Could I get an explanation on why that is so? Is it because you get G more often than W?
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Could I get an explanation on why that is so? Is it because you get G more often than W?
Yes. Werebear produces green and not white.Quote:
Originally Posted by t3h.sWaRm
Also we do not need disenchant because of the lack of Dryad which it combos with. I still like Md naturalize because of all the good artifacts in the format at the moment. But hey I have been running this deck since Ian won and I have the 4 AK main still and find them some good.
Also, I believe that Furnace is the best answer for the mirror other than needle(which messes furnace up) which should be sided out in the mirror.
Personally I only like needle in the side because it can be very dead in some matchups I would rather have an Ak or something else. :D
What seems very relevant to me at least is the fact that you can Needle fetches. If nothing else you can wreck someones tempo and put you up to pace with them. I don't think there is a single deck that is immune to needle and I find myself calculating the perfect time to drop it in every matchup. It is a great card, it just doesn't save you if you don't drop it preemptively to the card you are going to hate out getting active.
But it also goes against gro's concept. Getting cards in the yard, sure it shuts your opponents cards down somewhat but it is a permanent that doesnt bash face. would rather have naturalize to kill a humilty or something and naturalize will go to the yard... Good
I'm with kadilak on this, I don't believe you shouldn't be running pithing needle in the MD to begin with. You should also not be running white, for so many reasons. Which have been stated already in the thread, So I won't repeat them. I disagree on naturalize MD though especially with stifle in your MD deck. IMHO it's either naturalize or stifle and stifle tends to be more handy, screwing up opponents tempo. What artifacts and enchantments does gro fear game 1? I will agree on kadilak with one more thing. Furnace should start appearing in more SB's due to the mirror match now. I've been running furnace since I started running the deck a 3 weeks ago. Yeah I know 3 weeks wooohoo, but I did top 7 at rochester.
This is not a threshold/cantrip theme deck. We play good cards that don't cost very much and a lot of cantrips-- that's it. Pithing Needle qualifies here and shutting down wasteland makes the deck work. Here's my logic--Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadishack
If everyone's lands only produce mana, you have the most efficient threats and disruption at the table.
Does that seem accurate enough? I see no problem with playing a proactive disruption card that shuts down problems for the deck and ways for other decks to deal with your cheap threats. Sign me up.
Wastedlife, I fully respect your accomplishments with Gro but don't let your recent successes intrude in the way of good logic. The best players will prove their points without just saying "I did this, did you?" This is why I say that Obfuscate Freely and MadZur are some of the better theorists about this deck, regardless of any tournament performances they may have. You can tell if people know what they're talking about by what they say, not what they do. I'd say the arguments have been pretty well outlined for playing white over red, and I'd also say that it's pretty ridiculous to claim that white is not playable. You've had some success with red, for sure, but don't discount the entire history and recent premier event performances of the deck, please.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as white is a terrible splash. I have tested against and with NQG with white over and over again. The deck tends to stall out because it can't kill it's opponent before the deck runs out of draw spells and counter magic. That's gro's weakness wait until their hand is dried out of good cards then play your stronger cards after bleeding out countermagic. Also I think NQG/w should run mongoose over mage MD which would make alot more sence than boarding in goose every round. Mage is only a 2/2 which slows the deck down alot. I understand it CAN name a card in thier grip, Unless you run peek by the way which I found to be very savage in the version with 4x mage 3x needle. But I think goose would just be a better option game 1 than mage, boarding in mage for the 2-3 match-ups you need it just makes more sence to me. Again, sorry if I come off the wrong way with my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridiculous Hat
Playing Goose main is a metagame decision that I would respect. I personally find Mage to be good, but if you were testing with Peek then I can see where the problem may be in terms of philosophy-- Mage and Needle aren't supposed to name what they have as opposed to what you don't want them to play. You don't want to shut down their short game, you want to shut down their answers, and Mage and Needle are both just as good there whether or not they're blind.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Also, the differences between UGr and UGw gro are not really all that much, you know--
-4 STP
-4 Mage
-2 Enforcer
+4 Bolt/Fire Ice/Magma Jet
+4 Mongoose
+2 Fledgling Dragon/Sea Drake
--plus the obvious changes in lands are what typically detail the differences. No difference in cantrips, just minor tweaks to the threat base (and if you maindeck Mongoose instead it's not a tweak at all) and burn instead of STP. I looked at your list of UGr and noticed that you played a huge amount of burn spells, so that may attribute the difference in a lot of what you played-- but how does UGr force through threats any better than UGw?
I really like Pyroclasm maindeck in the Red version. The virtual card advantage that card gives and the usefulness in pretty much every matchup makes it amazing. The only time it is almost useless is in the mirror match but at that point, you would be suffering the almost same uselessness if you were running any of the other 2 damage burn cards minus an extra 2 to the head.
Why is Naturalize better than Disenchant? My manabase looks like this:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
Which gives me 12 ways to get green, 3 of which get nonbasic green, and 12 ways to get white, 7 of which get nonbasic white. Shouldn't that make Disenchant strictly better than naturalize? You probably have a different manabase than me.
@ Red Splash: This is really a metagame call. You make some matchups better, and some worse, as has been said before. It has also been said that the White splash better handles an unknown field. As for running out of threats and not being able to kill your opponent, the only difference there between the red splash and white splash is that Red has two-three burn spells over the course of the game that can be dirrected at the dome. There aren't all that many situations in which this will be done, and in an absolute best case scenario it will speed your clock up by a turn. I've pretty much always found that Fledgling Dragon and Mystic Enforcer both usually spell a three turn clock, so in the end it's about the Meta.
Although it was answered up higher on this page, here it is. You run 4 ACTUAL White sources: 3 Tundra, 1 Plains. You run 8 ACTUAL Green sources: 3 Trop, 1 Forest and 4 WEREBEAR. Werebear taps for a Green, people.
The fact that he has a basic Plains probably makes Disenchant better, anyway. He has 7 ways of getting a basic Plains, which makes Disenchant more reliable.
The thing about Werebear tapping for green is that it requires green mana to cast.
I generally found naturalize to be easier to cast because you want to go for a green more often than you want to go for a white, but I don't see why either is right to play right now-- and if I were to pick an option, it would probably be Seal of Cleansing.
And see, I'm not a big fan of Seal of Cleansing. If you are running it and your opponent knows, what is stopping them from going: "Pithing Needle -> Seal of Cleansing" to protect whatever you would like to hit.
I'm not a big fan of Seal of Cleansing either, but I don't think there's any deck that you'd bring it in against that's running Pithing Needle. I mean, if we're discussing irrelevant cards re: disenchant/naturalize, at least play the best irrelevant card. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Gimbles
Fair enough on the Seal arguement. I don't see too many matches where I would want Seal over Pithing at all (given there are a few) and so at the moment I run one Naturalize and one Disenchant in the side for testing.
It does? wow..., you just rocked my world! If I ran the white version I'd personally run 1 and 1 in the SB. Because it avoids hate, and is harder to protect against. They can't mage and protect what they are trying to save, or other wierd times that that. As for seal of cleansing, Needle> the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare
The only card I'd like Naturalize in the board for is Humility. It's not really an issue in my meta right now, so there's not much of a need for Disenchant effects. I guess if you play IBA every week or something it's worth it though.
I'll check it out when I get back to the states next week, see what the meta is like and everything. Right now, I think I like Pithing Needle a *lot* more. I rarely see it dead in most matchups. Wastelands, Fetches, Manlands, Survival, Decree, Aether Vial, Gempalm, I've even hit Cranial Plating. I'm finding it pretty good :)