be retarded and blow fetchlands when you don't have to and go find a basic.

If you failed to kill your opponent with Pyromancer, you probably played wrong, or they had multiple removal spells.

On a random note, Sparksmith isn't awful in the mirror, and Skirk Prospector is reeeeeeeeeally good. His usefulness goes down somewhat with Lackey, but sometimes your opponent actually has a blocker and you can't drop the turn two Warchief.



Edited By frogboy on 1121796633

Pyromancer is *terrible* against Landstill. Assuming you do it before the fourth turn Wrath, they can often StP your biggest threat(probably Warchief if you can afford to Matron->Pyromancer), take some damage, and use your Pyromancer as a WoG. After that, it's nothing but a liability. It's terrible in top-deck mode, and you *can't* cast it until you're going to win.

Sparksmith isn't just bad in the mirror; it's bad most of the time. It's slow removal that costs you a lot of life if you plan on winning. How on earth can you say it's not awful in the mirror? Each activation is going to cost about 6 life.

Prospector is the weakest card in the deck. While occasionally useful, I'd rather not have the card disadvantage. Most of the time it comes up is against combo, but that's not usually enough of a boost to race them; against combo, you're pretty much hinging your bets on Lackey. Against control, like Pyromancer, useless non-threats and card disadvantage are bad. Why the hell do I want to lose my Prospector + Warchief to a StP?

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If you play him and drop an alpha strike, and all of a sudden all your creatures lose evasion, you're in a really tight spot if you were in a position where the board was stalled.

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This is situationally true and reliant on the person with the Goblin King being a bad player.

Well, seeing as how you'd be using Pyromancer as your alpha strike, you'd play out two to three creatures, let them get wrathed away, and then eventually you'll be at a point where you have a couple creatures, they're at low life, you Matron up Pyromancer and go kill them.

Sparksmith is actually completely insane against UG Madness and ATS, since those decks actually can't remove permanents. It's also the best two-drop in the mirror, because it's activation will only cost you four life to kill their Warchief or Piledriver. Obviously, it's terrible to draw it when there's like twelve creatures on the board, but that situation doesn't come up a whole lot.

While Prospector is certainly the weakest card in the deck, it's by no means awful. I was trying to correct the impression that it's utter crap, which it really isn't.

But they're not always *at* low enough life that the Pyromancer will win the game, and usually not so low that a well-timed StP won't ruin that plan. And then some builds are even running DoJ.

I don't consider U/G much of a meta-concern, and while it may be good against ATS, so is Goblin King.

How can you say the situation where there's more than 4 goblins on the board doesn't come up often in the mirror? All they have to do is play a handful of goblins and suddenly your Sparksmith does more damage to you than any of their critters.

Prospector, in a vacuum, isn't awful. He is by far the weakest card in the deck, which makes him, relatively speaking, awful.